Problem with welder jar, it's much less flexible. You can't prevent jace bounce, stop a swords, stingscourger.. Plus spellskite can block and pick up a battleskull :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
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Problem with welder jar, it's much less flexible. You can't prevent jace bounce, stop a swords, stingscourger.. Plus spellskite can block and pick up a battleskull :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by SirTylerGalt
Spellskite is also reusable, and regeneration doesn't do anything against exile effects like Swords to Plowshares.
Picked up a couple Staffs. They seem to be good, Thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fry
Is there a page with you're list on it?
MTG Junkie:
I don't post my list often since most run key/welder/bonfire/godo/etc. and my list does do any of that. In any even here's my list that I tweak from time to time to fit what I think the Meta has more of a problem with at any given moment.
Main Board:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
3 Lightning Greaves
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Metalworker
1 Platinum Emperion
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Domination
2 Staff of Nin
1 Steel Hellkite
1 Sundering Titan
1 Trading Post
3 Trinisphere
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Ancient TOmb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 City of Traitors
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 Wasteland
Side Board:
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
1 Crawlspace
2 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Sundering Titan
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ward of Bones
1 Wurmcoil Engine
I've been considering taking out the crypt's and perhaps one duplicant out of the side for spellskite since it can save chalice, blightsteel, greaves, metalworker, wurmcoil, etc from things like stp, abrupt decay, burn, oblivion stone and several other things. I had noticed that I don't tend to side the crypt's in very often and when I do, they're usually just forgemaster fodder to get something like spine, bridge, duplicant, wurmcoil or some other thing that'd be more proactive(at least in my opinion).
I replaced Silent Arbiter in the side with Crawlspace. They do nearly the same thingand many decks are going to attack with either a bunch of guys (if they can), or just one guy like griselbrand, emmy, or progen. The crawlspace isn't suseptible to things like stp or wrath effects unlike the arbiter.
If they're any questions about why I play one card over another, feel free to ask and I'll do my best to answer in a reasonable way, not just to say because I like it.
Crawlspace is obviously better vs. Goblins, but Silent Arbiter is going to be better against those Abrupt Decay decks that have started rising up. Just something to keep in mind depending on what exactly you plan on using it against.
How so? Most of those decks don't swarm. Shaman deals damage without the red zone, and they usually have a fatty like Tarmogoyf or Knight of the Reliquary to swing with. Arbiter does nothing for you in that matchup, although the B/G/x matchup is awful regardless.Quote:
Crawlspace is obviously better vs. Goblins, but Silent Arbiter is going to be better against those Abrupt Decay decks that have started rising up. Just something to keep in mind depending on what exactly you plan on using it against.
I also don't understand why you need Arbiter or Crawlspace for Goblins, where there are better options like Jitte and Triskelion.
Sorry for the double post, but this is unrelated to the previous one.
I'm not sure how many people were interested in my U/b Masterworker list before, but I've done more playtesting since I posted my list last time, and I've refined it some more. I'm feeling really good about where it's at right now.
U/b Masterworker
// Lands 24
4 [MR] Island
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [TE] Wasteland
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
// Creatures (22)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
2 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
// Spells (14)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [DS] Trinisphere
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [MR] Triskelion
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 1 [MBS] Blightsteel Colossus
SB: 1 [EVE] Scarecrone
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite
I have yet to try out the Show and Tell sideboard plan that I mentioned before. I'm still not sure if that would actually improve my bad matchups (specifically the B/G/x decks).
Anyway, you'll notice some pretty significant changes.
The Forgemaster's were awful most of the time. The only time they were ever really good was against non-interactive decks like combo. The card disadvantage usually sucks, and he's very slow as an enabler since he costs 5 mana. So those got cut.
Staff of Domination was not very good. It's gg with a Metalworker, but it's a mediocre draw otherwise. So that got cut.
I almost never grabbbed the Blightsteel Colossus, unless I was playing against a non-interactive deck like combo, so I moved that to the sideboard.
Those cuts gave me 4 slots, so I decided to fit in a playset of Lodestone Golems. They don't stack with Trinisphere, but they give me additional asymmetrical disruption against every single deck in the format, and with the 1/1 split of Duplicant/Trikselion (with 2 Sphinx to tutor for them and Master Transmuter to reuse them), swinging through the ground with Golems is much easier than it was in my original builds. I also have an additional 1/1 split in the sideboard that I bring in vs aggro matchups, and an additional 2 Spines too for the matchups where I need to deal with noncreature permanents.
The Lodestones improve my curve, and they give me increased consistency in my backup plan (i.e stompy beats). So far they've been solid... not amazing, but solid.
