[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Just wondering, I'm new to this deck, but I had heard some murmurs about trying Death and Taxes with a Green splash...
Have people abandoned this idea?

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Yes. Any splash makes our manabase very fragile to Moon, Wasteland and Price of Progress and we already have all we need in white.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

It seems like if TEPS/ ANT are difficult matches, Gaddock Teeg could help a lot, since it is a must-answer in order for them to be able to win. On top of that, Qasali Pridemage seems like a shoe-in for the sideboard, since people have been debating Elvish Hexhunter and Pridemage is pretty nearly strictly-better.

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We already have Ethersworn Canonist and sideboard options.
Hexhunter can hit BEFORE Counterbalance, Standstill, Survival even if you're on draw and that's the only reason I run him.
Pridemage is a great card, but not for this deck.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

I understand all the conventional arguments against splashing a color, especially in a deck such as this that tends to run a high number of non-basics (Karakas, Port, Factory, Wasteland, Flagstones)... However, it seems that the meta is getting more friendly to splashing in mono-color decks... For example I've had some success so far testing my Merfolk deck with a White splash.

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Dunno about your meta, my is full of Wastelands as it always was and some Moons and Back to Basics are here too.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Are there any green cards that would be worthwhile to use in the maindeck? (I'm really hoping the answer isn't "Tarmogoyf"...)

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There are good cards in all colors. But DnT has its solutions to almost every problem it faces and still has strong manabase, so it's better to stay monowhite. Many people tried different splashes and all returned to monowhite.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

SIDEBAR: Could someone show me what a list that runs Weathered Wayfarer looks like, and maybe give me a rundown on how it affects the deck's match-ups as compared to the standard version? Wayfarer is one of my personal pet-favorite-cards, so I'd be interested in seeing a list.

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Here's Urdjur's list with Wayfarer:

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Originally Posted by urdjur

LANDS (22)
12 Plains
3 Karakas
1 Dust Bowl
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Mistveil Plains
1 Wasteland

CREATURES (21)
-1cc
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Weathered Wayfarer
-2cc
4 Serra Avenger
2 Jötun Grunt
1 Epochrasite
1 Ethersworn Canonist
-3cc
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor

SPELLS (17)
-1cc
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Enlightened Tutor
-2cc
1 Runed Halo
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-3cc
1 Aura of Silence
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Ghostly Prison
1 Oblivion Ring

SIDEBOARD (15)
3 Cataclysm
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Abolish
2 Mine Excavation
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Tormods Crypt
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon

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Wayfarer provides another engine and is Landstill's worst nightmare (after Vial).

On general: I'm new to DnT too and I'm not sure it's good to experement with the deck now 'cause you need a great skill to win with DnT. Each small desicion can cost you game and each mistake is unforgivable. So first you need to learn the deck by playing basic list like the one in 1st post with minor metagame/personal taste tweaks.

This may be a silly question, but has Preacher been considered for this deck? I realize that the three drops are insanely clogged up, but it seems like he might be a decent sideboard option against some strategies. Stealing an opposing Goyf or Dreadnaught would be pretty hot, I would think.

Also, separate question: That list with Wayfarer someone replied to me with on the last page had some decent ideas, but it was sort of all over the place (like, what is Boseiju really supposed to protect in this list? Dustbowl, why? Mistveil Plains, why?)... And it was further complicated for me to sort through because it was very much focused on the Enlightened Tutor aspect of the strategy. I want to play a list with Weathered Wayfarer, but I don't want to devote a whole lot of design space to it, I just want to get decent use out of it because it's my favorite white one-drop.

Can someone recommend a couple of the more effective one-of lands that I could use? Personally, I wouldn't go below 3 Karakas, 4 Wasteland, 3 Port, so I really only would have room for one or two one-of lands in the maindeck, and I want to choose the most bomb ones possible. Basically, I want a list that looks a lot like the one in the OP, but with a few tweaks, and I really want to squeeze in 2-3 Wayfarers.

