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I understand perfectly the advantatges of staying monocolor, but if splashing 1 or 2 colors is so drastically bad, how does Zoo win any games? I mean 70% minimum of the decks in most metas run Wasteland. And Zoo wins. We would be a faster, removeless Zoo in the 2 colors. I will proxy this up, and test it this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
Fair point. I have not seem zoo in our meta as of late though. And there is 1 difference between zoo and us. Their creatures stand alone. Ours require pump spells. So we are more similar to a combo deck as they play the aggro role. I feel our mana is more precious than theirs.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
This is the list I'm going to test:
4 Invigorate
4 Rancor
4 Berserk
3 Assault Strobe
4 Might of Old Krosa
2 Vines of Vastwood
3 Kird Ape
4 Slippery Bogle
4 Skarrgan Pit-Skulk
4 Silhana Ledgewalker
4 Kavu Predator
3 Kiln Fiend
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Forest
4 Taiga
I believe the small amount of 1cc red creatures can play in my favor, demanding Forest in the first turns, so that the base remains stable. Kird ape can be switched by Goblin Guide later, I just wanna test Ape first, since he got no drawback...
I'm not playing 4-of strobe just because its effect doesn't stack, and not playing 4x Kiln just because I got no room =P
Why not go down on an ape and up on a fiend? It seems like the fiend has much more synergy with the deck...you don't even have to zerk him for him to be huge. Just stick a rancor on him!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
Kird ape is not good in this deck, I tried white 1 mana creatures but that also did not work. You always want a forest to start with. Not a Taiga or a mountain.
Hmmm... what do you suggest, then? -3 kird, +2 Nettle, +1 Kiln?Quote:
Originally Posted by swordoffireandice
I think, with only 3 Kird, I'll usuallly have another 1cc creature, and would use kird as a second turn creature, but you are right, since I already want Skarrg to enter second turn whenever I'm able delay...
While the ape is a good card, Goblin Guide is far more explosive and is worth the drawback. It's nice that Kird Ape is G and not R which makes it easier to consistently land him into play turn 1, but Goblin Guide has so much to offer here.
There are 2 drawbacks on goblin guide, it costs R and might accelerate your opponent. Not saying it's bad, but a we have to take care with that. I know how awesome a 2/2 1cc with haste is, but if we are on the draw, and they land a 2/3 goyf at second turn, we traded 2 dmg for having a creature that helps the opponent. And I don't like the idea of making the CB+top matchup harder (they will take advantage of top when guide attacks).Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
I think I preffer Nettle over Guide.
Guys, Kird Ape costs 1 Red, not Green.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
Anyone thoroughly tested the red splash yet? I'll be testing a bunch tomorrow.
Ha ha lol, my bad. Silly silly teacup :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
@Gui: Goblin Guide doesn't accelerate the opponent, the lands just go into their hands. Still a drawback, but not as bad. Even in the CB mu, I like Goblin Guide, because of the extra speed he provides.
It does accelerate if it gives him more cards and options than he would have normally. It's not a small drawback there, even against decks that can't manipulate its topdeck. I still think Nettle is better for us. R in the first turn is a drawback by itself, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
Also, lots of the Zoo decks use Loam Lion or Kird Ape over Goblin Guide for a reason too.
I know what you are saying, but that is not how you use the term accelerate. At least, I am used to hearing it used concerning getting more mana resources and such. *Shrug* I could be wrong I guess. Also, Zoo doesn't play pump spells like we do and you can do nasty things with a hasty beater and pump in hand. What I am saying in a nutshell, we take better advantage of the haste than zoo could. If we also go back to using accelerants like ESP or something, he would be even crazier.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
I caught your point... yes, tecnically we use "accelerate" when we get more mana in less turns, like ESG, petal, moxes... That's not wrong, it make you able to land some card before you otherwise would.Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEvilTeaCup
But think like this: If the guy has no creature in his hand and is going to draw a land for the next turn, and you attack him and he draw that land, and if the card after the land was a creature, he's now able to land a creature before he otherwise would.