With Lodestones in the maindeck now, and having already been wanting to find a way to fit in Wasteland, I cut the City of Traitors for Wastelands. City of Traitors were always hit or miss... yes, they increased my consistency of turn 1 Chalice/Trini/Worker, but a turn 1 City is also a very dangerous play. I've been happy without them to be honest, and Wasteland has been fantastic.
The list feels alot more streamlined now, and I continue to keep beating up on the majority of the DTB. I love playing this deck :)
Mechanist and Summoner are really better than tezz AOB?
This manabase looks like it could be real good btw, I can see trading my monoliths for metalworkers, and I like the number of artifacts supporting both worker and opal.
Yep. Mechanist is much easier to cast at 3U, and he's uncounterable with Cavern naming Artificer (which happens frequently). He's an artifact for Metalworker, and he's bounceable by Transmuter (which becomes a draw engine similar to Tezzeret's +1). He also happens to beat for 2 in the air, which is more relevant than people seem to think.Quote:
Mechanist and Summoner are really better than tezz AOB?
Sphinx tutors for any artifact creature, which is why my toolbox works. Like Mechanist, he also plays nice with Transmuter, and even independently, a 3/3 flyer that tutors for any creature in my deck (+1 CA) for 5 mana is really, really good. He's also castable off of Cavern naming Sphinx, so he's slightly easier to cast than Tezz (and potentially uncounterable).
Tezz being able to turn artifacts into 5/5's is nice, and his ability to dig 5 deep is also nice, and he was never "bad" when I playtested with him. Maybe I'll work on trying to fit 2 copies back into the deck again at some point. I rarely got much value out of his ultimate though (this deck doesn't spit out as many artifacts as Affinity does).
At any rate, I would not cut Mechanists or Summoner's to fit in Tezz. If I were to fit in 2 Tezz, I'd cut either the Trinispheres, the Lodestone Golems, or possibly even the Greaves... but definitely not the Mechanists/Summoners.
Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal.
I'd say you.d have to cut Mox diamonds but you probably won't agree with me. You'll find out sooner or later though :) i'd run petal over Mox diamond since you aren't running crucible or another way to offset the disadvantage of a Mox that doesn't net any extra mana.
Hanni, is it really worth it to play without City of Traitors? Isn't City better than Vault of Whispers at least? I understand that you'd want to hit your land drops, but it's a stompy deck after all.
[QUOTE]Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal./QUOTE]
I tried Arcum quite a bit in my very first lists, and to be honest, it wasn't very good. There are very few noncreature artifacts that are actually worth running, and even fewer that make Arcum worth running. Arcum is a nonartifact creature that requires me to sacrifice an artifact creature. Most of the time when I was sacrificing stuff to Foregmaster, it was excess Moxes/Artifact Lands/Trinispheres/Chalices/Greaves/etc. Sometimes I would need to sacrifice Foregmaster himself (Arcum can't even sac himself). The only artifact creature I'd even want to sacrifice to Arcum would be a Metalworker once my hand is depleted. I mean, yea I could sacrifice Mechanists, but still.
I don't understand why I would want Mycosynth Lattice without other cards to combo with it (since it does nothing by itself). Possessed Portal would require significant changes to make it work/break the symmetry (like Crucible of Worlds), and I'm not even interested in the effect (this is not a Stax deck). Spine of Ish Sah is a great card to be sure, but it alone is not worth running Arcum, and it's not a threat on its own.
For Arcum to be worth it, I'd need noncreature artifact "threat on its own" in the toolbox. Something like Akroma's Memorial would be a cool target, but it's not a threat on its own. The problem with most of the big-cost noncreature artifact bombs is that they also have an expensive activation cost. Batterskull is a good noncreature artifact, but it's not worth running Arcum for, when it only costs 1 mana more. Same goes for Phyrexian Processor and Myr Turbine. Mindslaver doesn't do much without Academy Ruins or Goblin Welder. Summoning Station and Myr Incubator are the best two that I've seen, which still don't seem worth it.
There are some decent expensive noncreature artifacts, like Scourglass and Staff of Nin, but meh. Gleemax would be really cool if it was tournament legal...
Anyway, I think a deck focused around Arcum could be fun. Something focused more on noncreature artifacts, possibly with something with Karn, Silver Golem or March of the Machines. He doesn't work well in my Transmuter list, though. I'd love to find a way to abuse Timesifter, and an Arcum list could be a way to do that.
Yea, I definitely don't agree with you. Mox Diamond is pretty much essential to me for providing any color of mana and acceleration. While Diamond might cost a land, it taps for mana every turn, where Petal is only one-time accel. Mox Diamond lets me power out a turn 1 Chalice/Greaves into turn 2 Metalworker/Trinisphere (or sometimes even 4cc stuff), where Petal would not. I run 24 lands, so it's not like I don't get land flooded often enough to not care about discarding one to Mox Diamond (especially when I draw multiple Tombs).Quote:
I'd say you.d have to cut Mox diamonds but you probably won't agree with me. You'll find out sooner or later though :) i'd run petal over Mox diamond since you aren't running crucible or another way to offset the disadvantage of a Mox that doesn't net any extra mana.