I might try running Isamaru at two-of (for availability issues, for one thing), and I'm going to test with and without Ethersworn Canonist in the main-deck... I realize without him there, the deck kind of nerfs to ANT et al, but I want to try KotHN as my 2/2 for two mana since he beats and disrupts in more situations than Canonist. Also, I'm really not quite sold on the necessity of Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard... I'd rather just play a fourth Forge Tender, free up two sideboard slots, and play around with those, unless someone really sells me on Goblins being a terrible matchup for us.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

This may be a silly question, but has Preacher been considered for this deck? I realize that the three drops are insanely clogged up, but it seems like he might be a decent sideboard option against some strategies. Stealing an opposing Goyf or Dreadnaught would be pretty hot, I would think.

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IMHO Preacher is unneeded. You can Flickerwisp Dreadnought, shrink Goyf/Terravore with Jotun Grunt+Stonecloacker, RFG 1+ target with Mangara, block some of them forever with Karakas+Isamaru, use Maze of Ith in Wayfarer version.
LOTS of solutions. And don't forget 4 StP and 3-4 O-Ring maindeck.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

I'm going to test with and without Ethersworn Canonist in the main-deck... I realize without him there, the deck kind of nerfs to ANT et al, but I want to try KotHN as my 2/2 for two mana since he beats and disrupts in more situations than Canonist.

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He attacks, blocks, survives sweepers and is hard to kill. But he doesn't disrupt at all. Without Lin Sivvi Canonist is better option.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Also, I'm really not quite sold on the necessity of Tivadar of Thorn in the sideboard... I'd rather just play a fourth Forge Tender, free up two sideboard slots, and play around with those, unless someone really sells me on Goblins being a terrible matchup for us.

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Goblins are even to good preboard and Tivadar makes it 90% win postboard.
But I changed Tivadar to Cataclysm 'cause it is usefull against gobs AND other matchups (other Tribal, Enchantress, Landstill/MUC(if you resolve it), Quinn, Trainwreck).

On general:

Guys, don't remove Grunt from MD!
He somehow hurts so many decks in the format that it's not even funny: Survival, Volrath's Stronghold/Academy Ruins recursion, Crucible/Loam, Ichorid, Everything with Goyf, and finaly, FUCK YOU PAINTER/GRINDSTONE COMBO!
Backed up with Cloaker/Wisp, he is A HOUSE!
As far as my testing goes, Grunt was never useless against competitive decks and 4-th one is the card I side in most frequently.

3 Aven Mindcensors will stay in my SB for their help against: Survival, all tutors (enlightened, mystical, infernal), fetches and Natural Order.

Hey, could someone give me a list with the matchups and &'s that is up-to-date :)? I read through the thread but i couldnt find it. Using the normal version instead of the rebelversion.

thanks, Maarten

Grunt doesn't stop grindstone combo, if your opponent plays smart.
They have to activate grindstone after your grunt trigger resolved, but still in the upkeep, then you still lose...
I'm also pretty sure, that grunt should stay MD. He is that good. In my opinion the only guy we have, that can answer goyf, in an effective way.

Also, you don't need Tivadar he isn't that important when your have Forge-Tender, who is so much better in many other matchups. But, if there's LOTS of goblins in your meta, Tivadar should be your sideboard card of choice.


On one-of lands: It depends VERY much on your meta. Mishra's Factory, Dustbowl, Kor Haven or Maze of Ith would be my suggestions.


EDIT: @1maarten1, which matchups would you like information on? The decks in the DTB section, or more than those?

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Hey, could someone give me a list with the matchups and &'s that is up-to-date :)? I read through the thread but i couldnt find it. Using the normal version instead of the rebelversion.

