Miracle Control

If Goblins are siding in Krosan Grips (or Anarchy, sometimes) for Moat and Humility mainly, why not to catch them off-guard with some oddball tech taken from Stax? Magus of the Tabernacle forces them either to spend half of their manabase each turn to keep some numbers on their team, making their ability to explode in one turn less likely (unless in Vial mode, which would mean you'd have lost anyways).

It is also a good blocker that eats everyone of their dorks on block, quite difficult to Gempalm off (if ever that card stays in for obscure reasons), and can't be Tarfired or Sharpshooted, differently from stuff like Peacekeeper. MotT also profits from the solid manabase and can be used also against Merfolk to slow down their team, and against Dredge to force them to go off in one turn (do they still play FKZ?). In general, it helps a lot in gaining time to find Terminus and/or Entreat the Angels, which is exactly what you want (beware to pay for the Angels, though).
Did I also mention he can't be Grudged/Claimed or Pierced?

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Originally Posted by Piceli89

If Goblins are siding in Krosan Grips (or Anarchy, sometimes) for Moat and Humility mainly, why not to catch them off-guard with some oddball tech taken from Stax? Magus of the Tabernacle forces them either to spend half of their manabase each turn to keep some numbers on their team, making their ability to explode in one turn less likely (unless in Vial mode, which would mean you'd have lost anyways).

It is also a good blocker that eats everyone of their dorks on block, quite difficult to Gempalm off (if ever that card stays in for obscure reasons), and can't be Tarfired or Sharpshooted, differently from stuff like Peacekeeper. MotT also profits from the solid manabase and can be used also against Merfolk to slow down their team, and against Dredge to force them to go off in one turn (do they still play FKZ?). In general, it helps a lot in gaining time to find Terminus and/or Entreat the Angels, which is exactly what you want (beware to pay for the Angels, though).
Did I also mention he can't be Grudged/Claimed or Pierced?

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Definitely a cool idea. My only concern is...with Goblins it's really hard to get to 4 mana (given all their ports/wastelands) to even cast the Magus. If you do get it in play...they may still not be too bad off..given they have so many ways to cheat guys into play (they often don't require their lands much..hence why the run 4x ports, 4x wastelands), but definitely out of the box thinking.

In the four mana slot to answer swarms, has anyone yet tested Supreme Verdict? Seems a good choice, but still hard to get to w/ ports and wastelands :(

Stifle is actually really awesome against Goblins. I'm not sure if that would warrant a control deck running a couple just for that MU though...

If Goblins starts becoming a bigger force in the metagame, and therefore something to be concerned about enough to warrant specific/narrow sideboard cards like Magus...

...a black splash for Engineered Plague is on of the best options. Grip or no Grip, it is a massive hurdle for them. Two Plagues is almost always gg. You can also cut a few countermagic spells for a few discard spells in postboard games.

Plague has relevance against alot of other matchups to not be too narrow. Same goes for discard in the sideboard.

This deck has a ton of draw/filter to find Plagues consistently. The deck can also cut colorless lands to splash black, without sacrificing the strength of its manabase.

The problem with this deck versus Goblins is that Terminus just puts all their dudes back into their deck. This deck has probably been thinned by fetching, so you are really only gaining some slight temporary (tempo), on-board advantage. The creatures going back into the deck allows both Matron and Ringleader to retain their value. I think it is time to think about another means to deal with their dudes (see below).

For those of you unfamiliar with tempo, if you don't press your advantage (here a clear board) when you have it, then you are just giving up the tempo you gained. Ideally you would follow up a Terminus with a Jace (same turn) or Entreat (next turn/their turn). Essentially what it comes down to is the fact that Goblins is an aggro/midrange deck that can grind very well due to its card advantage engine. Due to this you may want to reevaluate your role (i.e. who's the beatdown?). Sure they will be swinging faster than you early, but you can't completely rely on your inevitability that you have against other decks. You need to press you advantages when you have them.

If Goblins is dominating your meta, play this in your board: Tivadar's Crusade, then snapcast it if necessary. Then just laugh at them when they have to read it...

Humility/Moat has always been the strongest answer to Goblins. Mass removal tends not to work in the past simply because your clock as a control deck is abysmal. Sweeping and having to deal with vanilla 1/1s is still going to be an issue.

Humility/Moat are prone to grips, but if you have multiple copies of Humility/Moat/EPlague in your 75, it will make the matchup much harder for Gobs. Humility is amazing because it turns off the EtB-trigger of Matron and Ringleaders. Having Humility alone isn't going to save you, you need a combination of Factories/tokens/Battleskull/EPlague in your 75 to seal the deal up. You can't be safe unless you have multiple locks against Goblins if they're packing Grips.

Izzet Charm is being discussed over in the Blade COntrol thread. Anyone up to do so here as well?
I'm pretty sure the card deserves testing!

Izzet Charm is borderline terrible. I could see it making an appearance as a 1-of in a few 75s, but none of those will be UWx Miracles decks.

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Originally Posted by Malakai

Izzet Charm is borderline terrible. I could see it making an appearance as a 1-of in a few 75s, but none of those will be UWx Miracles decks.

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Please elaborate.

Hey guys


I'm currently playing Joe Lossetts list
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/37935

And I was struggling in my matchup (playtest) against EsperBlade running Bitterblossom as well as lingering souls. After side he had SoFI and 6 discard, he boarded out his removal. SoFI was very good against me, so was Jace (obviously) and Discard. Games I didn't open with Top I lost.

