[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I wouldn't let go so easily. ANT is the strongest deck in the format right now. I suggest you take a look at the Doomsday Hybrid lists that have been posted in this threat earlier. With 6 Chant 4 Top main and something like Xantid Swarm on the board, I'm pretty sure you can get a positive Merfolk matchup, if you practise with the deck enough. I'm pretty sure the only really bad matchup we have right now, is Dreadstill. With the Hybrid with the right list,we have put up test results that were about even against CB/Top and pretty positive against Tempo Thresh.

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This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

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Originally Posted by Wave

This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

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I suppose now would be a bad time to bring up that Bahamuth recently top8'd in a field of blue along with a mirror copy of his list and a very similar list (3 ANT in t8) at a similar sized event as the 5k.

In any event, the difference in ability to beat tempo decks (Thrash and Merfolk) between the 4x SDT lists with green for sb non-KGrip spells and other ANT lists is huge. The ability to hang with CB decks like Pro Bant and the misc CB control-combo decks (Painter, Dark Depths, Breakfast) is also greatly increased. We haven't solved Dreadstill yet (probably won't with Ad Nauseam still in the list), but I don't know of any storm combo list that has (that can still post good results against the rest of the field).

In first place. My apologies.

In second place, I read your post Pulp_fiction, but this is the Pupl_fiction's sideboards options.
Are Bahamut sideboarding equal to Bahamut? I don't know, but Bahamut can says something like:

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Exactly like PF in the other page

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As he says, his list are similar without Grip as principal option. You side in +2 Swarm +1 Silence, +1 Plains, and +2 Doomsday vs Merfolk, and he side in 4 Swarm.

My intention was to compare sideboard options, but again. My apologies, you three make a great work improving Storm Combo (stormboards, for example) and I don't want to waste your time asking the same things another time.

The next time, I will ask "Bahamut, are you sideboarding like PF?"

I saw that a couple of pages ago and also this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...68&postcount=1 but this is not proof of the deck being good against Counterbalance decks and blue based decks, you know well that one single result is not enough for a statistical accurate analysis. I know Stephens grid is not perfect either but it's the closest thing we have to a statistical analysis of the matchups right now besides the clogged what combo deck is best thread which clearly showed us that combo have a problem against blue based decks. Those top 8 you referred to do not show us how many other ANT decks lost their matches to blue based decks in those tourneys, they only show that some of them slipped through to the top 8. And I bet all of those ANT decks that where paired with a Counterbalance deck in a top 8 lost their match.

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Originally Posted by Wave

This statement is not true, look at Stephen's matchup grid from Starcitygames, counterbalance went 9-1 against ANT decks and to my knowledge the Doomsday in the deck won't bring up the matchup 40 %. A Counterbalance in play is just as much a bye to a Doomsday list as to a regular ANT list. Slowplaying them will just increase their chances of getting a Counterbalance in play and going fast is not always possible since you need at least one disruption to get through their counter wall. Merfolk and Tempo Thresh both had good matchups against ANT also according to the grid. The deck might be one of the best decks right now but it's matchup against blue is horrible.

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I have no idea how you could possibly know anything about my test results. I don't care about the results other people get with this deck. In fact, I am pretty sure that most ANT pilots don't fully use the decks potential. I'm not saying I do, but me and my team have a lot of experience with the deck in all sorts of configurations. It's a good thing for me if people belive that just playing a CB instantly wins you games against ANT. I was making my point to convince spankme to not give up on the deck yet. For the sake of the argument itself, I'll respond here too.

First of all, a CB in play is by no means a definite problem. If the opponent does not have an active Top next to it (and chances are decent he doesn't), CB is just like a Chalice, but worse because it will often only counter 3cc (or 0cc for that matter) which doesn't have to be a problem at all. You can't always play around an active CB (the best example being a 1CC at the top and your opponent having a FoW), but it's quite possible.

Then there's the opportunity to race CB. With the hybrid, this doesn't happen often, but it does occasionally. The opponent won't always have a turn 2 CB, so you have a pretty decent timeframe where you can win protected around, say, FoW + Daze, before a Counterbalance lands.

Then there's obviously Grip. Grip does a very good job at removing Counterbalance. In fact, if your draws don't suck, I'm fairly sure you will very often be able to beat CB + FoW + Daze without much problem. Top is crucial in being able to do this, but it can be pulled off just as easily without.

The truly hard situations are those where the opponent has more hate than that. That does happen quite a lot. Stuff you see could be Clique or Needle on Top. Relic barely counts. I'm also not saying you can beat CB every game that easy, but it's very possible to do so. Sometimes you don't have enough time to find Grip + a protected win, sometimes the opponent drops another CB and you're going to have to dig for a second Grip, which doesn't always work.