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Read opening post of this thread :smile:. That list is up-to-date and I started my list from Finn's. Here it is:

// Lands
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Flagstones of Trokair

// Creatures
3 Stonecloaker
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 free slots for 1-cost (currently Elvish Hexhunter)

// Spells
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Jotun Grunt
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 Aven Mindcensor
SB: 3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 3 Children of Korlis
SB: 2 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 2 Cataclysm

The matchups... I didn't read about MU. I tested all by myself to learn how to play the deck. My findings:

Goblins: slightly favorable preboard, favorable postboard.
Keys: Burrenton Forge-Tender, Cataclysm.
Tech: reset their Vial with Flickerwist to prevent them from droping Ringleader/SGang

Ichorid: Unfavorable preboard (like all other decks), even postboard
Keys: Burrenton, Samurai, Children, Grunt.
Notice: they'll bring in Needle, art/ench hate and maybe Chain of Vapor anf Firestorm. Your hate is based on creatures and you have Burrenton for Firestorm, so they can't hate your hate:wink:. But it's combo deck. It can still win on turn 1.

Storm combo: Unfavorable preboard, slightly unfavorable postboard.
Keys: Children/Chant, Canonist, Aven Mindcensor, fast beats.

UWx Landstill: depends on build, but very difficult. Hexhunter > Stanstill and this wins me a descent number of games. Wayfarer is a big help here too.
Tech: Reset EE with Flickerwisp.

UBg Landstill: Landstill is hard and this is Landstill with Deed.

the Rock: They have Deed and tons of other shit. I've won couple of games against Rock, but it's hard as hell and requires all you luck and skill.
Tech: Reset EE with Flickerwisp

Tempo Thresh: Even preboard, favorable postboard
Keys: Grunt, Burrenton, Canonist, disrupt their mana, Stonecloacker.

CB Thresh: Even preboard, slightly favorable postboard. Shakcles/Sower are bitches. But you can play around it (Flickerwisp, Stonecloacker)
Keys: Hexhunter (hello, Counterbalance!), Canonist, Grunt

Aggro Loam: even preboard, favorable postboard
Keys: Burrenton, Grunt, Stonecloacker, Canonist (to slow them down), removal on their big dudes.
Tech: reset Crusher, Chalice and EE with Flickerwisp.

Survival: Hexhunter, Grunt, Mindcensor and manadenial make this match favorable postboard.

Dragon Stompy: not much testing here, but you want to bring Burrenton in play and you can reset Chalice with Flickerwisp or resolve Vial before Chalice to do it.

That's all for now. As you can see, with great skill and some luck you can win almost every game. The worst match for me is the Rock and UBg Landstill, but they are not popular in my meta.

ok thanks :) merfolk and zoo are the most commen played decks in my meta, how about those MU's?

Maarten

Ok, here's a mock-up list I'm suggesting that uses Weathered Wayfarer. I'd really appreciate any suggestions that people have, or analysis on the strengths and weaknesses of using him... Is Wayfarer awesome in any matches besides Landstill? Is he just downright terrible sometimes? (I could envision this against something like Burn potentially...)

I've used Finn's current list in the OP as a starting point, since I'm new to the deck and I don't want to take it upon myself to fix what ain't broken.

Without further ado...

4 Karakas
3 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
11 Plains

3 Weathered Wayfarer
3 Ethersworn Canonist
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Mangara of Corondor
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
2 Stonecloaker

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Umezawa's Jitte

SIDEBOARD
4 Orim's Chant
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Glowrider
2 Cataclysm
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Ethersworn Canonist

So... I italicized cards that appear in different quantities from the OP list. The only additions are 3 WW in the main and 2 Cataclysm in the SB, and the only card I completely dropped from the list was Tivadar of Thorn. As you can tell from comparing, I stayed really close to Finn's list that's in the OP. I didn't even find room to include any one-of lands to abuse Wayfarer with (mostly because none of the possibilities seem all that spectacular. So I sort of need some advice on one or two more things I could shave down potentially, and what I should add to the list in order to compliment Wayfarer.

One minor question I have is if it would make more sense to use the fourth copy of Wasteland instead of the fourth copy of Karakas? I know Karakas is nutz in this deck, but since it's legendary and Wasteland is as brutal as ever, it seems like the presence of Wayfarer might make it more viable to just play three copies of Karakas?