I guess my main issue is what to side in and what to side out. Anyone have any good links to someone going into sideboard plans and matchups?

Things I was inclined to side out

- Vendilion clique (as he has a lots of flyers)
- Spell pierce in favour of Red Elemental blast although I don't think this is the right call
- Counterspell
- portent

Things I wanted to board in

- Red Elemental Blast (again not sure this was that good)
- Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant obvisouly
- Terminus
- Baneslayer Angels (this turned out to be pretty bad, he sided out his removal as expected but sided in even more discard and he Jace as a backup)
- Reliq of Progenitus (I like this card a lot, even mainboard, and I think it's needed in this matchup)

I think I maybe -2Clique, -1Counterspell, -1Portent for +2Reliq, +1Seal, +1 Disenchant might be the best option.

I tried boarding out some Swords to plowshares but I'm convinced I need them to take out Stoneforge mystics and possibly equipped creatures to stall the game.

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Originally Posted by Setherial

..I'm currently playing Joe Lossetts list
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/37935
And I was struggling in my matchup (playtest) against EsperBlade running Bitterblossom as well as lingering souls.

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I recommend cutting one O. Ring + 1x and adding 2 Detention Sphere, as it not only solves token and Enchantment issues but is generally awesome.

Setherial, I do several things differently than you suggested. I think you are right in that you want the baneslayers and disenchant effects, plus one or two blasts. I might also want the third clique. To make room, I would be cutting a mix of swords, spell pierce, and forces. Shaving forces is something that I think most players do not do often enough. I have not played against esper with bitterblossom so my opinion might not be worth a lot, but relic does not seem strong.

I agree with Malakai that izzet charm seems pretty awful in uw control. I spent 20 seconds trying to think of a matchup where I would be happy to have it, and didn't come up with anything.

Joe Lossett

@ klaus
In short:
-Spell Pierce for UR isn't Spell Pierce.
-Shock kills random goblins, fish, Mom, Goblin Guide, and mana dorks. But since this costs 2, it only kills random goblins and Goblin Guides that have already done damage to you. Hell, it can't even kill Goblin Piledriver.
-You have to squint your eyes to think of reasons why most decks would want to cast Careful Study, but I can't think of any for a control deck.

More generally, two mana for effects that are barely worthwhile for one does not a good card make. Would you rather have Lightning Bolt in your deck, or Lightning Helix? Mostly, I just can't think of a deck where I'd rather have the charm than Counterspell.

@ Setherial
-4 Force of Will, -2 Vendilion Clique, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 REB, +2 Disenchant
Maybe a third disenchant effect, and up your Snapcaster count if the deck is prevalent enough. Terminus is fine, but you probably don't want four--three might even be a bit heavy. If your meta already has e.g. tribal decks, you could also look to Engineered Plague to make all of his guys embarassing.

Other options include playing CounterTop Thopters instead, or jamming your own Lingering Souls.

I dont want to return about the topic of goblins again, but if for you is a very very difficult match up or your meta is infected of goblins, you have to splash black rather than red, and put 3 engineered plague in your sb, also you can play duress rather than red elemental blast, is not the same but....

In other hand, two questions:

1)Whats your opinion about playing detection sphere rather than oblivion ring? I think that I prefer detection sphere because is blue.

2) Supreme verdict, one wrath of good that cant be countered sounds sweet, Do you like to play playing 1 supreme verdict and 3 terminus for example ?

Thank you,

Sphere is probably better than O Ring since it can randomly 2 for 1 or deal with tokens and is blue, but it can't be forgotten that one of the matchups we want it most - Show and Tell - it gets worse postboard since it gets hit by Blasts.

@klaus: I agree detention sphere seems powerful, works as another sweeper against tokes. I already cut the o-ring for 1 sphere.

@oarsman & Malakai: Siding out Force is interesting. I used to do this when I was still playing Bant in games that turn into a long grind like the stoneblade matchup. That said I always fear loosing to Jace, in UWx Miracles even more so then back when playing Bant. I will playtest siding out Force and see where it leads, I definatly see the benefits.

Joe, I don't get why you would want a 3th clique in a flying token matchup? Also don't you feel like you need the Swords to plowshares to slow down stoneforge Mystic. They're obviously not awesome in this matchup but they do give you more time to get control.

thanks guys

Losing. Loose describes how tight something is.

You can't afford Force's alternate cost when they're already attacking your hand with discard.

I have used Stillmoon Cavalier in UW Blade vs. EsperBlade to great effect. The only way they can interact with it is a jitte that already has counters, or Jace bounce.

I've piloted the following list with a 4-1 to place 2 in my locals. The Sideboard has 2 Extra-Metaslots which are the 2 Grafdigger's Cage. They should be 1 Humility and 1 more slot I wouldnt see as fixed. Here's the list:

//Lands
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Glacial Fortress
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
//Creatures
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
//Win
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Entreat the Angels
1 Batterskull
//Removal/Catch-all
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
//Counterspells
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
//Cantrips/Top
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
//Sideboard
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Flusterstorm
3 Counterbalance
2 Meddling Mage
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Humility
2 Grafdigger's Cage

I won vs: Affinity 2-0, Canadian Threshold 2-0, Dredge 2-0, Miracleblade(70card-mirrir) 2-0 and lost to DDFT 0-2...


