Yup. The Helm-Grapeshot thing is used mainly to go around Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg. For every other hate creature (e.g. Glowrider, True Believer, etc.), they're easily answered with Slaughter Pact or basic bounce.
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Yup. The Helm-Grapeshot thing is used mainly to go around Meddling Mage/Gaddock Teeg. For every other hate creature (e.g. Glowrider, True Believer, etc.), they're easily answered with Slaughter Pact or basic bounce.
The card I hate the most is Ethersworn Cannonist. Holy crap does it suck. IMHO it's the best hate-bear for against storm.
Pce,
--DC
What decks honestly play him though? Is it even a meta concern yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
My meta is combo-heavy: Ichorid, ANT, Rainbow Tendrils, and Solidarity (lol). Ichorid is the least affected, but around here Ethersworn Cannonist is almost a necessity for a non-combo list (other than the dragon stompy list running around here; it does well fairly often as you can imagine). I've seen angelstax run it as well as some funk brew-esque lists. It seems to be better than Teeg. It's pretty difficult to handle as it takes about 2 turns to get rid of him unless your bounce spell is in-hand (tutor one turn and bounce eot before comboing off).
I'm saying look out when people realize it's potency.
Pce,
--DC
Last weekend I won through an onboard Canonist via Doomsday + Top. I passed the turn with a Top -> brainstorm on my opp's turn followed by helm + tops combo into an LED then a Grapeshot on my own turn. It requires BBB to hardcast Doomsday and another U from somewhere on your opp's turn (and the ability to survive a turn with half of your life). You need a minimum of 1 card left in your hand post-doomsday. (Brainstorm, Top, Helm, LED, Grapeshot) for those who are interested.
Hello everybody , I finally have found a list is the best one this list finally plays the full pacckage of brainstorm -ponder, and the correct number of AN.
Another possitive point is the inclusion of 3 krosan + 2 tropical to definitive handle those ***ing counterbalance.
these are the 3 points I find more important about other archetypes.
However I find as well some negative ones, I don't really find neccessary the inclusion of any bouncer , because mainly the uniques card that reallly **ck us is the chalice 1cc and c.b :
regarding to the first one we really need the bouncer in hand before it comes in to play otherwise we simply loose in 1st turn.
regarding to the second one we are supposed to loose unless the bouncer has split second or we play in response the tutor to the bouncer .
the other negative point is the supression of chrome mox.
having 4ponder 4 brainstorm we have now more possibilities of making the combo via mox , petal -> play mystical to tendrils-> play ponder or brainstorm -> play tendrils for the win.
In this other strategy is indispensable having full package of moxen I think
another point is the lack of something to handle burn in side.
well the aditions are simply -1 bouncer +1 moxen.
well the list is as follows:
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Orim's Chant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ad Nauseam
2 Duress
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Rushing River -1 bouncer +1 moxen.
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Krosan Grip
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Tropical Island
1 Duress
1 Brain Freeze
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Echoing Truth
1 I don't know what to take out but I'll add IGG
This deck is from Carlo Gnesoto I'd like him if he read this to tell me how to side exactly vs :
1) 3shold balanced
2) not balanced 3shold
3) team america
4) Landstill
5) agro loam with chalices
6)It's the fear
7) stuff with trinis and chalice
8) Mirror
9) dredge
10)gobbos
11) Discard effects
12) Burn
Well thanks a lot Carlo for getting better the deck with integillent additions.
I'll expect your request.
I like the list, my list looks very simular but some changes:
3 Mox
4 Durres
1 Adn
2 Sea
1 Island
2 Tundra
-If you play mox 4 times, you will have to mulligan a lot more, so I don't like it and play 3.
-I would recommend 4 Durres main. This is your answer to counterbalance/chalice if you are not playing bounce main.
-I play 1 Ad Nauseam main. I don't think I need more. I play so many protection that I can easaly win protected, so a seccond one will make me fizzle a lot more with Ad Nauseam.
- My mana base looks a bit different. I believe 2 basics is enough. And I have never needed a Scrubland yet, because I always want to cantrip/ play mystical tutor with al the lands I have.
The sideboard is hard to make. I am splashing red for pyroblasts en 1 ETW. But I think I will test green to, maybe krosan grip is just better.
Why you play Dark Confidant side?
EDIT: I play Angel's Grace side against Burn. It works just fine.
It is the worst one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark_Cynic87
Cannonist is the only card that can be handled with every anti-hate.
I was playing ANT (without Doomsday) against Affinity on a tournament. Serenity removed both, his board and his hate-bear, to my win in game 2 and game 3!
I really think a Meddling Mage would be much better than Cannonist in such a sideboard, especially because of Serenity.