Anyhow, I have a starting point, but I need some advice. Could I see a list of someone who actually plays DnT using Wayfarer in tournaments? And also, if there's someone with a list, could I get a little more insight on how Wayfarer changes the deck's match-ups, and which matches you would side WW out in during games 2 and 3?

Cheers, and thanks for any help available on this. I realize it's not really a ground-breaking idea, but I'm just trying to come up with a good generalized list for the Wayfarer variation.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

List

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2 Flagstones of Trokair are good with 'Clysm in sb. But with WW you can run only 1(cut a Plains for it).

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

One minor question I have is if it would make more sense to use the fourth copy of Wasteland instead of the fourth copy of Karakas? I know Karakas is nutz in this deck, but since it's legendary and Wasteland is as brutal as ever, it seems like the presence of Wayfarer might make it more viable to just play three copies of Karakas?

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IMHO you can run only 3 Karakas with Wayfarer, but Karakas produces :w:. If cutting :w: source is acceptable (test, test, test...), run one of the following: Mishra's Factory, Dust Bowl(nutz with Flagstones), Maze of Ith/Kor Haven(hello, 'Nought), 4th Wasteland, Horizon Canopy(keeps your land counter while drawing you cards), Mistveil Plains(grab this from Flagstones to nullify disadvantage; also pain in ass for PainterStone).
Trick: put your lands back in library with Grunt (or Mistveil).

On general: WW is mana-intensive, so you maybe want to run 22 lands in your build (extra utility land is never useless, just rememper, you need at least 10 basic plains not to suck to Moon and same shit)

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Anyhow, I have a starting point, but I need some advice. Could I see a list of someone who actually plays DnT using Wayfarer in tournaments? And also, if there's someone with a list, could I get a little more insight on how Wayfarer changes the deck's match-ups, and which matches you would side WW out in during games 2 and 3?

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I know only theory, but in most cases you side out WW for Burrenton against: Burn, Zoo, Tempo Thresh, Aggro Loam, Ichorid, Goblins, Dragon Stompy.
WW is great against: StaX, Anything running Standstill, decks with slow clock. He allows you to build your mid-late game when you're not under pressure. And you will outplay almost everything in mid-late game with awesome setup provided by Wayfarer.

Some thoughts on Merfolk and Zoo MU:

Zoo: quite nervous preboard, slightly favorable postboard.
Keys: Burrenton, Grunt, Canonist, wasting their lands(to shrink Nacatl and Kird Ape),
Fliсkerwisp - he figthts Figure of Destiny and with Vial he can suddenly RFG their land(even basics) and make their cats and monkeys look stupid.
Pridemage is a bitch. My first Swords target.

Merfolks: One of the MU where Grunt is not so devastating (but still descent) I take out Canonists for Samurai for better combat abilities. Serra Avenger is gamewinner.

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

ok thanks :) merfolk and zoo are the most commen played decks in my meta, how about those MU's?

Maarten

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As a Merfolk player, I can address this a bit in theory, although I haven't actually played against DnT all that much.