I was totally happy with the mainboard, the sideboarded Counterbalances seem just right. I am not totally sure about the Meddling Mages though. They can lead to occasional blowouts because they're rather unexpected...but as said, not sure yet. Oblivion Ring got swapped to Detention Sphere 5 minutes ago (damn mail! why not deliver it faster!) And, yeah I really like the synergy with Mishra +Terminus / + Humilty... Mishra is one of the best Nimble-Stoppers in the earlygame (though only bad/desperate Thresh players start with a Nimble to hit you, if they have the choice) and trades 1-1 with him lategame, though being susceptible to Stifle....
Ah, and the Marsh Flats got a Polluted Delta which I thought to have lost :P


Any questions about the list?

Greetings

Vendilion Clique deals with Stoneforge about as well as swords does, but it can also attack when their are no tokens in play. Comparing to swords, which does nothing when they do not have Stoneforge. It is not a decision that I am ultra-confident in, but I think I am right.

Somebody convince me that one should run Detention Sphere is better than Oblivion Ring, because I'm not convinced yet that it's really better. Yes it is blue, which gives extra cards to pitch to force, and yes it can deal with tokens better or randomly get multiple permanents. However, against Show and Tell decks, which I think is a rough matchup for Miracles in general, the fact that sphere is blue is actually a liability. Suddenly they have an answer named Pyroblast to our answer; whereas before Oblivion Ring was hard for them to deal with.

In fact, I think the Show and Tell matchup is one of the strongest reasons to run Oblivion ring effects in the first. (I mean, it's always useful as a versatile answer to begin with, but sometimes lacks the, "Wow this is a really good/efficient card for X matchup" effect.) As such, choosing to run sphere over ring for the Show and Tell matchups is definitely weaker. But to me, I don't see the benefits in other matchups really being all that great. Since ring/sphere generally sees play as a sideboard card anyway, when you bring it in you probably actually want to cast it. (I'd probably agree with sphere being better as a MB card though, because pitching to force is more relevant in random matchups). Yes options are nice, but a lot of times you actually need your ring/Sphere to answer random nonland permanents that have entered play that might be trouble otherwise (Jace, Sulfurix Vortex, etc.). Most decks already won't want to overextend into Terminus, so getting a 2-for-1 is unlikely, and getting tokens is pretty fringe usefulness, since few decks are playing things like Lingering Souls.

Anyway, just my thoughts. Somebody convince me otherwise.

Joe: thanks, that makes sense and I agree it's a difficult call.

Malakai: thanks, discard does weaken the role force plays quite a bit. Playing Stillmoon Cavalier however seems both mana intensive and not worth sideboard slots. It's just not good enough. I might be wrong, I haven't tested it but I will.

Valtrix: I would not play Oblivion Ring over Detention Sphere just because of Red Elemental Blast. Show and Tell decks will almost always side in bounce which deals with o-ring just the same. Counterbalance is still your best defence against blasts and is overall good against show and tell decks.

The biggest problem with Detention Sphere is the mirror. In a significant number of games the fact that you can't d-sphere a d-sphere is very relevant (your Jace get's sphere'd).

Yeah it pitches to force and removes a number of things at once (but terminus already does this, and can be instant speed). But the fact that it gets red blasted and can't remove itself are both prominent liabilities. I'm not writing it off yet, I'm just not convinced its better than oring based on testing.

I was grinding out the mirror last night, mostly just to learn how the deck plays from the inside-out, and Detention Sphere was great. I'll agree, Pyroblast did kill Detention Sphere, but in the mirror, if they Entreat, you need to get rid of those tokens.

I've found the mirror to be heavily dependent on (obviously) who Entreats, who Counterbalances, and who Cliques. extra Cliques were great (again, pretty sure you guys know this). Pyroblast was also another card to beat. I'll agree Pyro killing Detention Sphere is a bonus, but I'd have rather had Sphere in this particular instance (I did manage to muck 4 Angels with a Sphere, so maybe I'm a bit biased).

-Matt

Also, I should mention I run EE main, not sure if you do as well Matt, but that makes me think less of detention sphere when I already have that effect vs angels.

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Originally Posted by Teknique

The biggest problem with Detention Sphere is the mirror. In a significant number of games the fact that you can't d-sphere a d-sphere is very relevant (your Jace get's sphere'd).

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Well from your perspective in the game, this would be a negative about the card. However, the other guy is thinking the exact opposite. My suggestion to winning the Sphere battle is to protect your Walker better and have other ways to get rid of an opposing Sphere (Red blast, EE, Grip, whatever). Anyway, Sphere seems especially powerful from your opponent's perspective so it is hardly a knock on the card.

Couldn't edit my post, so I said fuck it. Here's the second post.

I've been out of the game for a while, but have been getting the sexual urges to play again. Definitely interested in this deck because I can't remember this format with a strong board control deck. It's been years. I dislike just throwing out lists, but I'm doing so mostly because I have some ideas I feel could be decent. So, the list.