Well, I do run 4 Ancient Tomb, 4 Mox Diamond, and 2 Mox Opal for acceleration, but maybe I should work on fitting 2 City of Traitors back into the deck. I definitely don't want more than 2, though.Quote:
Hanni, is it really worth it to play without City of Traitors? Isn't City better than Vault of Whispers at least? I understand that you'd want to hit your land drops, but it's a stompy deck after all.
I could cut Vaults, but I'd be worried about my black sources for Sphinx. Right now I'm at 10 black sources, with possibly 4 more via Cavern... cutting 2 Vaults drops me to 8 + 4, which seems a bit risky. I mean, many times I cheat the cost with Transmuter anyway, but I do hardcast Sphinx's quite often. I'll test with -2 Vault +2 City and see how it works, though.
---
On an unrelated note, I've been thinking about my recent changes with adding Lodestone Golem, and how that might affect the rest of the deck.
Trinisphere is fantastic against free spells (Daze/FoW), great against 1cc spells, but isn't any better against nonartifact 2cc spells, and doesn't stack with Lodestone.
On the other hand, Tangle Wire has fantastic synergy with Transmuter, and the effect is really good in combination with Lodestone. The effect is really good with Metalworker and Transmuter as well, since I can tap down my lands and still put stuff into play.
At any rate, I'm going to playtest with Tangle Wire and see if I like it better than Trinisphere.
The new developmental list:
U/b Masterwork MUD
// Lands (24)
4 [MR] Island (1)
4 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
2 [MR] Vault of Whispers
2 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [TE] Wasteland
// Creatures (22)
4 [UD] Metalworker
4 [ARC] Master Transmuter
4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem
4 [DDF] Faerie Mechanist
2 [CFX] Sphinx Summoner
1 [MR] Duplicant
1 [MR] Triskelion
1 [SOM] Myr Battlesphere
1 [DS] Sundering Titan
// Spells (14)
4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
2 [NE] Tangle Wire
2 [MR] Lightning Greaves
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [SH] Mox Diamond
// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [MR] Duplicant
SB: 1 [MR] Triskelion
SB: 1 [SOM] Platinum Emperion
SB: 2 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [MBS] Spine of Ish Sah
SB: 2 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 4 [NPH] Spellskite
EDIT: I'm not sure why I play against Hymn to Tourach in every other match I play on MWS, but its pretty rediculous. My only bad matchup, and I always seem to play against it on MWS without fail.
/smash face into keyboard
Anyway, Tangle Wire was good against the B/G deck I just played against.
In the game 2, it kept my opponent off of hitting me with Hymn and Sinkhole long enough for me to drop double Lodestone to lock him out of the game.
In game 3, it didn't help me, but there was nothing I would have been able to do anyway. Opponent opens with Shaman, I have land go, he goes turn 2 Wasteland + Confidant, swing with Shaman. I drop the Tangle Wire on turn 2 off of a Diamond, he proceeds to double Waste me, I have no lands left in hand and the top card wasn't a land either, so I scooped.
[QUOTE=Hanni;692747]only responding to mycosynth lattice right now as I am in a hurry but:Quote:
Hanni, I'd try arcum dagsson over forgemaster. it's on color, doesn't have the built in card disadvantage of forgemaster, is only 4 mana instead of 5, is an artificer for cavern of souls, and allows you to lock up the game very quickly through mycosynth lattice or spine of Ish Sah / possessed portal./QUOTE]
I tried Arcum quite a bit in my very first lists, and to be honest, it wasn't very good. There are very few noncreature artifacts that are actually worth running, and even fewer that make Arcum worth running. Arcum is a nonartifact creature that requires me to sacrifice an artifact creature. Most of the time when I was sacrificing stuff to Foregmaster, it was excess Moxes/Artifact Lands/Trinispheres/Chalices/Greaves/etc. Sometimes I would need to sacrifice Foregmaster himself (Arcum can't even sac himself). The only artifact creature I'd even want to sacrifice to Arcum would be a Metalworker once my hand is depleted. I mean, yea I could sacrifice Mechanists, but still.
I don't understand why I would want Mycosynth Lattice without other cards to combo with it (since it does nothing by itself). Possessed Portal would require significant changes to make it work/break the symmetry (like Crucible of Worlds), and I'm not even interested in the effect (this is not a Stax deck). Spine of Ish Sah is a great card to be sure, but it alone is not worth running Arcum, and it's not a threat on its own.
