[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by calosso

I don't see why people are not playing thoughtsieze in there boards.

4 thoughtsieze
4 therapy
3 grips
4 smother

I agree with teeniebopper about smother. With the decline of goblins and the increase of threshold and other aggro control decks, it is necessary to run smother. Also it kills goyf.

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Thats not a bad sideboard to run in R/b/g goblins.

The current sideboard that I've been running to good success is the following:

4 Pyrokinesis
3 Krosan Grip
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Smother
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I'm still a fan of pyrokinesis b/c its good against aggro. Maybe smother is the better choice, but I like pyrokinesis just in case other goblin decks show up.

If I expected a lot of control and combo to show up, I could easily take the pryokinesis out for thoughtseize as it helps in both of those matchups.

If I was playing thoughtseize in the board, I'd want to be playing therapy in the main, because if you get to the point where you actually need 7 discard spells in the board, chances are you're in an environment where you don't want to be running Goblins anyways.

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

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Good point, I'd definately run Terminate over Smother in Rb Goblins.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Is there a reason to run Smother over Terminate (even better if you still play Pyrokinesis)...

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You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

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I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

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Originally Posted by Mental

I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

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People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

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Right!
I'm a Faerie Stompy player and nobody plays Sea Sprite anymore...silver knight is a bitch but the deck running it you should overpower (unless they have a jitte equipped on it.

Dude be a little open minded...Terminate is probably better 70% of the time...much better against randomness or Exalted (just an example)...
You are right sometimes you wont be able to cast it turn 2, block with your fanatic or whatever and kill that Goyf turn three or four.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

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I might be willing to do something like that, but I'm not sure. The power of waste/port in the thresh matchup is just so undeniable. I've won games on it alone.
Also, in my meta I see very little Goblin hate ATM, it's all directed at thresh. Except this one MUC player, who has his entire SB to combat goblins. I still beat him though.

Keeping at least 7 Waste/Port is the best reason not to splash 2 colors, I think one color splash is the way to go!
Personnally green is my favorite cause it keeps the deck focused and provide the necessary tools (grip and tin street). I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

mY 2 CENTS!

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Keeping at least 7 Waste/Port is the best reason not to splash 2 colors, I think one color splash is the way to go!
Personnally green is my favorite cause it keeps the deck focused and provide the necessary tools (grip and tin street). I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

mY 2 CENTS!

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I prefer white because it allows turn 2 Lackey hits and deals with Goyf better than any other splash. Goyf is a real problem for goblins and StP really helps with that. In addition, white has a better combo match up than green because it runs Orim's Chant in it's SB.

Green seems underwhelming to me as the only things it has access to are Krosan Grip and Tin Street, both cards made to destroy artifacts/counterbalances. While that's not bad, it doesn't seem worth splashing for.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

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I agree entirely, I run 4 Wasteland 3 Port along with 23 lands and it works out fine, I wouldnt go down to 22 lands but if I did the cut would probably be another Port.

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Originally Posted by Mental

I can't take your post seriously because you cut port. It's better than Wasteland, IMO.

Also, with fetchlands + duals, the problem you stated won't come up too often. And who plays Silver Knight?

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Dude. I was the first person to add port to the deck. I think I know the uses of port. You know why it was added? Because Landstill was the best deck and was geared to beat almost exclusively aggro decks. There was no Infernal Tutor or EtW at the time. With Landstill not running Humility (which was always the biggest problem with the match up, and the real reason you wanted to keep them off of WW) and Threshold having a real beater in the two drop slot instead of wearbear, the reasons for running Port aren't there anymore. Trust me, single colored source hands come up far too frequently. It's been that way since the days of FCG (yes, I speak from experience). I want to be able to actually cast my threats instead of relying on mana cheats because everyone and their mother is packing solutions to the mana cheats.

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People who haven't gotten the memo about Goblins not being the single hardest deck to beat and thereby adjusted their hate levels accordingly. Which is an amazing part of the less elite community.