Lands - 23
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tundra
2 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Plains
1 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas

Win Conditions - 4
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Entreat, the Angels

Counter Suite - 11
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance

Hand Sculptors - 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuition

Board Control - 12
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
1 Constant Mists
2 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict

Recursion - 2
1 Noxious Revival
1 Crucible of Worlds

Needs trimming, but the main difference is Intuition and Constant Mists. I've seen people try Intuition, which is awesome. Love the card and wished it would be played in decks that try to maximize it's use rather than just as a 3 mana tutor for one card. I want all 3, or at least 2. Anyway, I like the redundancy it provides and you can set some nice piles up. My favorite is definitely Constant Mists, Crucible, and Noxious Revival since it just fucks up Goblins day. Noxious Revival alone is also pretty bossy in here and I wonder why it doesn't see more play. A lot of the other piles are pretty apparent or at least common and then the rest of the list is standard. Just something I wanted to throw out there as a way to stop the Goblin assault since I read it's been trouble. Might be too cute and is also vulnerable to artifact hate via Crucible if you are low on lands, but can still at least stall until you wipe the board.

Jak, I'm happy to see you like Intuition too! It's certainly one of my favorite cards, and I've been playing it for awhile. My list is here, and there are some extended thoughts about Intuition, as I've played with it for quite awhile.

For your list in particular some thoughts:

Noxious Revival is really not that great. Like, it's okay...but in reality this deck can afford to play no cards other than Force that give card disadvantage. The tricks with miracle are cute, but if that's the case Personal Tutor is just better since it gets Entreat, Terminus, or anything fancy you might run. I used to run Enlightened Tutor (which I think is better than either of these options), but the card disadvantage really sucks.

4 win-conditions is not enough due to time-constraints in matches to not leave you with draws. You need at least 5 (3 Jace + 2 Entreat), but I would recommend playing the 4th Jace as well. It matters a lot when you have to pitch him to force, and Jace is the best answer to Jace.

Constant mists could be decent combined with crucible, but you don't actually have a reliable way to get it into your hand. So, when you have it without the engine to make it work, it ends up being pretty terrible. If you want to deal with goblins you should first look at incorporating Batterskull into the list, and second at lock pieces like humility, moat, or engineered plague.

If you run Intuition you should run two maze of ith in my opinion. There are a lot of situations where intuition is too clunky against fast decks unless you can go for 2x Maze + 1x Loam, which gets you answers to a creature next turn, and sets you up for long term advantage. Plus Maze has great synergy with Terminus already.

I haven't played with Crucible and it sounds okay in theory, but I fear there isn't the consistency to maximize it's potential. You don't really want to setup a ruins pile with it either since you'd have to get loam + ruins + crucible, which isn't very good. That said, I like it in general, so it could have merit.

For Utility lands I've never been sold on the singleton wasteland. You are going to be probably the most manahungry deck in every matchup, and typically you have better piles to setup than getting a Wasteland. With Crucible it is more acceptable, but with just Loam you don't want to Loam every turn for a single wasteland. I have considered Dust Bowl though, which I think works much better with loam. I feel like there's generally better Intuition piles for the long game, but since I haven't really used it I can't comment very much on its merit. Similarly, you don't really want canopy in your piles either. Again, better with crucible, but too inconsistent to be worth it.

Also, you do want to run the 1x Savannah in the list in my opinion. I have wanted this color combination more often than you might expect, especially when you need to fetch out basic islands early.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Jak, I'm happy to see you like Intuition too! It's certainly one of my favorite cards, and I've been playing it for awhile. My list is here, and there are some extended thoughts about Intuition, as I've played with it for quite awhile.

For your list in particular some thoughts:

Noxious Revival is really not that great. Like, it's okay...but in reality this deck can afford to play no cards other than Force that give card disadvantage. The tricks with miracle are cute, but if that's the case Personal Tutor is just better since it gets Entreat, Terminus, or anything fancy you might run. I used to run Enlightened Tutor (which I think is better than either of these options), but the card disadvantage really sucks.

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Man, I feel really fucking stupid. You know it's been a while when you think Intuition is exactly the same as Gifts, or maybe I was thinking I could somehow recur Crucible. Either way, the Mists pile doesn't work at all. I agree then, Revival is not worth it since I was only running it for Intuition. I do like it as a Wish target if there is such a build with Cunning Wish.

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4 win-conditions is not enough due to time-constraints in matches to not leave you with draws. You need at least 5 (3 Jace + 2 Entreat), but I would recommend playing the 4th Jace as well. It matters a lot when you have to pitch him to force, and Jace is the best answer to Jace.

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I do agree. I originally had the 6 but win conditions are always the easiest to trim in a control deck. I'll take your word for it since I haven't played with this deck or Magic cards in a while.

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Constant mists could be decent combined with crucible, but you don't actually have a reliable way to get it into your hand. So, when you have it without the engine to make it work, it ends up being pretty terrible. If you want to deal with goblins you should first look at incorporating Batterskull into the list, and second at lock pieces like humility, moat, or engineered plague.

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I see that now that you pointed it out. Like I said above, I like it if there ever was a build with Cunning Wish. I was more looking for a non permanent way to stop creature assaults since I read above people were having trouble with Goblins splashing green for Grip. Either way though, that still will stop Crucible. Maybe a build with Loam and Mists, but that's more mana (1G + 1G a turn) and you miss your draw so Cycle lands would have to be involved. Probably too much work.

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If you run Intuition you should run two maze of ith in my opinion. There are a lot of situations where intuition is too clunky against fast decks unless you can go for 2x Maze + 1x Loam, which gets you answers to a creature next turn, and sets you up for long term advantage. Plus Maze has great synergy with Terminus already.

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I like this. I used to love running Maze in Trainwreck to just make people over extend into Damnation or Deed. I also really like it with Loam.