Basically, here's what you have to break the matchup in your favor:
*A higher density of relevant mana-denial cards (your 4 Wastelands/ 3 Ports vs. their 4 Wastelands, since Stifle doesn't work as mana denial against DnT). I think the smart Merfolk player will save their Wastelands for Karakas nearly every time, whereas you basically nuke their Mutavaults and maybe try to tap down their Islands during their upkeep. Keep in mind that mana denial isn't particularly effective against them, because their curve is even lower than yours is, but if it turns out to be good at the time, you have more ways to do it than they do.
*Combat tricks and creatures that are larger individually than most of theirs (provided they have less than two 'lord' creatures in play). Merfolk doesn't really have too much natural evasion against non-blue decks, and they don't have anything nearly as wacky as Karakas, Cloaker, or Wisp to turn the tide of combat in their favor. Be sure you get good usage out of these cards as much as you can, because they're going to be huge targets. Also, the advantage your creatures have over theirs will diminish once they get a buffing creature or two in play, so don't rely on it to win you the match.
*Flying creatures are also very relevant against Merfolk (most Merf lists have none, some have maybe four or so at the most), so try to stick your Wisps and Avengers.
*Spot removal. This is huge, because they won't have any unless they're splashing a color (something I've been known to do with Merf, but not everyone does)... Very likely, they will try to hold onto their FoW in order to counter your Swords and O-Rings, not to mention Mangara. Don't let them! Put enough pressure on the board that they have to counter a creature (hopefully not the best one in your grip though) if you really need to stick your spot removal.
*Jitte dominates Merfolk. DnT plays their Jitte in the main, whereas Merfolk may have them in the main, the sideboard, or not at all. They have very few resources to keep your Jitte from getting counters on it, other than trying to counter the Jitte or Stifle the equip, because they can't really hope to completely prevent you from getting creatures on the board, since they run 8 counters to your 22 creatures.
*If Cataclysm is in your board, for God's sake, side it in! Cataclysm would dominate Merfolk, because their creatures generally do less on their own than yours do, and they have somewhat of a tendency to overextend. Especially against other decks that use Aether Vial and a ton of creatures, Merfolk is almost forced into trying to maintain board presence.

Having said that, here's what they have against you to break the match in their favor:
*Counterspells. They will pack 3-4 Daze and 4 FoW, automatically. Many times, Daze will come out in game 2 or 3, whichever of these two games they are on the draw rather than the play. Some lists also use Spell Snare, but it's fairly rare to see from them. I don't think I really need to explain why counterspells are a problem. DnT packs a lot of creatures, but they're not all that burly by and large. Although your creatures will be bigger than theirs at first, once the Merfolk player hits a Lord or a Reejerey, or even worse multiple 'lord' creatures, their guys are going to get a LOT bigger than yours pretty quickly.
*Lord creatures. While the creatures that Merfolk assembles on its first two or three turns don't tend to look all that impressive at first, they tend to get really big really quick if the Merfolk player is doing their job well. Reejerey and Lord of Atlantis are your sworn enemy, and you should try to dead them on sight. Otherwise you will no longer have parity in board presence pretty quickly.
*Possibly Dreadnaught. Not a lot of Merfolk players use it, because it tends to be unreliable in the deck, but be aware that it's a possibility.
*Standstill. This is kind of iffy against DnT, but it all depends what the board state looks like. A good Merfolk player knows when to drop a Standstill and when not to. If you find yourself on the wrong end of a Standstill, it's usually best to break it right away, but not necessarily with the best card in your hand. Be aware that they could draw into, or already be holding a counter, so try to bait them a bit before you go dropping something that you really can't afford not to stick into a Standstill. Having said that, I get the impression that Standstill would be relatively hard to set up against DnT, since pretty much any one-drop spell DnT could play highly reduces the effectiveness of an opponent's Standstill. Also, don't forget you can cast your Swords in response to their Standstill, which depending on the situation, might even be enough to turn their card around in your favor. I feel that the smart Merfolk player will take out Standstill in Games Two and Three more often than not against DnT.
*Higher card selection advantage. I think DnT enjoys higher card quality advantage between the two decks, in that its cards work slightly better on their own than Merfolks' do. Both decks use cards that are fairly interdependent in order to work to maximum effect, so the advantage is slight, but it's worth mentioning. On the other hand, Merfolk can see more of its library, between Adept and/or being able to set up Standstill to their advantage.
*Back to Basics out of the sideboard could be a pain in the ass for the DnT player. Honestly, between Wasteland, B2B, and Stifle, I wouldn't expect to have an easy time pulling off too many tricks with Karakas... so make the best of it when you can.
*They're pretty likely to have a Jitte to match your Jitte, and I think sticking one and keeping it around for a couple turns could very easily turn the match in either player's favor.