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Originally Posted by Wave

I saw that a couple of pages ago and also this http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...68&postcount=1 but this is not proof of the deck being good against Counterbalance decks and blue based decks, you know well that one single result is not enough for a statistical accurate analysis. I know Stephens grid is not perfect either but it's the closest thing we have to a statistical analysis of the matchups right now besides the clogged what combo deck is best thread which clearly showed us that combo have a problem against blue based decks. Those top 8 you referred to do not show us how many other ANT decks lost their matches to blue based decks in those tourneys, they only show that some of them slipped through to the top 8. And I bet all of those ANT decks that where paired with a Counterbalance deck in a top 8 lost their match.

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All tournament results can do for you, is give a vague idea of the strenght of a deck. People are way too focused on decks that make top 8. I see crappy decks with crappy pilots make top 8 all the time. I hope you can see my top 8 as maybe an indication that I at least have some clue of what I'm talking about. It shouldn't mean anything else than that. My list was pretty different from the list we discuss here (at least the sideboard was).

The 2 other ANT players in the top 8 were in my team by the way. One played the exact same list as I did (matelml) and the other ran a more traditional version of the deck without Doomsday. The reality is that me and my team are still undecided on wether the Hybrid is actually better than straight ANT. We often choose different versions to play with.
In the top 8, I was paired against a teammate, which I lost (the mirror is really stupid by the way). The other got into the semi's and lost there to Dreadstill, of which I already stated that it's a very bad matchup. The guy who beat me lost to Reanimator, which is a pretty though matchup, but definitely not worse than 50-50.

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Originally Posted by emidln

In any event, the difference in ability to beat tempo decks (Thrash and Merfolk) between the 4x SDT lists with green for sb non-KGrip spells and other ANT lists is huge. The ability to hang with CB decks like Pro Bant and the misc CB control-combo decks (Painter, Dark Depths, Breakfast) is also greatly increased. We haven't solved Dreadstill yet (probably won't with Ad Nauseam still in the list), but I don't know of any storm combo list that has (that can still post good results against the rest of the field).

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To get some talk started here at least. I wouldn't say the difference is huge. My Hybrid didn't run Xantid sb, but it did run something else that is better against Tempo Thresh but slightly worse against Merfolk. The straight ANT did run Xantid, but only 2 Top. I think right now, your Merfolk matchups are pretty similar, and his list could possibly be better than mine against them. The strategy we have been using in the straight ANT lists to beat CB, was boarding in 3-4 EtW. This also gives you a very reasonable chance to beat CB.

Concerning the sideboarding, I could maybe post a list of how to board against some common decks with my version of the hybrid. Thing is, it has this card in the board which we board in a lot, and of which it might be better not to post it for the sake of it's effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

I have no idea how you could possibly know anything about my test results.

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I did not in any way degrade your experience or your results with this deck in any way and if it sounded that way i apologize. The point that I wanted to get out there was that the players in this thread has for a while now indicated that the counterbalance matchup is an easy matchup and hence no real innovation has been made in this regard, my point is to disprove this fact to stir up some discussion in this regard so I can continue to read on in silence once more again. And no I have not seen any of your testings what so ever, but the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves, counterbalance is by no means an easy matchup, not even blue is. But if your testing has concluded otherwise, then that is good news.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

First of all, a CB in play is by no means a definite problem. If the opponent does not have an active Top next to it (and chances are decent he doesn't), CB is just like a Chalice, but worse because it will often only counter 3cc (or 0cc for that matter) which doesn't have to be a problem at all. You can't always play around an active CB (the best example being a 1CC at the top and your opponent having a FoW), but it's quite possible.

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I do not agree that it might not be a problem if the opponent have a Counterbalance in play without a top in play, even if it is a blind counterbalance it doesn’t matter if he has a land, a cc1 or cc2, all of them matters if you have to combo off, either you need Cabal or dark ritual or you need LED/petal to go of, backed up with a Force or Daze and it can be crippling.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

Then there's obviously Grip. Grip does a very good job at removing Counterbalance. In fact, if your draws don't suck, I'm fairly sure you will very often be able to beat CB + FoW + Daze without much problem. Top is crucial in being able to do this, but it can be pulled off just as easily without.

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Grip is of course the common way of dealing with counterbalance, but it will often not deal with the other hate they bring in, I am going back and forth with this one since they often have time to set up a Clique to save them with it in play, but of course not always. My angle on this has been on using 3 Engineered Explosives main and it worked fine in those matchups.

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

All tournament results can do for you, is give a vague idea of the strenght of a deck. People are way too focused on decks that make top 8. I see crappy decks with crappy pilots make top 8 all the time. I hope you can see my top 8 as maybe an indication that I at least have some clue of what I'm talking about. It shouldn't mean anything else than that. My list was pretty different from the list we discuss here (at least the sideboard was).

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As I said I respect your experience with the deck and I congratulate your top 8 finishes, my answer on this was directed towards emidln stating the obvious that ANT has made some top 8s before (yet again I also respect your experience with the deck, just to claify this).

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Originally Posted by Bahamuth

The strategy we have been using in the straight ANT lists to beat CB, was boarding in 3-4 EtW. This also gives you a very reasonable chance to beat CB.