That's pratically the same concept, imo.
Using ESG with Gr version makes no much sence... I'd first try lotus petal, since now we need to care about color... And also, it reduces the amount of creatures and pumps we got even further, since we already reduce it to deal with a less consistant manabase. If we reduce creatures too much, we are more succeptible to control decks and to spot removals, and if we nerf pumps, we will find it harder to combo.
I guess it can be tested, tho. If you do that, please, keep us up to date. ^^
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on that point. Have you tested Goblin Guide a lot yet? When I use him, his drawback is usually not a big deal, but perhaps your testing yielded different results. Also the ESG was just an example of an accelerant so don't look to far into my comment :P However, such a build would indeed have a greater vulnerability, but whether it's worth it or not depends entirely on what you are playing against.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
I will remind you of Etienne's lists again. I have played all of them on MWS, I really think you should try them. You'll love them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
He runs 4x Lotus petal + 4x ESG + 16 lands. That's because if we accelerate so much, we don't need too many pumps. Our creature will be big and fast and will be a huge presence from the beginning so Pumping is only used for the win. Berserk, Invigorate, Rancor, 2x Fling---maybe Assault Strobe now.
I've we go first turn. Land + Lotus -- Kavu /// Kird + Rancor /// Nacatl + Rancor /// Qasali Pridemage. What do we want Might ooKrosa, or Seal of Str. for ?? And again, he doesn't run Boggle nor Silhana nor Vines of Vastwood, and he beats 40-50 people!! I understand monogreen needs Shroud. Or even GR needs shroud, but 3 colors seems to be fine without it.
Also, I really like Goblin Guide, but I'm not sure if he's good enough for Legacy... I'm starting to think that any free advantage for the opponent may be too big in legacy.
I see your point, but just because you have a few creatures doing some early damage doesn't mean you can consistently win. If they outclass your creatures or use removal on all of them then you're left with nothing. I think it is a bad move not to run sylhana in the very least.Quote:
Originally Posted by NihilObstat
I think a balance of good, evasive creatures and pump is the way to go. If I splashed red I would go for kiln fiend and assualt stroke (4 and 2 respectively). Kiln fiend pretty much has build in pump and only requires a berserk, however he does require trample as he does not have evasion. This makes rancor even more invaluable. You can infact pump 2 creatures and then choose to berserk any one of them.
Listen:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gui_Brasil
1) Run 4 Copperline Gorge. What u think?
2) Is Assalt Strobe so good? U can't kill easy with no trample abilities, or an effective evasive way
3) Ettienne list with petal, ESG making so fast than mono green version with throllshroud maybe a good way to beat. Why not try with it?
Again, these new awesome dual lands make sense when we run only 16~18 lands...mana screw will not be a real problem right now ;)
Copperline Gorge is strictly worse than any other dual land.
I agree that you still need trample abilities that is why you have rancor and berserk.
I didn't understand your last one. Are you saying a faster list is better than troll shroud?
So you think wastelands won't affect your duals? What if you have 1 dual land and a few red cards in your hand and your dual gets wasted?
I understand all your points, and I don't want people to get angry with me, I'm playing monogreen afterall...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
My point is, that right now we have to be realistic. I love monogreen, I love Berserk stompy, but I can't seem to win consistantly with it, sure I can do a 3-3 or 4-4, even 4-2 in a tournament but no one seems to win any important things with just G, so if we want this deck to actually see some importance, and not just "near-casual" fun, we would need to change our lists a bit.
Utopias are beautiful and magical in paper, but they don't tend to work in real life. I'm merely saying that if you come with a couple of actual reports from anywhere in the world of +30 players in which any monogreen Berserk places in top8 I might consider staying monogreen, if not I must keep saying that 3colors, or 2colors is better than mono. Sure we are open to disruption but we also gain a lot of speed, good cards, and new techs.