Chrome Mox sucks plain and simple. It's the worst acceleration in the list, rarely being useful before Ad Nauseam. I'd cut 1 Mox, 1 Cabal Ritual and 1 River for another 2 Duress and 1 Wipe Away. Also, Chalice @ 1 is far from being game over. On the play, you have Mystical Tutor, Duress and timewalking Chant. Even if you can't do any of those, you can still combo without any 1cc pieces (Cabal, LED, IT, IGG).Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
You don't need to "handle burn in the side". I tested a list with 1 Infernal Tutor, 1 IGG and 1 Doomsday and went 8-2 pre-SB against a pretty standard burn list. If you are thinking of Angel's Grace, please don't. That card is completely useless. You only need something to deal with the cards burn will side in against you. The good news is that they become slower and lose threat density by playing those cards, while you may only need 1 Truth coming from the sideboard.
It can removed by everything, but it's the one with the worst effect, since that bear is not playable in control decks. Control can't play anything else other than Mage, which has a much more rewarding effect by being able to deny Chant. Anyway, Canonist requires you to either play Doomsday-go or fetch Slaughter Pact. Both slow you down and let you be much more vulnerable to racing. In my opinion, Canonist is the best bear available for Survival. If the opponent is not yet ready, he'll need 2 turns (saving EOT Mystical) to get rid of him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frenkill
Your case of Serenity wiping the board against Affinity is an exceptional one, since you won't bring Serenity only for this dude, and Affinity already sucks.
I'm running red, not white, and I'm playing straight AdN, no D-Day atm so no Top into artifact infi stack.
My only answer is Mystical into bounce, and that takes two turns for me. I suppose I mispoke when I said it's the worst, as it's simply the worst for me.
I'd like a good list, but I always try to squeeze too much in. I'm trying to get this disruption/protection package:
4x Pyroblast
4x Duress
0-2x Chant
0-1x Wipe Away
OR
0-1x Rushing River
and I'd like the D-Day combo as well...I need a good list. Mine blows. I loved my straight D-Day list, AdN screwed me all up. Any help would be highly appreciated. Like, seriously. It's bad.
Pce,
--DC
This is the hybrid I run, since I'm not a fan of the straight AdN lists:
4 Petal
4 D. Rit
4 C. Rit
4 LED
2 Chrom Mox
1 AdN
1 Doomsday
1 Meditate
3 IT
1 IGG
1 Tendrils
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Duress
1 Wipe Away
3 Chant/blast
4 Brainstorm
4 SDT
8 Fetch
2 Basics
1 scrub/badlands
1 tundra/volc
2 sea
SB: Any number of:
Serenity
Grapeshot/Helm of Awakening
Rushing River
Empty the Warrens
Pyroclasm
Sudden Shock
Echoing Truth
Wipe Away
Extirpate
Bob
I hate the low land count, but it's really necessary with the massive amount of accell. I also wish I could fit in 4 ponder for the TA matchup, but slots are so tight.
That being said, I run straight Doomsday or TES if I'm playing combo.
EDIT: Also, Wipe Away >>> R.River MB. All the time forever.
EDIT#2: While I'm brainstorming here, to remove the DDay from the list, just go:
-4 Top (that hurt to type)
-1 meditate
-1 dday
+4 ponder
+1 AdN
+1 Chant/Whatever/Land
Three is the correct number of Ad Nauseum in a non-Doomsday list. Yes, I know it sucks to flip them off an Ad Nauseum, but it's better to have an Ad Nauseum and flip one than to have no Ad Nauseum at all. Also, Ponder does not belong in non-Doomsday ANT, at least not over any number of Duress and Ad Nauseum. Here's why:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
If you really want to run Ponder, run three instead of one Chrome Mox, one Infernal Tutor, and one Lion's Eye Diamond. But I don't recommend running it at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kuma
Wipe Away deals with Counterbalance, also has split second, and doesn't require you to splash a color.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
We'll never beat a Chalice at one game one without running maindeck bounce.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Which is why you maindeck one Wipe Away, a bouncer with split second.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
How are either of those statements arguments for not running bounce in the maindeck? They seem to be reasons to run bounce.
I'll tell you how I side with my sideboard of:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Plains
4 Serenity
2 Echoing Truth
4 Dark Confidant
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Wipe Away
+4 Dark Confidant, +2 Wipe Away, -1 Chrome Mox, -2 Infernal Tutor, -1 Cabal Ritual, -2 Lion's Eye Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+4 Dark Confidant, +1 Plains, -1 Chrome Mox, -2 Infernal Tutor, -1 Lion's Eye Diamond, -1 Wipe Away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+4 Dark Confidant, +1 Plains, +2 Echoing Truth, -1 Wipe Away, -2 Chrome Mox, -2 Infernal Tutor, -2 Lion's Eye Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+1 Plains, +4 Dark Confidant, -1 Wipe Away, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Lion's Eye Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+1 Plains, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Dark Confidant, -4 Orim's Chant. (+4 Serenity, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Lion's Eye Diamond if they're playing a Solitary Confinement build) You can board in more Dark Confidant here if you think they took out all their creature removal, but I don't recommend it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+2 Wipe Away, +4 Dark Confidant, -2 Chrome Mox, -2 Infernal Tutor, -2 Lion's Eye Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+1 Plains, +4 Serenity, +1 Hurkyl's Recall, -4 Orim's Chant, -1 Wipe Away, -1 Infernal Tutor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
-1 Wipe Away, +1 Plains. +4 Dark Confidant, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Lion's Eye Diamond is also an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
-1 Wipe Away, -2 Chrome Mox, +2 Echoing Truth, +1 Ill-Gotten Gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
-1 Wipe Away, -1 Orim's Chant, +1 Plains, +1 Ill-Gotten Gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
It depends on the deck, but generally you want to side in Dark Confidant and Plains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
-1 Wipe Away, -1 Orim's Chant, +1 Plains, +1 Ill-Gotten Gains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
+1 Hurkyl's Recall, +3 Serenity, +1 Plains, +1 Echoing Truth, -2 Orim's Chant, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Lion's Eye Diamond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
@Kuma: You board in in almost every match the Plains in your SB. Why not cut a Mox or something else and run it on MD?