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This is exactly what I was looking after, some innovation that might be useful. I have also been using this strategy, and those that I have tested against (non counterbalance players though) have said that they are totally afraid of me using the red little men because they never know what to counter or what to answer. My problem with this strategy has been the manabase that has been crippled by having to be able to produce 4 different colors of mana (Chant, EtW, Rituals and blue cantrips).

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Originally Posted by Wave

I did not in any way degrade your experience or your results with this deck in any way and if it sounded that way i apologize. The point that I wanted to get out there was that the players in this thread has for a while now indicated that the counterbalance matchup is an easy matchup and hence no real innovation has been made in this regard, my point is to disprove this fact to stir up some discussion in this regard so I can continue to read on in silence once more again. And no I have not seen any of your testings what so ever, but the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves, counterbalance is by no means an easy matchup, not even blue is. But if your testing has concluded otherwise, then that is good news.

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I don't think any ANT player with half a brain would say that CB is an easy matchup. I was saying that, with the right main and sideboard, we can push the matchup to close to even, which is pretty big already. Other than that, I can see your point. I wouldn't say the numbers from Stevens article talk for themselves though. It's highly dependant on what the lists that were used are, and who piloted what deck.

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Originally Posted by Wave

I do not agree that it might not be a problem if the opponent have a Counterbalance in play without a top in play, even if it is a blind counterbalance it doesn’t matter if he has a land, a cc1 or cc2, all of them matters if you have to combo off, either you need Cabal or dark ritual or you need LED/petal to go of, backed up with a Force or Daze and it can be crippling.

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You're right, it's quite likely you just lose to it. But what I was saying, is that it's by no means impossible to combo through a blind CB.

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Originally Posted by Wave

Grip is of course the common way of dealing with counterbalance, but it will often not deal with the other hate they bring in, I am going back and forth with this one since they often have time to set up a Clique to save them with it in play, but of course not always. My angle on this has been on using 3 Engineered Explosives main and it worked fine in those matchups.

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Luckily most Cb lists don't run any really dangerous hate like Clique in their sideboard. You usually just have to deal with CB + some counters.

Are you saying you're running EE in ANT? How's that working out for you?

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Originally Posted by Wave

This is exactly what I was looking after, some innovation that might be useful. I have also been using this strategy, and those that I have tested against (non counterbalance players though) have said that they are totally afraid of me using the red little men because they never know what to counter or what to answer. My problem with this strategy has been the manabase that has been crippled by having to be able to produce 3 different colors of mana, but it should be solvable in some way by running a volcanic in the sideboard.

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Yeah, we run a Volcanic in the sideboard. The results we got with this strategy are all right. I don't think they are as good as the Top + Grip strategy, but it's good enough if you want to run straight ANT because of the rest of the meta.

Actually EE have been working out pretty well, they might be a turn slower than grip but the blowing up of Goyf and Counterbalance at the same time makes up for it. Against non Counterbalance control decks they tend to give you some breathing room when they blow up gooses, goyfs and dreadnoughts, although you’d rather have another anti FoW card in hand instead in those matchups. They can give you a fighting chance against Stax and Dragon stompy pre board, although it is not enough to make them winnable, but they have saved me a couple of times. They are a dead draw against agro decks such as Zoo and goblins, but often you don’t care since you should run them over anyway. The biggest problem with the card is that you cannot search for them with your tutors, and because of this you some times don’t find them in time. So I usually side in one extra Grip against the Counterbalance matchups. I am running 3 instead of a bounce spell in the main board together with 6 Chant effects and only 3 Cabal rituals. In conclusions they are good against your worst matchups but worst against your good matchups.

On the Solidarity matchup, in my meta there are two solidarity players and I have never lost a single match playing against them, I have lost a single game but not a 2 out of 3 match. I run 4 Defence Grid in the sideboard, and I know they have been bashed in another thread because you can’t cast mystical or brainstorm in opponents endstep, but they are fantastic against Tempo Thresh and other non Counterbalance decks, and I probably don’t have to mention their value in the Solidarity matchup.

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Originally Posted by Wave

Actually EE have been working out pretty well, they might be a turn slower than grip but the blowing up of Goyf and Counterbalance at the same time makes up for it. Against non Counterbalance control decks they tend to give you some breathing room when they blow up gooses, goyfs and dreadnoughts, although you’d rather have another anti FoW card in hand instead in those matchups. They can give you a fighting chance against Stax and Dragon stompy pre board, although it is not enough to make them winnable, but they have saved me a couple of times. They are a dead draw against agro decks such as Zoo and goblins, but often you don’t care since you should run them over anyway. The biggest problem with the card is that you cannot search for them with your tutors, and because of this you some times don’t find them in time. So I usually side in one extra Grip against the Counterbalance matchups. I am running 3 instead of a bounce spell in the main board together with 6 Chant effects and only 3 Cabal rituals. In conclusions they are good against your worst matchups but worst against your good matchups.

