[Deck] The Rock

Thanks gentleman, that does help. I'm currently try to tune my sideboard and maindeck with eachother to be a well oiled machine. Limit the amount of dead cards in each matchup etc. so this is where I am at right now.

4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thougthseize
2 Therapy/IoK
3 Liliana of the Veil
38

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction

So for miracles, generally:
-2 StP -1 Jitte -2 Therapy/IoK? -1 something? Decay?
+2 Teeg +1 ETutor? +1 Needle +1 Choke +1 SoLaS

See there's a card missing to take out, which makes me think something isn't adjusted correctly.
I want the Tutor so I can shut them out if I want to with choke and have an emergency button for Jace or top
Pulse kills all the tokens and Jace etc
Teeg is god, and SoLaS protects him. I consider cutting Dryad arbor because of terminus etc, but being able to fetch him eot and equip is so good. But the fact I don't want to greensun zenith into her maybe means I should cut her.

Thoughts, plus list thoughts?

@matt
I've actually been thinking of running Nature's Claim for a bit. The tempo potential seems really good in all-but-the miracles MU; but I've been making what I'd call the "Innistrad Standard" version of the deck; which should have good game against Miracles.

My mild testing with Sorin says that he's an Ok replacement for equipment if you wish to run Lingering Souls but feel any weirdness. He can be a really slow stall card at times, but the synergy with Souls for an easy 8-12 power flying is too fun. Breaking Goyf stalls or enhancing the top end of your other stuff feels ok as well.

Not a huge fan of claim. I understand it is pretty awesome against equipment and such because leaving mana open for it doesn't project what you have, but being locked out by counterbalance/top, and being unable to kill a chalice seems like it is not worth it

I don't know many Miracles players who actually go through with boarding out Counterbalance, it's why they play the deck. STP is worse against them so I usually take that out for whatever extra hate I'm bringing in. Needle, Grip, Teeg, and Decay hit just about any Miracles wincon, even wonky stuff like Thopter Foundry. It's why we're so favored in the matchup.

I roughly agree, hence why I haven't put it in; though Chalice decks are rare and you don't need to side in dead cards against live ones.
Claim is good for Leylines and such too I should mention, which is a main attraction if he's speaking Omnitell. 3 Mana tax before discard can come online seems steep if you want to win against a deck that can go off T3 with ease and potentially sooner. If you don't have a hatebear in hand and they have a Leyline hand, you basically just lose. Claim can get you to discard town T2 no problem.

Claim is basically only worse in the super-fringe Chalice MU (where Decay and having a good deck should save you) and Miracles, but we could always find ways to buff that MU; you have plenty in your sideboard you don't bring in against them as it is.

Another way to go would be trying to find room for QPMs and maybe GSZs (overload the X against Miracles or chalice) but you'll have the same speed issue against Leylines.

Nature's Claim is... so unnecessary. Yes, it costs 1cc, but that has little bearing on its strategic effectiveness save against bad fringe decks. Many of which you care about the clock.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

-3 Dark Confidant

+1 Engineered Plague (on human, which hits all their creatures, hence boarding out Bob. Possible you could set it to elemental if Young Pyro has already gotten out of control)

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I would just like to note that this is a terrible plan with no reasonable justification. Yes, you could hit Engineered Plague and yes you could name Human and yes that would kill Dark Confidant, but then again, it's a one-of and if you windmill down an Engineered Plague it doesn't matter what the hell you've drawn, you win the war. Dark Confidant is remarkably good to the point where he is even relevant even in match-ups against Burn where losing life would ordinarily be counterintuitive. Any reason you could possibly come up with for cutting Dark Confidant is not a reasonable one, and this isn't even close to being one of the better bad reasons.

Assuming we're going off something relatively similar to your last posted list here (ie: no goyf similar core), there are quite a few different things you can and should do. However, strictly with regards to Dark Confidant, Nihil Spellbomb is a waste of slots. If it's your only option to delay a Treasure Cruise, sure, toss it in. I am in a few lists, though I find Relic is better since it can single-handedly shut down any Treasure Cruises beyond the first. But you have two Oozes mainboard, Gaddock Teegs, and a whole lot of discard that has dick and less to do after a while. In short, it's an investment that makes your deck inconsistent without returns other than overkill. I would even go as far to say that a Wasteland could come out for a Dark Confidant.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

Nature's Claim is... so unnecessary. Yes, it costs 1cc, but that has little bearing on its strategic effectiveness save against bad fringe decks. Many of which you care about the clock.