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I haven't played with Crucible and it sounds okay in theory, but I fear there isn't the consistency to maximize it's potential. You don't really want to setup a ruins pile with it either since you'd have to get loam + ruins + crucible, which isn't very good. That said, I like it in general, so it could have merit.

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I only picked it over Loam for the Mists package but with that not working at all, Loam is probably better. Plays nicer with Intuition.

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For Utility lands I've never been sold on the singleton wasteland. You are going to be probably the most manahungry deck in every matchup, and typically you have better piles to setup than getting a Wasteland. With Crucible it is more acceptable, but with just Loam you don't want to Loam every turn for a single wasteland. I have considered Dust Bowl though, which I think works much better with loam. I feel like there's generally better Intuition piles for the long game, but since I haven't really used it I can't comment very much on its merit. Similarly, you don't really want canopy in your piles either. Again, better with crucible, but too inconsistent to be worth it.

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Another card I liked because of Crucible but Loam locking someone with Wasteland is much harder since you have to add additional cards and mana.

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Also, you do want to run the 1x Savannah in the list in my opinion. I have wanted this color combination more often than you might expect, especially when you need to fetch out basic islands early.

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I'll take your word for it. I figured everything in the deck only needed one off color to cast, but I never considered fetching the early Islands.

I'll try out your list and actually test a bit and come back with some more input. Thank you for the reply, Valtrix.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Jak, I'm happy to see you like Intuition too! It's certainly one of my favorite cards, and I've been playing it for awhile. My list is here, and there are some extended thoughts about Intuition, as I've played with it for quite awhile.

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I've been kicking Intuition around and the suggestion of Maze makes it seem actually good. Are you still running the list you linked to, or have you changed that at all?
As you noted (cf. Hanni's comments), I would immediately drop the 3rd Intuition and maindeck counterbalances (with a couple other cards), adding a few counters, a 3rd sfm, and 2 cliques.
I'm currently planning on cutting the 2nd Maze and Kor Haven as well. A Loam-Maze-X pile still gets you next-turn Maze (assuming you can cast Loam), without overcommitting to dealing with creatures so heavily (4 swords, 3 terminus, 1 ee, 2 lands...). Have you found 2 truly necessary?

Since I haven't been playing much in my current location, so my list hasn't changed much. The only change I made was 1x Nihil Spellbomb over the 2nd Grafdigger's cage. I have played with balances in the main for so long, I'll keep my list that way until I get to play with them more, although my intuition (pun intended) is telling me they are better out of the main right now. I like that Intuition also means that you can assemble countertop more reliably. I can't fault you for dropping the 3rd Intuition, I have played with 2 for while, but I always find it so strong when I draw it that I've been wanting the 3rd one. However, I wouldn't play without two mazes. First off, that 2x Maze + 1x Loam pile is really powerful in a lot of matchups, so you really want to have access to that. Loam + maze + X is not nearly as strong. Additionally, the other important reason to run maze is as an answer to batterskull, something which can be a pain otherwise. Realistically it's not bad to have more creatures answers main, because a lot of the format is defined by creatures killing you so creature removal is rarely dead. As such I'm not worried about overloading on creature removal--usually it just means you put more hate for other things in your board and then stomp creature decks more when you run into them.

Well, I tried wastelands in the deck and the inconsistency was too much to merit their inclusion. I wanted some kind of card to deal with problem lands such as cavern of souls and academy ruins so I am trying out back to basics. Enlightened tutor and back to basics are in place of ponder and Snapcastermage. I switched o ring to detention sphere to keep up the blue count and shaved some nonbasics as well. Playing one back to basics seems like it could win more games than Snapcastermage ever could and I don't think having one in the deck is overcommitting to the strategy. Here is the list for reference. Still trying to sort out the sideboard, enlightened tutor changes it a bit...

2 tundra
7 island
2 plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 karakas
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 terminus
4 counterbalance
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's diving top
4 brainstorm
2 entreat the angels
1 Detention Sphere
4 swords to plowshares
3 jace the mind sculptor
4 force of will
2 counterspell
1 Back to Basics

Sb
1 Terminus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Engineered explosives
1 Rest in Peace
2 Path of exile
2 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat

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Originally Posted by Guy I Don't Know

Well, I tried wastelands in the deck and the inconsistency was too much to merit their inclusion. I wanted some kind of card to deal with problem lands such as cavern of souls and academy ruins so I am trying out back to basics. Enlightened tutor and back to basics are in place of ponder and Snapcastermage. I switched o ring to detention sphere to keep up the blue count and shaved some nonbasics as well. Playing one back to basics seems like it could win more games than Snapcastermage ever could and I don't think having one in the deck is overcommitting to the strategy. Here is the list for reference. Still trying to sort out the sideboard, enlightened tutor changes it a bit...

2 tundra
7 island
2 plains
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
1 karakas
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Enlightened Tutor
3 terminus
4 counterbalance
3 spell pierce
4 sensei's diving top
4 brainstorm
2 entreat the angels
1 Detention Sphere
4 swords to plowshares
3 jace the mind sculptor
4 force of will
2 counterspell
1 Back to Basics

Sb
1 Terminus
1 Spell Pierce
2 Ethersworn Cannonist
2 Engineered explosives
1 Rest in Peace
2 Path of exile
2 Counterspell
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat

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With MD ET. it's easy to go down to 3 or even 2 CBs imo (should probably be 1-2 SCMs). Karakas might not be worth it if you build your mana base around B2B, so it could be another Fetchland. Just my 2 pence.