On the Solidarity matchup, in my meta there are two solidarity players and I have never lost a single match playing against them, I have lost a single game but not a 2 out of 3 match. I run 4 Defence Grid in the sideboard, and I know they have been bashed in another thread because you can’t cast mystical or brainstorm in opponents endstep, but they are fantastic against Tempo Thresh and other non Counterbalance decks, and I probably don’t have to mention their value in the Solidarity matchup.

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I think you're playing ANT slightly in a wrong way. Defense grid, really? In a deck that's supposed to live and die in the opponent turn when you use to Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, bounce/break their hate cards, or even go AdNauseam? I don't get it. This deck should work ala Tempo Threshold, spretty much staying mana open to sculpt your hand and Topping (if you're running a Hybridish version). I think it's a justified bashing, because really, against TT you don't need that stuff to fight against it. This deck runs 4 to 6 chants for a reason. With the Hybrid version, Tempo Threshold is an even to favorable matchup if you can play it wisely.

Also, Engineered Explosives is pretty meh, you have to spend 4 mana (2 in the case of Chalice, ok) in your turn to blow up the pesky things (Counterbalance most of all), and they can go around it. Sorcery-speed costy solutions are << to Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

I think you're playing ANT slightly in a wrong way. Defense grid, really? In a deck that's supposed to live and die in the opponent turn when you use to Brainstorm, Mystical tutor, bounce/break their hate cards, or even go AdNauseam? I don't get it. This deck should work ala Tempo Threshold, spretty much staying mana open to sculpt your hand and Topping (if you're running a Hybridish version). I think it's a justified bashing, because really, against TT you don't need that stuff to fight against it. This deck runs 4 to 6 chants for a reason. With the Hybrid version, Tempo Threshold is an even to favorable matchup if you can play it wisely.

Also, Engineered Explosives is pretty meh, you have to spend 4 mana (2 in the case of Chalice, ok) in your turn to blow up the pesky things (Counterbalance most of all), and they can go around it. Sorcery-speed costy solutions are << to Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

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Do you realise end of turn Brainstorm is almost always the wrong play? So many people do this wrong.

I'm also not sure about EE. It sounds pretty decent, but i wouldn't run them mainboard I think. And I think Grip would be better in the board. It is nice they are good with AdN as opposed to Grips.

I'd prefer instant or sorceries as hate aswell. They can be tutorred for, EE can not.

What is wrong in EOT Brainstorm? Isnt that best time for casting things to look for combo elements? I know brainstorm in upkeep would be better due to 1 additional storm, but ANT plays on low mana resources, that I see one U to be very precious in launching possible combo. Correct me please, if I am wrong.

I guess it makes sense but I will ask anyway. Is vendillion clique really threatening for ANT and why?

Because it allows your opponent to insight your hand to see what are you playing, how close you are to final launch, it turns on clock on you by attacking, can delay you significantly sending key card from your hand away, and pre board cant be handled by wipe away (if you play them) because its effect will hit you once more. I guess.

Also instant discard that you can't remove with a duress. Its a hell...

- meanee

Actually in my experience it has not mattered if I play Brainstorm in their turn or my turn, actually the risk of it being countered is the same the second turn so I agree with Bahamuth on that one. If I where playing against some form of black discard I would of course play it in their turn but against blue control I don’t care. I have actually never felt the necessity to play Ad Nauseam in opponents turn (except when I was trying out LED less) since you often need the extra 4 (or so) storm count generated before, bear in mind that a good player is not often just looking at you holding counters, often they hit you with a Goose or Goyf also. If I would play against a rock deck or BW control deck it would be different with the Mysticals, Brainstorms and Ad Nauseam but then you don’t bring in stuff like defense grid. In my experience it has been the best card in the board, if you don’t think so, then don’t play it, but I do not agree with the argument of 6 chant effect being enough, why would then so many ppl. lose against those matchups? And don’t blame it on unexperience, regular ANT is not that skill intensive, play the spell and draw your deck it’s even easier than the old vintage storm decks and they almost played themselves

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

Wipe Away or Grip, which are pretty much uncounterable and usually unexpected.
Plus, EE can't get rid of Gaddock Teeg.

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Since when where Grip and Wipe Away unexpected? How many anti counterbalance effects can a combo player use? Here’s the list, Krosan Grip, Wipe Away, Rushing River, Repel – All at 3 CC – hence a good player would use a Clique or some other 3cc at the top, the other two are chain of vapor and Echoing thruth – and they can easily be answered by a simple Brainstorm.

EE is actually a meta card for me, I don’t know if I’m going to use it in Madrid, it depends on how many Counterbalance and Stax decks I expect to show up. In my testing the EE have done quite well since they work quite good against all the bad matchups and don’t bolt me in the good matchups. The argument of Gaddok Teeg is quite meh… Against the decks that run Gaddok mainly agro decks they go out for something more useful like black pacts. And it should also be mentioned that I run one Grip or some other form of bounce spell in the board to side in along side the EE:s, and as I said it has worked well so far.