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I feel like you're missing the point. It's not there for Leylines the deck; it's a conversation on the potential for Omnitell to be a DTB again. It's there if you want a non-grip way to deal with Omnitell (or possibly S&T, D&T or some other deck that random'd into a Leyline of Sanctity.) In the case of S&T or Omnitell, you need it off the field in the early turns to interact with them reliably; thus having something cost two less is hugely relevant.

The fact that it has massive tempo gains against SFM decks means it's not irrelevant. The *only* reasons I see not to use it are:
-You forgot you're in legacy and think 4 life matters in a fair match.
-You need the slot for miracles and want it to be a naturalize effect so it's portable against other decks (and thus, Grip.)
-You face a lot of chalice decks

Also, Gripping through a Thalia vs. Claiming through a Thalia.. I feel like that's enough of a thing. It's also potentially relevant against Burn decks I should point out; especially against Smash to Smithereens (where a 7 point life swing is huge.)



I'm not claiming it's the end-all be-all of legacy; but dismissing it out of hand because of Chalice decks or because of life gain is retarded. Again, if you feel the slot belongs to Miracles, then ok. If you feel (in a month or three) that it belongs to Omnitell or some other LoS deck, it may be good to be allowed to target them. EDIT (in a meaningful timeframe.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I'm not claiming it's the end-all be-all of legacy; but dismissing it out of hand because of Chalice decks or because of life gain is retarded. Again, if you feel the slot belongs to Miracles, then ok. If you feel (in a month or three) that it belongs to Omnitell or some other LoS deck

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You make a pretty convincing argument, but I think I'll stick with Krosan Grip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I would just like to note that this is a terrible plan with no reasonable justification. Yes, you could hit Engineered Plague and yes you could name Human and yes that would kill Dark Confidant, but then again, it's a one-of and if you windmill down an Engineered Plague it doesn't matter what the hell you've drawn, you win the war. Dark Confidant is remarkably good to the point where he is even relevant even in match-ups against Burn where losing life would ordinarily be counterintuitive. Any reason you could possibly come up with for cutting Dark Confidant is not a reasonable one, and this isn't even close to being one of the better bad reasons.

Assuming we're going off something relatively similar to your last posted list here (ie: no goyf similar core), there are quite a few different things you can and should do. However, strictly with regards to Dark Confidant, Nihil Spellbomb is a waste of slots. If it's your only option to delay a Treasure Cruise, sure, toss it in. I am in a few lists, though I find Relic is better since it can single-handedly shut down any Treasure Cruises beyond the first. But you have two Oozes mainboard, Gaddock Teegs, and a whole lot of discard that has dick and less to do after a while. In short, it's an investment that makes your deck inconsistent without returns other than overkill. I would even go as far to say that a Wasteland could come out for a Dark Confidant.

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I also came up with it after 5 goldfish testing games... I just thought it was interesting to see how we would handle this "new" deck. Either way, board out bob or not, we are incredibly favored.

The only way we ever lose to that deck is by getting raced. They play 16 cantrips and are very light on removal and threats. Nothing has evasion but Delver. It's almost impossible for us to lose with our superior card quality. Doing damage to ourselves is really not so great.

We are bringing in three creatures to replace the Bob body. All three live in combat against elemental token or unbuffed swiftspear (this is very relevant). All three cut off the "advantage" they get from playing lots of cantrips: Teeg by shutting down "the big one" and Canonist by not letting them chain stuff into their Pyro or Swiftspear. Keeping in Thoughtseize allows us to take their impact cards and leave them digging for answers with their cantrips — if they can even cast them.

Anyway, do what you gotta if you play the deck. Honestly, as fun as it is to bash in with like a 5/6 swiftspear, I am a little surprised it won the open. I think UR is just well positioned against the open meta of other delver/blade decks because it's so fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by maharis

I also came up with it after 5 goldfish testing games... I just thought it was interesting to see how we would handle this "new" deck. Either way, board out bob or not, we are incredibly favored.

The only way we ever lose to that deck is by getting raced. They play 16 cantrips and are very light on removal and threats. Nothing has evasion but Delver. It's almost impossible for us to lose with our superior card quality. Doing damage to ourselves is really not so great.

We are bringing in three creatures to replace the Bob body. All three live in combat against elemental token or unbuffed swiftspear (this is very relevant). All three cut off the "advantage" they get from playing lots of cantrips: Teeg by shutting down "the big one" and Canonist by not letting them chain stuff into their Pyro or Swiftspear. Keeping in Thoughtseize allows us to take their impact cards and leave them digging for answers with their cantrips — if they can even cast them.