Have you considered the combo Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience

because this decks looks really like a good shell for it..

Whats the matchup like against a Bant deck?

Hey Control freaks,
this is my current weapon of choice. I commented a bit on the "not-core" - feel free to bash. And have a perfect Sunday!

Core (pretty much agreed upon):
4 Top
4 Fow
4 BS
4 STP
3 Terminus
3 Jace
3 SCM
2 EtA

Individual Choices:
3 CB ---------------- could be 2 (potential replacements: D. Sphere #2, Ponder #2, Clique #3)
2 Clique ---------------- it's an on off relationship we lead, but for the time being it's rather romantic
1 D. Sphere -------------- definitely better swiss knife than EE / O. Ring imo. I could see 2 being beneficial in SnT-heavy metas.
3 Pierce ------------------ the only reason I consider CS over Pierce is the CB curve. Pierce spells: "make it to the mid-game rather safe" - I like that.
1 Ponder -------------Mon Goblin Chief convinced me to cut a land for a Ponder - it's really cool at helping assemble CB+Top and basically provide you what you need.
1 Supreme Command --------------- basically Terminus #4. Better CB curve pitchable to FOW, uncounterable and the comparably high casting cost is mitigated by the fact that you will hardly ever draw it early due to its one-of-ness. So most of the time it's easy to cast.
(--38--)

Land:
9 Fetch
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas ---------------- (I'd love to run 2 Factories, but don't want to be screwed with this quite color-heavy list)
(--22--)

SB:
3 REB
2 Disenchant
1 CB
1 Jace
1 Terminus
1 PtE
2 RiP
2 Surgical Extraction
2 meta slots

how comes none likes Banishing Stroke in this deck?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Poron

how comes none likes Banishing Stroke in this deck?

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tbh - I haven't tested it yet. I'd also be curious to know about specific test results.

If you want a "catch-all" answer, I think that Oblivion Ring is generally just better than Banishing Stroke for three main reasons:

1) Oblivion Ring answers Jace, something that is very important in many blue matchups
2) Oblivion Ring is incredibly good against Show and Tell decks.
3) Banishing Stroke, while 2 mana less when miracled, increases your inconsistency. As in there will be more situations where you're stuck with a miracle card in hand that you can't get out of it with a brainstorm or Jace.

As such, I don't think that the effect of Banishing Stroke is powerful enough to really warrant the above negative effects when compared to Oblivion Ring. In fact, I don't think Banishing Stroke is a powerful effect to even overcome problem #3, even when not comparing Banishing Stroke to other cards. Banishing Stroke was played of as a 1-2 of in a few sideboards for Miracle Control maybe a month or longer ago, but I think most people have agreed that it's not very good, so it sees almost no play in SBs now.

I know this happened a couple of weeks ago, but...

Quote:

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I'll concede that I haven't played the game in quite a while, and that my understanding of the current state of the format when I posted that response may have been a little off.

Still though... I can still name a ton of problematic 2cc spells in most of those decks, and there are more than 7 decks that see play in Legacy.

Against RUG, yea the only cc you really care about is 1cc, I agree. 12 1cc spells, when 4 of those are Top (perma 1cc stoppage), is more than enough to handle 1cc spells. This has always been the case for this deck.

Against Maverick, they still 2cc stuff you want to stop. I agree that 1cc and 3cc seem more problematic, but they still have SFM, Jitte, Thalia, hardcast Teeg/Qasali/Ooze, among other things.

Against Miracles, 2cc stops opposing Counterbalances, Snapcasters, and Counterspells. If they are doing the SFM hybrid thing, it also hits SFM.

Against Show and Tell, yea I agree. You really just want a 3cc spell to float on top to secure that one. Hitting the 1cc cantrips is definitely relevant, but hitting 3cc is the main issue. My list runs 5 3cc spells, which is about as much as I can comfortably hit without cutting what I consider to be "other important spells." Of course, it's always possible to bring in some additional 3cc spells out of the sideboard (Detention Sphere sounds like a solid choice, for example).

Against Merfolk, if they have Vial or Cavern in play, Counterbalance is irrelevant regardless. If they don't have either of those, 2cc is the most relevant cc range to cover. All of their creatures, besides Cursecatcher and Merrow Reejery, are 2cc. Even Standstill is 2cc, for the lists that run it.

Against the other Tribal, yea you want to reliably hit 1cc. Against Goblins, they have such a varied curve that Counterbalance is usually bad even if they don't have Vial or Cavern. 3cc is usually the best range to hit, since it nabs their lords and Matron, but it can vary depending on their list. I board out all of my Counterbalances in this matchup anyway.

Against Stoneblade, the lists can vary alot, but you hit SFM, Snapcaster, Jitte, Counterspell if they run it, Standstill if they run it, among other things. 2cc is the most relevant spot to hit here. Now if you're talking about Esperblade, then yea, you want 1cc to hit their discard and 3cc to hit their Souls, but that doesn't make hitting 2cc any less relevant. 2cc can also hit Confidant in the lists that run him.

Against Belcher, I was under the impression that they ran a good bit of 2cc spells... two 2cc red rituals, Burning Wish... regardless, the last time I played against Belcher, 0cc was the most important target, hitting Petal/Mox/LED (their IMS and/or Belcher activators if they can't hit 7+ mana when going for Belcher). 1cc hits a few things, and is definitely relevant, but isn't 0cc and 2cc the more important range to hit?