Most of the time I have Brainstorm Dual and Fetchland in hand I just go:
Land, go (EOT Mystical Tutor for piece if I have it)
Fetchland, Brainstorm, put crap on top and shuffle with fetch

EOTing it or playing it on your opponents turn seems situational at best, if you can't have a shuffle effect to get rid of 2 bad cards. Normally even when my hand is packed, 2 of the 3 cards on top might be bad and drawing one on the next turn might no be good.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Most of the time I have Brainstorm Dual and Fetchland in hand I just go:
Land, go (EOT Mystical Tutor for piece if I have it)
Fetchland, Brainstorm, put crap on top and shuffle with fetch

EOTing it or playing it on your opponents turn seems situational at best, if you can't have a shuffle effect to get rid of 2 bad cards. Normally even when my hand is packed, 2 of the 3 cards on top might be bad and drawing one on the next turn might no be good.

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If your dual is black, the play fetch->island, go, eot Brainstorm, upkeep Mystical (probably for Dark Rit unless you already have one or your hand is complete garbage, in which case you probably get another Brainstorm) accomplishes the same play while allowing you to have a land with which to go off with on turn 2. In this scenario, Mystical itself is the shuffle effect. This play's only failing is how bad it is against Daze decks. It works with a Dual if your Dual isn't black, but that also leaves you slightly vulnerable to Wasteland.

My willingness to play EOT Brainstorm is very situation dependent. I sandbag them a lot to get bonus interaction out of SDT via LED and Doomsday. That said, one of the punts I see most often is this:

SDT, Brainstorm, Land, Fetch, misc other cards

For some reason, SDT turn 1 so you can play turn 2 Brainstorm in the main phase then fetch (i.e. not looking with SDT in your upkeep) isn't automatic.

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Originally Posted by emidln

That said, one of the punts I see most often is this:

SDT, Brainstorm, Land, Fetch, misc other cards

For some reason, SDT turn 1 so you can play turn 2 Brainstorm in the main phase then fetch (i.e. not looking with SDT in your upkeep) isn't automatic.

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Reading comprehension fail on my part, are you saying the punt is doing this, or NOT doing this? I think you mean the latter but I want to be sure.

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Originally Posted by MattH

Reading comprehension fail on my part, are you saying the punt is doing this, or NOT doing this? I think you mean the latter but I want to be sure.

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Writing fail on my part. I completely forgot to mention what was wrong before mentioning what to do correctly.

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

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Originally Posted by emidln

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

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It can be efficient. If you think you are 2 cards down, spinning top can be a manner to line up 2 of 3 cards to go off, and you just may, but that's a clear indicator that your hand lacks tutors and a possible dropped clue for your opponent to go off without abandon or to play a resource/hand disruption game instead of counter disruption.

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Originally Posted by Dilettante

It can be efficient. If you think you are 2 cards down, spinning top can be a manner to line up 2 of 3 cards to go off, and you just may, but that's a clear indicator that your hand lacks tutors and a possible dropped clue for your opponent to go off without abandon or to play a resource/hand disruption game instead of counter disruption.

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Following the qualifications of my statement, that if you have other stuff to do (stuff being Brainstorm/Ponder) it's inefficient, you're absolutely wrong. If you spin top, then draw, then play Brainstorm or Ponder you get to see a total of 4 cards. If you play a fetch on your turn before Brainstorm/Ponder, you see a total of 6 cards. If you draw for the turn, then play Brainstorm or Ponder and later spin top (assuming you can't go off), you have now seen 5 cards. If you break a fetch before spinning the top, you see 7 cards.

5 > 4
7 > 6

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Originally Posted by emidln

Following the qualifications of my statement, that if you have other stuff to do (stuff being Brainstorm/Ponder) it's inefficient, you're absolutely wrong. If you spin top, then draw, then play Brainstorm or Ponder you get to see a total of 4 cards. If you play a fetch on your turn before Brainstorm/Ponder, you see a total of 6 cards. If you draw for the turn, then play Brainstorm or Ponder and later spin top (assuming you can't go off), you have now seen 5 cards. If you break a fetch before spinning the top, you see 7 cards.

5 > 4
7 > 6

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Ah, I wasn't sure if you meant Brainstorm/Ponder was the 'something else'. Either way, it would depend. If digging for a land drop and not expecting to go off that turn, then I am a little more prone to top beforehand. If digging for a mana source or tutor, no. I am a little more passive with Brainstorm use, as I tend to see it as the only 'out' for anti-discard, on top of Doomsday stack synergies et al.

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Originally Posted by Dilettante

Ah, I wasn't sure if you meant Brainstorm/Ponder was the 'something else'. Either way, it would depend. If digging for a land drop and not expecting to go off that turn, then I am a little more prone to top beforehand. If digging for a mana source or tutor, no. I am a little more passive with Brainstorm use, as I tend to see it as the only 'out' for anti-discard, on top of Doomsday stack synergies et al.

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If you only have one land, topping in your upkeep is still wrong. You should draw your card and Brainstorm so that you see 4 cards instead of only 3.