Anyway, do what you gotta if you play the deck. Honestly, as fun as it is to bash in with like a 5/6 swiftspear, I am a little surprised it won the open. I think UR is just well positioned against the open meta of other delver/blade decks because it's so fast.

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It won because Bob Huang is an excellent player who understands Legacy and the meta, and was playing Treasure Cruise before anyone was prepared for it.

As for Claim vs. Grip, the main arguments are:

1) Are you playing it against Miracles?
2) How much Thalia vs. Chalice of the Void are in your meta?
3) Where the OmniTell at?

Reasonably, Grip is at its best against Omni and Miracles. Being able to get rid of Top without waiting for a fetch is great. In addition, late game Miracles players, or good ones, can get around having their Top nuked by Decay.

Claim is cheaper to cast, and you could use the life gain in your favour, I agree. However, in certain matchups, you need to have it resolve. In Omni, they'll just Wish in response and get you anyway, or just counter it. Gripping Omni in response to Enter the Infinite is a hell of a play.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Claim is cheaper to cast, and you could use the life gain in your favour, I agree. However, in certain matchups, you need to have it resolve. In Omni, they'll just Wish in response and get you anyway, or just counter it. Gripping Omni in response to Enter the Infinite is a hell of a play.

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Hm, I'm unsure how I feel on this. I was thinking you were talking about Leyline of Sanctity. Gripping Omni itself sounds extraordinarily dangerous. It feels like they'd be able to dream halls or Omni again since they'll have S&T available again. Further, at the discard step they'll keep a perfect hand and go off again next turn (with Emmy shuffling the discard back into the library so you won't win off of card draw); won't they?

Unless I'm missing something important, it seems like they get to "Demonic Tutor for Seven" with the drawback that they got 2-for-1'd; hence why I was thinking you were talking about LoS and getting your discard in there (which is the only reason I brought up the card.)

Depends on the play situation. Sometimes you don't get the opportunity to blow up the Leyline EOT then start pouring in the discard, and you just have to go for it.

The best play is Gaddock Teeg. Gaddock Teeg, Meddling Mage, and Krosan Grip, backed by discard, is pretty game over for them.

I realize that post Enter the Infinite, they shall sculpt. But, buying a turn can win you....the game! Also, they don't have to discard all those lovely cards until next turn, but like I said, giving you time to lay down a Teeg or something could win you the game.

-Matt

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sdematt

It won because Bob Huang is an excellent player who understands Legacy and the meta, and was playing Treasure Cruise before anyone was prepared for it.

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Totally agree, didn't meant to imply otherwise. Bob is a great player. I just meant that I've found myself drawing cantrips into cantrips in noodling around with the deck. It's lots of fun and explosive, but I wouldn't want to play against a deck like ours packing Decay, Teeg, and Zealous Persecution in the 75.

Is it wrong to want to bring Toxic Deluge into the mix for this evolving meta? Assuming there's a surge in Cruise-Delver (the new UR thing) and Elves -- this card can just wipe the table.

UR is explosive and burn heavy but lacks protection. A well-timed removal spell ends them. I'm figuring Deluge can fire off for x = 2 or 3 to clear their board. Deluge is nuts against Elves -- letting you X-for-1 them at a minimal cost.

@Jain_Mor:
I like some of the ideas in your list. I think you have competing strategies in terms of threats. I'd personally push Sylvan instead of GSZ /Lingering/SFM as all 3 seek attention (Matt it correct is saying we need it).

I'm pretty big on Deluge in the side. Last Elves match I had I was a mana short for EE due to missing a land drop (competing DRSs and no fetches on my end slowed me down..) and Deluge would've eaten the Prog + Dudes and lead to a probable win. I've also had it in hand against Reanimator and had several times where a game was lost or close because I only had 1-at-a-time removal.

It's more on the control end of the spectrum; but I think it's good.

Thanks Warden, I designed it to make sure I always had a proactive play turn 1. Having 6 Goyfs is also amazing and 4 teegs out of the board seems necessary, so I'll be keeping the GSuns. SFM is one of the main reasons to play white, and without her souls fall a bit flat. So she stays. Souls are amazing with equipment but really slow in some matchups. They were in the sideboard previously. But I guess I can cut them completely. Without souls, dryad arbor becomes even more important as a creature that is instant speed and can always be around

-2 Souls, +1 Library +1 SFM/SoFaI/Lili/StP/nothing?

I'm sure Matt can give input here as well (regarding these last few posts). If you have SFM x3 and Equips x2, I think that's fine. I don't think the 4th SFM is needed to fetch out B.Skull and Jitte. Although souls is good, I don't think they would help against the new UR thing, plus bob pings you for quite a bunch (3 to the dome is a lot in general + this deck looks to blow you out fast).