Aside from the above... against the rest of the format, 2cc is still relevant, is it not?

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That was my response to Koby regarding the Counterbalance curve. While I still believe that 2cc is a relevant cc range to be able to reliably counter, and while I still think 15 1cc spells is overkill to reliably counter 1cc spells, I do agree with you that hitting the 3cc range is really important these days. I did a bit of stress testing on the curve, and it seems as though dropping from 10 2cc spells to 8 2cc spells was sufficient. It's not consistently reliable, but it's not too difficult to get a 2cc spell on top if it's a range you need to stop in the given matchup. I still wish I could run more, but there is only so much room in the deck, and dropping below 12 1cc spells is literally impossible (literally). So even though I dropped down to 8 2cc spells, I was able to get my 3cc spells up to 8 as well. That's actually pretty awesome, considering that it improves my ability to counter so much more shit with Counterbalance.

So I guess I'm saying that while I don't feel that I was necessarily wrong, that I do feel that you were right, Koby.

Anyway, getting my 3cc curve up was actually pretty easy. After a bunch of testing and theorizing, I decided that Snapcaster Mage pretty much sucks in here. It's card advantage, sure, if you're considering a 2/1 Savannah Lions with flash as part of that card advantage. Don't get me wrong, Snapcaster has been amazing for me before, in both this deck and other decks (more so in Stoneblade decks), I'm just not sure that's what I want to be doing. The ability to randomly block and trade with opposing creatures does happen sometimes, but I really don't want 2/1 vanilla bodies. I'm not Stoneblade; I'm not running Jitte's to make SCM a relevant threat or defender. The card quality increase once I have the relevant spells in my graveyard is awesome, but that takes time to happen. Graveyard hate seems like it is consistently getting stronger, as they continue to print more maindeck playable graveyard hate spells. It also prevents me from running the most powerful graveyard hate spell printed to date in Rest in Peace. SCM is really a 3-4cc spell anyways, and since I need to have already casted the spell earlier, it's pretty much a late game card. It's just not what I want to be doing.

On the other hand, Clique is fucking bonkers. I mean, I cannot believe I never saw this before, in all of my years of testing this deck prior to Miracles. I guess my will to play the deck creatureless to render my opponent's spot removal dead was just hurting my ability to evolve as a deckbuilder. The fact that it can be cast at instant speed means that I can play the entire early game as draw-go (excluding Top, cause I will cast it if I have it all day every day). Once turn 3 rolls around, I can still stay untapped to hold mana open for Counterspells, Brainstorms, Swords to Plowshares, etc... and then if I don't need one of those spells, I can cast Clique EOT. Nearly every single blue deck in the format is running Spell Pierce right now, which Clique conveniently dodges. If my opponent burns a countermagic spell on it, that puts them down 1 card (or 2 if they used FoW), and down some amount of mana (-1 land from Daze, 1 tapped land from Pierce, 2 tapped lands from Counterspell), which means I'm getting to untap and go into my turn 4 with the opponent down a spell and down some amount of mana (or down 2 cards and no mana if they used FoW). If they don't counter it, the ETB goes on the stack. Even if they burn a removal on it at this point, I'm getting to see my opponent's hand. That information is invaluable. It lets me know if I can safely tap out to cast Jace when I untap, whether or not I should drop the Counterbalance yet, so on and so forth. I then get to get rid of one of their spells if I feel that it's worth it to do so. In the control and other blue mirrors, the effect alone is just so huge. I already knew these points before, though.

Vendilion Clique gives the deck a great alternate win condition. Unlike SCM, a 3/1 flier can easily go the distance. 7 swings with an opponent at full life, but only 6 if they cracked a couple of fetches (almost always the case), and possibly even just 5. I knew this before, though.

Clique's ability can put a Terminus in hand back on bottom and give me a fresh draw when I don't have a Brainstorm or Jace. While not nearly as good as flashing back a Brainstorm with SCM, it can still be useful in a pinch (or for getting rid of any other dead cards in hand). I already knew this, but it's just a point I wanted to toss out there.

Here's where shit changed for me:
What I knew about, but never really evaluated and appreciated, is how amazing the synergy between Karakas and Clique truly is. Once you have a Karakas on the board, Clique becomes immune to spot removal if you leave the Karakas untapped, and you can bounce the Clique back before wiping the board with Terminus, and then recasting it EOT to continue with the beats. So with Karakas, I get a creature that I can play at instant speed, for a lovely 1UU cost, as a 3/1 flier with a great ETB ability, that I can bounce to my hand at will when necessary so that it's incredibly difficult to deal with. In the control and combo matchups, I actually value Clique more than Jace now.

It's less stellar against aggro, but can still block and trade with a Mongoose. As this deck lacks answers to Mongoose other than Terminus, this is a pretty nice usage. There are other creatures it can also deal with in this way, and is particularly nice when cast during the declare attackers phase. Surprise, buttsex.

However... Kor Haven. I never actually thought about using Kor Haven in this deck, for anything other than neutralizing an attacker from damage me, even back in the old original lists when I still had Factories. Just use it to neutralize attackers, yea that's cool. What I didn't realize was... I can use Kor Haven to prevent combat damage being dealt to my Clique, as my Clique blocks the creature and kills it without dying. Holy shit that's awesome. Then of course, you know, the ability to just neutralize an attacker, forcing the opponent to over-commit threats to the board and walk into Terminus; especially nice with Kor Haven and Jace on a clean board.