I´m actually trying out all different approaches on ANT to find the list I like the most and maybe play it at Madrid. I´ve already tested TES, NLS and ANT-DD-Hybrid with quite some sucess, but I never was satisfied with the lists.
Could maybe Bahamuth or someone else post a list with the Empty the Warrens SB-Strategie? I want to test it at the next tournament to find out if it fits me better :) I´d probably start with a straight ANT list with 3 (4?) Tops MD and more Acceleration than the hybrid. Maybe like this:


// Lands
1 [ZEN] Island (1)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [ZEN] Swamp (1)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Underground Sea
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [A] Scrubland

// Spells
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [6E] Mystical Tutor
1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
3 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
4 [M10] Duress
3 [M10] Ponder
1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
4 [PS] Orim's Chant
1 [TSP] Wipe Away

// Sideboard 12 Cards
SB: 4 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 2 [R] Volcanic Island
SB: 2 [FUT] Slaughter Pact
SB: 1 [FUT] Pact of Negation
SB: 1 [DS] Echoing Truth
SB: 1 [4E] Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 [ON] Chain of Vapor

Thanks in advice,
jan

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Originally Posted by emidln

If you only have one land, topping in your upkeep is still wrong. You should draw your card and Brainstorm so that you see 4 cards instead of only 3.

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Not always, but you are correct that it is mathematically more efficient against most matchups. I am merely pointing at a difference in playstyle... like if you were facing a deck with potential discard capability (Dredge more and more now). Then I would personally be prone to top for a land instead of drawing then brainstorming depending on my read of an opponent in some instances, putting the risk/reward more on the ability to protect from a discard effect than possibly missing a land-drop by only digging 3 instead of 4.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dilettante

Not always, but you are correct that it is mathematically more efficient against most matchups. I am merely pointing at a difference in playstyle... like if you were facing a deck with potential discard capability (Dredge more and more now). Then I would personally be prone to top for a land instead of drawing then brainstorming depending on my read of an opponent in some instances, putting the risk/reward more on the ability to protect from a discard effect than possibly missing a land-drop by only digging 3 instead of 4.

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Topping for more land leaves Brainstorm vulnerable in your hand without digging as far should you not hit your land. You want to see more lands as far as possible against LD to prevent Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate ruining you. The more lands you get, the better developed your position to abuse SDT which makes the matchup much easier.

This isn't a difference in playstyle. This is poor decision making when you're playing combo.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Writing fail on my part. I completely forgot to mention what was wrong before mentioning what to do correctly.

The basic punt is the assumption that you also spin the top turn 2 in the upkeep. It's something I see often at events when watching other people play combo decks. Playing storm is almost always about maximizing your chances of finding the right mix of acceleration/bombs/protection. You do that by cantripping and tutoring efficiently. Upkeep activating Sensei's Divining Top just isn't usually that efficient if you have anything else to do that turn.

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Thank you for this post, this will most likely get copy-pasted into the Threshold threads when the timing is appropriate.

I'm not sure whether you already mentioned it but playing Brainstorm during your own turn is actually what people should do. I think there are still a lot of people who are somehow tempted by it's Instant-speed for reasons that are not clear yet...

When people say "spin the top," which ability of SDT are they referring to? Looking or drawing?

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Originally Posted by MattH

When people say "spin the top," which ability of SDT are they referring to? Looking or drawing?

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I use this to refer to looking. I use cash in or draw for drawing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

Topping for more land leaves Brainstorm vulnerable in your hand without digging as far should you not hit your land. You want to see more lands as far as possible against LD to prevent Sinkhole/Wasteland/Vindicate ruining you. The more lands you get, the better developed your position to abuse SDT which makes the matchup much easier.

This isn't a difference in playstyle. This is poor decision making when you're playing combo.

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Hmm, I almost always activate Top during upkeep, unless I only have 1 land in hand. If my opening hand is: Top, Ponder, land, random cards then I am always going to play the Top first (especially if you don't know what you are playing against) then draw my card for turn and play Ponder.

But, if the opening hand is: Brainstorm, Top, Land, fetch, random cards then I am going to activate Top first everytime. If I have a shuffle effect + an open mana I almost always use Top. I try to see a fresh top 3 as often as I can. With Ponder in hand I will almost always play it first before I look with Top, regardless of mana in hand. This has worked out for me.

When Brainstorm is in hand it really depends on the other cards in hand and if I have a shuffle effect. I usually try to look with Top first, especially if I don't have a shuffle effect, but in the instances where I don't have a second mana drop I will usually cast Brainstorm after I draw, without looking.

The more you play the deck the less confusing it gets, but the whole point of this is to save my cantrip effects until I need them. You never know when +1 storm will have made the difference in the game. Just think a little ahead at what order will let you maximize your chances of seeing the most cards thus giving you the best chance at winning the game. Also, with Top in play I try to save Brainstorm as much as I can. There are numerous situations where you have to put back IGG or AdN but don't have enough mana to cast it, but you have an LED or 2 in hand and had you played the Brainstorm earlier, you would not be winning this turn. Situations like this are what matter, and small plays like adding extra storm with Tops or recognizing IT + DRit chains. Being able to recognize the small stuff like this is essential to being a successful combo player!