-2 souls
+1 library (2nd one in main)
+1 teeg (turns off cruise, trouble for miracles, stops NO + opens room in SB for card #15) / stp #3?

That's how I read it. I could see F&I flex over pulse, but I think M.Pulse is well positioned right now as a catch-all + eats tokens. It also backs up your plan of 2 STP/4 Decay as removal #7. Could potentially shift to 3 STP/3 AD/1 Pulse...not sure how much of a ripple effect that is. And again, I like a lot of the ideas you presented.

I agree. I really want pulse right now. Thanks for the input.
I basically started my deck like this.
I want 6 1 mana discard spells
I want 6 mana dorks
I want 6 removal spells at least 2 must be 1 mana
4 goyfs
4 Bob
3-4lili/pulse
3 SFM+2Equip
And at least one library
Then fill in the blanks, which they're aren't many of haha. It's the sideboard where all the tweaking is tbh

It's actually a 61 card deck at the moment, so the 2nd souls doesn't have to be replace with anything.
I think if I were going to run a 1 of creature main deck it would Scooze (though we don't always have too much green mana out) or QPM, since he wins goyf wars, is a beater and his ability is randomly useful.

I always think about 3Stp/3Decay, but I decided I want my maindeck to be versatile as possible, and decay just hits more things. Playing StP is just a concession to creatures existing :P

Though that said, if I played QPM, that would relieve some pressure from decay and then I could play 3 StPs lowering my curve etc

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

I agree. I really want pulse right now. Thanks for the input.
I basically started my deck like this.
I want 6 1 mana discard spells
I want 6 mana dorks
I want 6 removal spells at least 2 must be 1 mana
4 goyfs
4 Bob
3-4lili/pulse
3 SFM+2Equip
And at least one library
Then fill in the blanks, which they're aren't many of haha. It's the sideboard where all the tweaking is tbh

It's actually a 61 card deck at the moment, so the 2nd souls doesn't have to be replace with anything.
I think if I were going to run a 1 of creature main deck it would Scooze (though we don't always have too much green mana out) or QPM, since he wins goyf wars, is a beater and his ability is randomly useful.

I always think about 3Stp/3Decay, but I decided I want my maindeck to be versatile as possible, and decay just hits more things. Playing StP is just a concession to creatures existing :P

Though that said, if I played QPM, that would relieve some pressure from decay and then I could play 3 StPs lowering my curve etc

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4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Lingering Souls

1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library

2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Thougthseize
2 Therapy/IoK
3 Liliana of the Veil
38

1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor
23

Sideboard:
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gadock Teeg
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Engineered Plague
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Humility
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Choke
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction

This is your current deck. The below is what it could be, and realistically, should be.

4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Lingering Souls
2 Green Sun's Zenith

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Dryad Arbor

I personally think you want to have the full 4 SFM, 3 Equipment for the fair matchups, and bring stuff out of the board to pound the unfair matchups. You're undervaluing how good STP is and how situationally good Pulse is. Cabal Therapy is fine in the main, but could easily be moved to the board. Your black mana ratio is a bit low, but you should be okay. Don't underestimate Sylvan Library.

Your sideboard need a bit of work, in my opinion. You don't need two tutors, that doesn't do a whole ton for you. Just play more good stuff. If you're dead set on the E. Tutor package, I'd go with the following:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Engineered Plague
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Spirit of the Labrynth/Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Safekeeper (since you're running more Zenith, this dude is a house against Miracles since he hardlocks and is great in the midrange mirrors)
1 Open (this could be Warmth if you expect some burn, more gravehate, Ensnaring Bridge for Sneak, etc.)

-Matt

Thanks Matt :)

The list you gave seems good (and I do want to try Safekeeper, even though I love SoLaS)
But how would you sideboard with that list against, say a stock miracles deck?
It seems like there are too many cards in your board that you would want, 2 needles, 3
teegs, 1 Safekeeper, grip? Spirit? And not enough cards to take out?

1 Jitte, 3 StP, 2 therapy? Is it the SFM package you take out? Cause then lingering souls is bad? I find souls and equipment really taxes their removal. But maybe you take all that out?

That's what I'm trying to base most concepts off, there's no point having Krosan grips in my board if I have no room to bring them in :/ I feel like I must be missing something obvious with the list you sent

I also think you're greatly underestimating Humility, it's one of my favourite
cards and can shut down so many decks :) Dredge, Elves,
goblins, Sneak and Show, Merfolk, etcetcetc even midrange decks if they don't have equipment like we do