For Arcum to be worth it, I'd need noncreature artifact "threat on its own" in the toolbox. Something like Akroma's Memorial would be a cool target, but it's not a threat on its own. The problem with most of the big-cost noncreature artifact bombs is that they also have an expensive activation cost. Batterskull is a good noncreature artifact, but it's not worth running Arcum for, when it only costs 1 mana more. Same goes for Phyrexian Processor and Myr Turbine. Mindslaver doesn't do much without Academy Ruins or Goblin Welder. Summoning Station and Myr Incubator are the best two that I've seen, which still don't seem worth it.
There are some decent expensive noncreature artifacts, like Scourglass and Staff of Nin, but meh. Gleemax would be really cool if it was tournament legal...
Anyway, I think a deck focused around Arcum could be fun. Something focused more on noncreature artifacts, possibly with something with Karn, Silver Golem or March of the Machines. He doesn't work well in my Transmuter list, though. I'd love to find a way to abuse Timesifter, and an Arcum list could be a way to do that.
.
When you change every permanent to an artifact, creatures become artifact creatures. Arcum Dagsson can target your opponent's artifact creatures and swap them for a non-creature artifact. This basically means that you can force a sacrifice with arcum, and that arcum can sack itself to get a trinket itself.
I didn't notice that interaction, that's actually pretty cool. Maybe I'll tinker around with an Arcum list after all (although I still don't think it fits in the Transmuter version, but I could be wrong).Quote:
only responding to mycosynth lattice right now as I am in a hurry but:
When you change every permanent to an artifact, creatures become artifact creatures. Arcum Dagsson can target your opponent's artifact creatures and swap them for a non-creature artifact. This basically means that you can force a sacrifice with arcum, and that arcum can sack itself to get a trinket itself.
There are a few directions i would like to try with arcum:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanni
1) UB Tezzeret - sack balefulstrix or solemn to activate arcum for the win.
2) affinity - as a backup win condition. 1 activation wins you the game.
3) UR control slaver - a port from vintage
The biggest problem is finding relevant cheap artifact creatures to sacrifice. The best ones are baleful strix, solemn simulacrum, pilgrims eye, phyreian revoker, butim still looking for some other cards. Perhaps Esper variant with duress-artifact dude.
Thopter foundry plays well with arcum
edit:
Just throwing this out there. Here is a rough framework of one of the setups I am working on for Arcum. It uses cheap artifact creatures with a disrupting effect (baleful strix, revoker, tidehollow sculler and thopter foundry) to supply a stream of sack outlets. The deck can win with Thopter/Sword, Tezzeret or Arcum lock. Arcum can also setup Thoptersword very easily.
4 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3 Arcum Dagsson
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Baleful Strix
4 Tidehollow Sculler
1 Tidehollow Strix
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
//3 slots dedicated to either of:
Mindslaver / Mycosynth Lattice / Possessed Portal / Spine of Ish-Sah / Darksteel Forge / Nevinirral's Disk / Contagion Engine
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce / Flusterstorm
Esper Stormblade is another creature that I have considered. It's a Delver of Secrets for this deck but I don't like the vanillaness of the card.
This really doesnt belong in this thread, but since this is my go-to artifact thread ill just post what inhave now. It still needs work but i cant wait to test it.
//equipment (2)
1 Civic Blade /*1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of the Meek
//removal and utility (19)
1 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Transmute Artifact
2 The Abyss
3 *Deathrite Shaman
4 Brainstorm
3 force of will
//Artifact Beats (17)
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
3 Esper Stormblade
2 Thopter Foundry
//planeswalkers (4)
4 Tezzeret Agent of Bolas
40..
3 Pillar of the Paruns
2 Polluted Delta
2 *Flooded Strand
2Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
21
Shardless agent into transmute artifact is really sweet. It gets you jitte or thoptersword or converts agent into a baleful strix if u need to defend. The abyss is really good if u only have artifact creatures ( except shamsn). Shamsn can be cast off pillar of the paruns like most cards in the deck.
Stormblade is a flipped delver all the time and tezz aob us the best planeswalker for this deck. The manabase needs practice/tweaks but im pretty sure pillar of the paruns is the right card for this deck.
Looking at Hanni's list kind of made me think in the other direction. Instead of tutoring for big stuff, you could cut black altogether, lower the curve bit, and go with a trinket mage package instead of the master transmuter combo. Just food for thought.
"Shardless agent into transmute artifact is really sweet."
How does this work? You do know that the transmute artifact resolves before the shardless agent is in play right?
Doesn't work. You must have some artifact on battlefield for sacking transmute artifact. Shardless agent is still in stack. Btw. these last decks are defenetly not mud belongs to UB control topic or somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
Oh man.. Didnt know that. Wouldve been pretty awesome. I still think the density of artifacts warrants transmute. Also, shardless agent into esper stormblade turns it on immediately. Ill tweak the deck and make a separate thread for it.