Dudes can someone help me with the sideboard of the deck? please...

i dont how to side... every time i look at it all the cards seem too good to side out....

by the way this is the list im playing

http://www.deckcheck.net/deck.php?id=29258

thanxs

So if you have one land, a top, and no cantrips in hand, is it right to top on your second turn upkeep to look for a second land? I would think that digging for more land would be more important than tutoring anything on that second turn. Thoughts?

In general I would do this, assuming I don't have like LED, Rit, Petal, Mystical. So, just a long as there is no other way to abuse the Top I would always activate it with my only land because here is how I look at it: when not activating during upkeep you get to see 4 cards instead of 3, however, you are drawing a totally random card and then activating Top assuming you don't draw what you need and then have to activate it to put the card you need in your hand (assuming you hit it). And a lot of the time it is going to be a fetch so you can't even use the land till next turn unless you want to lose Top.

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Originally Posted by Brad Herbig

So if you have one land, a top, and no cantrips in hand, is it right to top on your second turn upkeep to look for a second land? I would think that digging for more land would be more important than tutoring anything on that second turn. Thoughts?

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This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

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I agree with you on strategy against Eva Green and decks with Chalice, but I was wondering why you choose to top in your mainphase against blue. You're definite not going to draw with a resolved SDT on turn 3 just to hit a land drop on top, that seems horribly inefficient.

Basically, why not wait until their end step? Or does it not matter?

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Originally Posted by Jaynel

I agree with you on strategy against Eva Green and decks with Chalice, but I was wondering why you choose to top in your mainphase against blue. You're definite not going to draw with a resolved SDT on turn 3 just to hit a land drop on top, that seems horribly inefficient.

Basically, why not wait until their end step? Or does it not matter?

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I've been blown out by my opp's turn 3 md KGrip. Mostly doesn't matter, but I'm kinda paranoid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by emidln

This depends on how critically you need to see another land before your opponent's next turn. Against Eva Green, I would not spin SDT in the upkeep hoping to maximize the number of cards I see. Against Stax or Chalice aggro, I'm very likely to spin the SDT on my upkeep if there is any chance at all that IMS + spell might win me the game. Against blue, I'm usually going to spin the first time in my upkeep and then if I don't find a land, draw my card for turn 3 and spin in my main phase.

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Hm, I don't like that. I personally always Top in my upkeep in this case. I consider making land drops to be much more important than seeing one extra card. The Hybrid can't really win without some land in play (well it can, but almost never does). I can get into the play you describe against blue. I've never done that before though. Might also have something to do with the fact that I'm hesitant to keep 1-land hands against blue.

I played yesterday at Tom Shea's Dual Lands tournament in Milford, MA. My list:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Orim's Chant
4 Duress
1 Silence
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Mystical Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony

3 Krosan Grip
1 Tropical Island
2 Silence
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Mox Diamond
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Hurkyll's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Slaughter Pact
1 Infest

Round 1 - Todd w/ Dragon Stompy
Game 1: He wins the dice roll. He presents his deck to me, and I shuffle it once and cut it, then as I'm handing it back to him, the deck kind of falls apart and some of the cards end up face up. We call a judge, and he gives me a warning for looking at extra cards. I feel terrible, and was actually expecting a game loss for this. It was a totally shady thing to do, even though I didn't mean to do it, but at this point I know exactly what he's playing. I keep a hand of 2 Ponder, Island, Tundra, 2 Orim's Chant, something else. I figure I can use the Chants to Time Walk for a couple turns, and Ponder into awesome shit. Unfortunately, on his first turn he goes SSG, Tomb/City, Magus of the Moon. I spend a couple turns Pondering, but don't get anything useful. On his 3rd or 4th turn he drops Trinisphere, and I decide to scoop soon after that so he doesn't know what I'm playing (I had only played Island, Tundra, Fetch Lands, Ponders).
Sideboard: -4 Orim's Chant, -1 Silence, +2 Hurkyll's, +1 Rebuild, +1 Chain, +1 Diamond
Game 2: I keep a good, although not terribly fast hand. It had 2 lands and Hurkyll's, and some business (don't remember exactly what). I do something and pass. On his first turn he goes Chrome Mox, Ancient Tomb, Trinisphere. I don't really care about this at the time, because I figure I can just draw one more land and Hurkyll's him. I draw the third land, he plays a Magus that I don't care about (I have both basics at this point). After 3-4 turns I go for Hurkyll's at his EOT with a clear win on my next turn. Unfortunately he plays PYROBLAST. I was not expecting that. Blown out.

0-1

I thought people were pretty much done with Dragon Stompy, so this is clearly an unfortunate matchup. I also didn't think people sideboarded REBs, so it's doubly unfortunate. I actually don't mind the matchup post board, but a REB certainly can throw a wrench in the gears.

