Printable View
This is my take, too. It would have been very easy to print a few cards that involved removing energy, and yet they chose to make the mechanic something the other player couldn't interact with directly. It's unsurprising that bans were the eventual result. I hope this will be a good lesson.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Nah, it's just a case of "we still haven't figured out that counterspells and viable land destruction are required elements of balance" striking yet again.
To a certain degree? They've toned down counterplay across the board over the last few years. Some of this feels like they're really overdesigning sets based on trying to meet the demands of a pretty big body of market research and previous "lessons learned", which is pretty restrictive and also creates its own problems.
Take energy. Players complain when flagship mechanics don't show up in Standard (much like how people are complaining about tribal not being good enough now), so WotC pushes energy. They don't print interaction with it because they're worried that if they make interaction too strong, it will make players shy away from trying energy, and also force them to design cards that are way too parasitic outside of Kaladesh block - and that will make players complain too. Also, players don't like strong hosers printed in the same block as things they hose (see the outcry about Grafdigger's Cage when that was spoiled), and players don't like too many counters to the things they're doing because that can lead to frustrating games (see why all Wraths are five mana or conditional now).
The result is a monster that shoves everything else out of Standard and causes players to complain anyway.
The lesson here is to not listen to your players as much, because they don't know what they like and will complain about everything.
Are you being sarcastic? Have you looked at the cards that got banned in Standard? They're garbage in Legacy. Their track record is a little better in Modern, but even there at best they're "okay" (Reflector Mage is probably the most notable of them) and some are essentially unplayable (basically everything banned in this announcement).Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumC
The bannings aren't a sign of them taking risks, they're a sign of them watering down the rest of Standard so that decks that normally wouldn't have been an issue are the best decks by far. There's been a lot more Legacy-calibur cards in the Standard blocks that didn't get bans, such as Innistrad or Return to Ravnica.
Outcry over Grafdigger's Cage? There was barely any from what I can remember. There was some complaining about Cavern of Souls in this area but I think it would've been a lot less if not for Zac Hill's really stupid article that introduced the card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
Though even if there was outcry against Grafdigger's Cage, I don't think the problem is them not printing strong hosers in the same block as things they hose. It's them not even printing strong hoser cards in the next block. They don't put anti-graveyard cards in Shadow Over Innistrad block, okay. But then they didn't put any in Kaladesh block either, it took then until Amonkhet to print anything resembling playable graveyard hate. Similarly, no energy hate in Kaladesh block? Fine. But then in the subsequent blocks, the best we got is Solemnity, which is limited to White and is rather weak at what it does (if it either took away all energy counters when it entered the battlefield or cost less, I think it would have been more viable hate).
In regards to the sweepers, I actually did sort of like the change to 5 mana over 4 mana. The problem is that they didn't put anything on the 5-mana sweeper cards to warrant the extra mana, instead putting largely irrelevant extras. More relevant bonuses, even just a simple cantrip, would've gone a long way to making the 5 mana feel justified.
But said players are also those who earn WotC their cash. It's easy to dismiss the general playerbase as idiots, but the playerbase as a whole is way smarter than a few guys on the design team, simply because they have more and smarter minds at hand that matter, even if it's just a few individuals. That's why the Felidar Guardian combo was figured out in an instant by the playerbase while R&D completely missed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
The problem with Kaladesh block was that the sets after it also didn't contain hate for artifacts (aka vehicles) and especially not for energy. Not ruining the set's mechanincs in the same block is fine and has been at staple of Magic design for a long time, but not integrating any safety valves at all is asking for trouble. Amonkhet, for example, would have been a wonderful opportunity to make cards that remove counters from permanents or players to get boni, fitting with the -1/-1 theme of the block.
You think Ramunap was born out of WotC taking a risk? The same people who said Desert was oppressive?Quote:
Originally Posted by MaximumC
Bingo!Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
Looter Scooter has seen moderate success in Fish. Not exactly a bomb, but I wouldn't call it garbage either. Arguably it only needs the right shell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
Otherwise, yeah, the rest are pants.