That's about all I can think of at the moment... Lol, it's a lot to start with at least. I think the match should be about even, and it could very easily depend on who has the better sideboard. Let me know what y'all think, as I said this is mostly theoretical so I might have missed or misinterpreted a couple aspects of the match-up. Hope this helps. :wink:

EDIT: I kind of forgot to talk about Aether Vial, but this is really probably what's at the heart of the match-up. Being able to successfully curve out an Aether Vial over the course of the first three or four turns is pretty dominating, and I think one big factor in the match will be which deck gets more crafty with their Vials. I think it may be correct for some Merfolk decks to side out their Vials in this match-up, depending on what they bring in for them. On the other hand, I don't think DnT should ever side out Vial in this match. Beware of having your Vial either Dazed or Forced though, because besides spot removal and Jitte, I think Vial is the other card that the Merfolk player will usually treat as a must-counter. This isn't because they can really hope to keep DnT from getting creatures, but Vial is a tempo boost that both decks will want to exploit, and they don't want your board to proliferate too quickly.

D+T beats Merfolk pretty hard. Played the matchup many, many times. I have always felt that this is the better deck.

I imagine the new rules change hits D+T pretty hard. Especially the part, where combat damage ceases to use the stack. This removes our ability to gain card advantage from our combat tricks, which is not very good, as this was the whole idea of playing D+T.

It's stated here, scroll down to rules change 5: http://wizards.com/magic/magazine/ar...ly/feature/42a

I imagine Flickerwisp and Stonecloaker looses some of it's effect, Stonecloaker the most, and that I will be trying other creatures in their place. I think Mother of Runes might be a good replacement. She fulfills the same purpose, the big problem being, that she doesn't combo with Mangara.

I just started to foil out my DnT ('cause it became my favorite deck) and read that new "rules"...
Damn, show me people that "don't understand combat rules"!

omg :s how can they remove the damage on stack rules.. D&T really likes those (as do some of my other decks), mana burn is no longer a problem.. and "the battlefield" doesnt sound that appealing.. -1 for magic...

I have recently got into legacy and I have spent ages getting the cards for this deck and it is my only completed legacy deck and I love playing it. Now this? More than a little angry. Will this archetype survive at all?

well, it will certainly make D&T weaker, but is it still possible to bounce a creature while the attacking creature stays 'blocked'? and thus prevend its damage?

but D&T relies alot on combat tricks, killing theirs, and keeping your creatures alive.. so this might couse d&t to not become playable at al.. (since it really needs all the advantage it can get)

The new rules changes regarding combat damage have certainly wrecked a big strategy of Death & Taxes. No more combat damage tricks - the biggest way that the deck creates a sort of card advantage. :(

I'm disappointed. I don't think they needed to do it. But how do you reckon the deck can bounce back? We've got to think of something!

No more astral slide trick with flickerwisp with the end step, if I understand correctly. That's kind of a dick pain. I really liked that one. I'm sure Finn will roll with it and keep playing D&T, but the combat dmg not going on the stack anymore is pretty brutal. I would use it a lot. I wouldn't say rely on it or anything, but it was a clincher in numerous games for me.

Oh well. Enhancement Shamans are good in arena now.

Wow... Just when I thought I'd finally decided on a second Legacy deck to pick up, now this shit happens?? So, basically as I understand it, Isamaru pretty much loses 50% of his effectiveness, right? I second the question about if the creature Isamaru blocks remains blocked when you return him during the declare blockers step? And Stonecloaker becomes much less attractive... I seriously second the question: Can anybody tell if this will remain a viable deck??? I really want to pick DnT up, but it seems like unless the deck also makes some significant gains from M10, it will just sadly fall by the wayside with this unnecessary revision to the combat damage rule. :frown: :frown: :frown:

I'm just a little sad right now, because it seems like when you take away the aspect of tricks and little complications that may arise occasionally from Magic, you eventually turn it into a lesser card game.

It's not rocket science. According to your posts and the fact that I am sure that you have at least a few of the posts on this thread, you'll be able to draw your own conclusion on whether the deck will remain viable.