Round 2 - Brent w/ CounterTop Painter
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and plays Volcanic Island, go. I keep the dream hand: Petal, Petal, LED, Chrome Mox, Orim's Chant, Silence, Infernal Tutor. On my turn I draw Dark Rit, making my hand a wet dream. I imprint Chant, Silence, he plays Brainstorm, then FOWs my Silence, I play out the rest of my hand and IT for Tendrils @ 20 without even having to IGG or Ad Nauseam.
Game 2: I didn't see much of his deck, so I don't even know if he's running Counterbalance. I sideboard -3 Duress, +2 Silence, +1 Krosan Grip. He ends up landing a Counterbalance on turn 2, and I MT for Krosan Grip and sit on it for several turns trying to find mana to cast it (notice I forgot to side in Tropical Island). I eventually find a Petal, but by that time he has a second Counterbalance. I try to go off through blind Counterbalance, but my Silence reveals a Top on top of his library. I can't go off through CB @ 1, so on his turn I Orim's Chant him to try to keep him from playing Top. Unfortunately he has the FOW, so CounterTop closes me out, then Grindstone finishes me off.
Game 3: I side in the rest of my Krosan Grips. I have a pretty boss hand, but my Mystical Tutor at his EOT meets a REB, leaving me with like 3 Rits, LED, Petal, etc. I proceed to draw more mana for a few turns while a Goyf plows me like a cornfield. I start playing Chants with kicker on his turn to buy myself time, but the business spell never comes. I get beaten to death.

0-2

This match was very winnable, especially after stealing game 1. It was just a matter of finding one key spell at the right time, which didn't happen. At this point, I'm very much out of contention for Top 8. However, the two guys I rode with are still very much in contention, so I decide to play a few rounds in the loser's bracket.

Round 3 - Greg w/ Survival
Game 1: He wins the dice roll and drops an Aether Vial. I have 2 IT, LED, Petal, C Rit, lands. I nearly give the game away, though. On my second or third turn, instead of playing IT for LED, I play LED first, so then I have to IT for C Rit and pass the turn. At this point he has Vial @ 2 and Survival on board. I am waiting for him to Survival for Gaddock Teeg and Vial him in there. Fortunately, he doesn't have him maindeck, so all my worrying is for nothing.
Game 2: He rips my hand apart with Thoughtseizes and Therapies, then beats me to death with monsters.
Game 3: He rips my hand apart again, but this time he doesn't have much of a clock. I eventually rip Ad Nauseam off the top and go to town. That's the problem with discard, I guess.

1-2

Round 4 - My opponent doesn't show up. The joys of the X-2 bracket.

2-2

Round 5 - Stefan w/ CounterTop
Game 1: I actually have a pretty rockin' hand, but I slow play it a little digging for a Chant. I go through all 4 Brainstorms this game, shuffling after each one (nice). I eventually find the Chant and go off. Turns out he didn't have much of a hand, and was just digging for Counterbalance, which he never found.
Game 2: He starts out with land, Tormod's Crypt. I keep a hand with 2 Krosan Grip, and plenty of mana. He finds and plays a Counterbalance on turn 2-3, which I immediately Grip. After another turn or so I Grip his Tormod's Crypt so I can keep my Threshold, then go off. Always nice to beat CounterTop.

3-2

Round 6 - Jeremy w/ The Rock
Game 1: I win pretty easily after a few turns, just when a Tarmogoyf starts breathing down my neck.
Game 2: I'm very distracted going into this game due to the fact that the guy sitting right next to me was arguing and full-on YELLING at his opponent and the judge. It goes a little something like this: the guy was riffle shuffling his deck. His opponent (who was also a judge) said he was shuffling in a way that made his cards visible to both his opponent and himself. When the guy presented his deck, his opponent called the judge and said that the guy presented a deck that was not sufficiently randomized, so the judge gave him a game loss. True story. I would have been pissed too. Anyway, I mulligan and for some reason keep a hand that's something like Tundra, Tundra, IT, D Rit, Duress, C Rit. Yeah, that's right. Anyway, I get beaten to death by 3 Tarmogoyfs before I find a way to cast any of my spells.
Game 3: I Ad Nauseam early and win easily. Legacy is a game of matchups.

I finish 4-2, which is good enough for 11th place (worst tie breakers of all the 12-pointers). I really like my build of this deck, and wouldn't change a thing. Matchups can just be a bitch sometimes. There was a lot of CounterTop at the tournament, but I feel like that's a winnable matchup. I think I could win 40-45% of my matches against CounterTop. There were also several other people playing combo at the tournament, but frankly most of them were terrible. The guy who made Top 8 was ok, but I don't think he was even packing Krosan Grips in the board, which is a huge mistake. Every other combo player I saw at the tournament was utterly worthless. I blame the World's results.

How do you like playing 2 Chomes instead of 3? Did you notice it hindered you at all? I just picked up ANT and im fine tuning right now. Was also why you play Krosan Grip over Wipe Away, I feel like Wipe Away is just strictly better since you dont need to take up another SB slot for Tropical.