Actually, WOTC pays artists pretty well from what I have heard, some of the best rates in fantasy illustration, on top of that it can be pretty lucrative if you do art for a recognizable card that people want artist proofs for (I think masterpiece artists were selling their proofs for like 200$+ ea and they get a stack of them from WOTC). The big difference now is that afaik the entire composition is pretty much dictated for most cards, which leaves very little room for the artists interpretation, though maybe some of the more popular artists like Terese Nielsen probably have more freedom. This combined with the shift from 'art' to 'illustration' since the early 2000s homogenizes the art style overall, which makes it seem more cohesive (which I assume WOTC wants) but at the same time a lot of the charm is lost. Pretty much the only artists with distinct style are hold overs from the previous era. With regards to the border designs, I think they hired someone specifically to work on them, which seems strange given how inconsistent the results have been (decent Kaladesh ones to Amonkhet's abomination).Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
The reason for this is that Legacy decks are all about efficiency, 0-1 effective CMC. There are very few conceivable cards left in that range that could be printed. Fatal Push closed one of the biggest gaps that was available (B removal at 1 cmc, and even it is still lower powered overall than Bolt or STP). In order for a card to break into Legacy, it has to compete with the most efficient spells in the history of the game and the power level there has been pretty much mined: Bolt, STP, Force, Brainstorm, DRS, Thoughtseize, Mother of Runes. Imagine a card in any of those cards' colors that competes on power level with that card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
For cards that cost more than 1 cmc, the bar is equally high. Compare a cool creature to TNN/Gurmag Angler, a planeswalker to JTMS, a reanimation target to Griselbrand, a combo mechanism to Show & Tell. Legacy is full of straight-up mistakes, but the format works because it is full of them and there are enough to go around. Joining the club, though, is incredibly difficult.
I agree. I know this is a Legacy site, and "Bad Set for Legacy" = "Bad Set in the Abstract" is a pretty ingrained meme at this point, but the lack of Legacy-quality cards on the banned list has very little to do with issues of modern set design or set quality. Legacy is a format of mistakes, and it is very, very rare for a set to make multiple contributions to us - and the ones that do tend to stand out (like New Phyrexia).
To me the current state of Legacy has more to do with DRS than anything in Standard.
I give them credit for pushing block mechanics like Energy to make them more than a gimmick, but the problem is that they don't print strong hate in the next block to create a cycle of introducing a mechanic, refining it and finally, hating it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by morgan_coke
On top of that there is still the core problem in Standard and modern, that answers cost at least as much as threats. The 3cc creatures they banned were just a problem because counterspells and removal often costs 3+ mana. Just look at the 5 mana sweepers, which are pathetic against 3-4cc creatures which do half of their job on EtB.
If DRS is a problem, so are Delver, Brainstorm and Ponder. Or fetchlands. Banning those would neuter DRS, Brainstorm and 3-4 colour monstrosities in general (i.e. kill the format as we know it) :laugh:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I'm not saying the card is an banable problem (it is a problem though) I am just saying that next to DRS, Reflecter Mage looks quaint.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
That I agree with :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
But when was the last time a card got banned from Standard that wasn't good enough for eternal?Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
The issue is that Standard design is precluding any ability for self-policing, hence mediocre cards are easily getting out of hand.
Really? A lot of us think Legacy in in a fantastic spot right now. When has any meta in any format been more diverse?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
DRS facilitates a wide range of decks:
Elves
Czech
Delver
Leo BUG
Maverick
Loam
But does not oppress other archetypes like:
Blade
Lands
Miracles
ANT
Eldrazi
Prowess
D&T
Sneak Show
And we just got a new Tempo-Stompy deck that shows great potential.
Even cantrip decks are down to 59% according to MTG Top8
Genuinely curious why you would think there is any problem at all?
B/c you simply need to bitch about something? :laugh:
Oh I agree 100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
But I'm unable to find fault in Legacy, so I bitch about the bitchers. :tongue:
Personally not looking to debate shit, but my personal view is that currently a lot of Legacy is built around a very small selection of cards and those cards should be watched. If you feel different, that ok by me. I don't care enough to even pretend I want to revisit BR shit.
You brought it up, bro.