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Quite the opposite, really. It's because I play in an elite community that I cut Port. I just mentioned Silver Knight and Sea Sprite (which, incidently, I did happen to see over the weekend) because I think you're far more likely to run into pro red dudes than pro back or 4+CC dudes.

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Also, as far as double Port/Waste draws go, I tend to think as long as you've got a full sixteen Red sources, you're okay. This is why I only run 6 Waste/Port in 22 Land builds and 7 in 23 landers.

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Like I said before, I like to be able to cast my dudes. If they deal with Vial or Lackey (and they will), I don't want to be twiddling my dick tapping their lands. It means I'm busy not winning.

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I think the black splash is good but probably a fad!

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Soon as green comes up with a way to deal with Tarmagoyf and Belcher/TES, or black a way to deal with Plague, CoP:Red, or whatever other random artifact or enchantment hate, let me know, because then I'll cut a color.

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

You're on the draw. Your opening hand is Badlands, wasteland, port, mogg fanatic, vial, Ringleader, Warchief, Terminate.

Your opponent leads off with a fetch into a basic island, Brainstorm.

You fail to draw another colored source of mana.

Your opponent plays a trop, then a Tarmagoyf.

How do you kill it?

Silver Knight is a bitch and a half too. So is Sea Sprite. Pro red in general sucks a lot of ass.

Incidently, the example I used above is precisely the reason I cut Port a long time ago too.

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How do you kill it? You soak up that 3-4 damage like a man then play it turn 3 so you don't lose to a freaking Daze. Srsly. However given that you don't even run Port, this isn't an issue for you. If you aren't running Port, I see like no reason why Terminate isn't better. Silver Knight, ok. You have Silver Knight. What about my Terminate killing, like, I dunno, everything else?

So wow. I posted in Goblins. Rad.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

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I might try 3 color if I had all those duals :(
Agreed with Di, otherwise. 3 Damage isn't much at all.

If you do don't cut the port and don't add to many non-goblins to the deck...if you do this deck will become just another fast aggro deck!

Wow, I stop playing for two years and people just assume that I"m some complete fucking noob. Nice.

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Originally Posted by Di

How do you kill it? You soak up that 3-4 damage like a man then play it turn 3 so you don't lose to a freaking Daze. Srsly. However given that you don't even run Port, this isn't an issue for you. If you aren't running Port, I see like no reason why Terminate isn't better. Silver Knight, ok. You have Silver Knight. What about my Terminate killing, like, I dunno, everything else?

So wow. I posted in Goblins. Rad.

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Silver Knight really is a serious bitch, especially considering any deck running Silver Knight is also running Jitte and SoFI. It's not easy to play around. Course, you guys are right in that nobody really plays those decks, so I guess it's mostly irrelevant.

I could support Terminate, but my point about Terminate is Waste/Port builds is still valid. You're not going to be able to cast it consistently enough.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

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Dude chill the fuck out, I dont even know TeenieBopper irl but he sounds legit, and unlike you he is making coherent points not being condescending and irrational. I myself have also been playing goblins since Food Chain was a deck in old 1.5, and can tell you that 3 color is definitely worth it and Port isnt as good as it used to be. The only reason I still run Port is because I havnt been getting color-screwed, it definitely is not what it used to be.

On Smother vs. Terminate: The main things I want either to kill are Tarmogoyf, Confidant, Sea Drake, other Goblins, man-lands, if you face the occaisional scrub playing Silver Knight I dont think you really need to worry. For me Smother seems better because it is easier to cast and I cant think of much Terminate kills that I really need to handle and cant via Gempalm.

Why Snuff Out is not debated in the Terminate vs Smother?
It has some weaknesses and some pros. The only scary creatures that can't kill are tombstalker and Nantuko shade. The other ones are not so scary (confidant needs just to be pinged, Shadowmage is blue, so you can alpha-strike with piledriver).

The loss of life is not a great problem for gobbos, It doesn't slow your game plan at all and it virtually can't be dazed / counterbalanced.

Thoughts on that?