Same thing for Dark Confidant. :tongue:
@pelikanudo: send me a pvt message if you want my side in/out with that decklist.
About the switch +1mox -1r.r. your reasoning is partially right.
True. But,... you need to consider that against stax decks the coin toss is a fundamental factory. I give to it the 20-30% importance in a victory.Quote:
regarding to the first one we really need the bouncer in hand before it comes in to play otherwise we simply loose in 1st turn.
If you are on the play (so with the opportunity to play Mystical in response to chalice at 1) and you start the first game in this pliable manner with the sensation of losing for an opponent's hate at first turn without any possibility to recover; you'll start for sure the third game for second. This put you in an inferiority situation with more chances for your opponent to win the game.
The problem is that you hope (without bounce maindeck) to win g2 and g3, but your chances to win decreases when your opponent starts. So you need to help your luck winning when you win the coin toss, so g3 you'll be on the play.
Personally the stax matchup is the one I find more funny, because usually Stax players think to be over combo. False if you are a lucky guy that wins the roll dice and you know when to mulligan.
Then you need to consider that your switch doesn't increase the consistency of the deck. Both the cards are useful only in late game. I cut a Mox because I want only a percentage of 3-4% to open an hand with 2 Mox. An hand with 2 Mox is often an automulligan. The same (but perhaps less) an hand with Mox + R.R., the only thing is that the 2 cards are useful for 2 different purposes.
All this only to say that with this switch you don't increase the consistency or the strenght of the deck like with for example with a Peer Through Depths.
For last one there isn't only Chalice and CB, but also Moon Effect and Trinisphere. A first game bounce in these case can be more effective.
You need to do a tradeoff. If in your meta there are more Stax I prefer a versatile R.R., instead if in your area there are more CB I prefer Wipe Away.Quote:
regarding to the second one we are supposed to loose unless the bouncer has split second or we play in response the tutor to the bouncer .
The choice is done about the meta, not on the paper at home.
hmm perhaps I write in bad bad language. sorry.
I disregard Moon with this deck already. When playing DD FT, with 4 basics, 0 Mox and 1 Petal, I don't recall losing to Moon. Now, with 1-3 Mox, 4 Petals and 2-3 basics, this deck shouldn't be afraid of Moon at all, unless paired with Trinisphere or Chalice @ 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
True. A 2nd maindeck bounce is an idea if you face both frequently. People often run too much acceleration in this deck and that isn't good against CB nor Stax artifacts. I believe this to be the core acceleration: 4 Dark Ritual, 4 LED, 4 Petal, 2 Cabal Ritual. Anything more than that is an excess against control decks. You could easily run a 2nd bounce in the place of anything that's not a necessity.Quote:
Originally Posted by jegger
Against artifact-based hate, what is the standard replacement for Serenity in a red-based build? Is it Shattering Spree (which, if I'm not mistaken, cannot take down a Chalice @ 1 since the replicated copies also have CC1)? Ancient Grudge? Rebuilds?
Shattering Spree can destroy a Chalice @ 1, or rather the copies can. Chalice only counters spells that are played, not copies put directly on the stack.
If you are playing green, it's Ancient Grudge, without a doubt. This deck isn't full of 5c lands, so it can't produce enough red mana to make Shattering Spree destroy enough targets to make it a worthy inclusion, since you should always assume you are facing Chalice at 1. I'd stick with some bounce, probably.
Cutting MB chalice/CB/whatever hate is the dumbest idea proposed yet. Well, if your metagame is limited to goblins and your pet goldfish I might see it, but seriously, come on. One of my favorite new inclusions in DDFT is the second split second hate spell. It's so nice to acutally be able to handle hate instead of just convincing yourself that duress will handle it or I can mystical tutor on the stack to CB. It doesn't work like that, almost ever.
The deck needs bounce/disenchant. The deck needs those spells to resolve against counterspell decks. Play the cards that do the job for sure every time.