Speaking of over-committing, Vedalken Shackles. This was my go-to removal spell in this deck for such a long time. The new kid on the block showed up, and the Shackles got shoved out of the door. You know what though? Shackles plays extremely well with Terminus. Drop a Shackles, sweep with Terminus, and now the opponent has to over-commit threats to get past Shackles. Only this time... they can walk into another Terminus. The main reason I started considering Shackles again was to have an answer to the Mother of Runes + Teeg lock, since I felt that Karakas alone was not enough. I actually like the idea of running Kor Haven and Shackles in combination with Terminus, though. At the very least, it gives me a very strong tool to combat both Merfolk and Goblins maindeck (when used in combination with Terminus, of course). It's also sort of cool to think of it as another possible win-condition, albeit rather rare.

So that's pretty much where I'm at right now. Overall, the changes themselves are pretty subtle, and there are probably people out there already doing this. I kinda stopped keeping up with this thread when I started playing Guild Wars 2 heavily, and after the deck exploded in popularity and had a name change. I do think it's the right direction for the deck to move into as a U/W Draw-Go, Counterbalance Control deck.

Also, before I go ahead and post the list, I want to briefly discuss why I not only think SCM is wrong, why I also think the hybrid lists with SFM is wrong.

First of all, Clique seems to be the better alternate win condition in terms of speeding up the clock, for the various reasons I've already listed.

Secondly, you're trying to run a creature that needs to survive a full turn before you can cheat Batterskull into play, in a deck with very few creatures. Nearly every deck besides combo runs creature removal maindeck, and most decks will have it stockpiled before you drop the 2-of (or whatever-of) SFM. You don't have other creatures for the opponent to have already burned removal spells on. Wasting resources, especially Force of Will, seems counter-productive to protect a Squire, regardless if it can cheat in a Batterskull or not. This deck is "The Control," not "The Beatdown," and should be focusing on controlling the gamestate rather than forcing the action. Control mirrors are different in that regard, but even still, I'd rather have Clique for those.

SFM/Batterskull does not play nice with Terminus, at least not until deep into the midgame, or more often, into the lategame. Wiping the board and then making Batterskull active again requires 3 mana for the bounce, and 5 mana at sorcery speed for the hardcast. Ouch. Talk about giving Spell Pierce a whole new meaning, let alone being unable to protect it from artifact removal while you're tapped out. Honestly, as slow as it takes to get Batterskull down, a 4/4 Lifelink Vigiliance is only really scary against aggro decks like Goblins and Merfolk, but not even so much against Goblins. Goblins likely has the uncounterable Gempalm Incinerator for her before you get to untap with her, so it's unlikely that Batterskull is coming down anytime soon, and Goblins has ways of dealing with it before you can actually kill them with it anyway.

Against Merfolk it's strong, if it resolves while it's still relevant, and if they don't have a Disemember. Wasting resources protecting the SFM in this case is likely the right call, considering how strong Batterskull is vs them. I suppose in a Merfolk-infested metagame, going with SFM would be the best option... but at that point, I question why someone would play a hybrid version of this deck over playing Stoneblade.

My other problem with SFM is that it's cast at sorcery speed, and the later you wait to resolve it, the less impact it usually has. And let's face it... even if SFM eats removal and you are up +1 CA, hardcasting Batterskull is not the strongest thing to be doing for 5 mana, especially when you could be making three 4/4 Angel tokens with flying by then. Until that point, Batterskull just sits in hand as a dead draw until you use a Brainstorm or Jace. And the +1 CA you're gaining really isn't +1 CA if the removal would have been sitting in the opponent's hand dead in the first place.

Back to the sorcery speed issue though. SFM forces you to be proactive rather than reactive. So instead of running 4 Counterspells, you run a 2/2 split of CS/Pierce instead so that you can still have mana open to counter stuff after you cast SFM. Without worrying about tapping out early, it's very easy to play draw-go and hold open UU for Counterspell, and wait to cast your spells like Counterbalance until you have an additional UU open (doing this also happens to dodge Daze and Pierce when you do that). On the other hand, Clique plays extremely well with Counterspell. Going past the first few turns of the game, Pierce becomes a fairly bad counter in most matchups (as if it wasn't already narrow by not hitting creatures). I'm not saying Pierce is a bad countermagic spell, and I run 4 in my board to increase my density of countermagic in matchups where I can easily board out removal (vs Control and Combo), but I'd definitely run 4 Counterspell before running any Pierce. Running Pierce even skews the Counterbalance curve by taking you above 12 1cc spells. But this is not about me discussing Pierce, it's about SFM.

I just don't agree that the risk vs reward for using SFM in here is worth it. In Stoneblade, it's a completely different story. She's a perfect fit in there. In here? Meh. I'd rather run (more) Clique's instead.

I had alot of other good points I wanted to make earlier, but I can't seem to recall them all, so I'll stop there for now. I'm sure I started up enough of a stir with that as it is.

If I recall any of the other good points I had regarding why I disagree with SFM here, I'll make a new post.

Anyway, here's my new list:

U/W Control 2k12

// Lands (22)
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Tundra
6 [UNH] Island
1 [UNH] Plains
2 [LG] Karakas
1 [NE] Kor Haven

// Creatures (3)
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells (35)
2 [AVR] Entreat the Angels
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [CS] Counterbalance
4 [IA] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
3 [AVR] Terminus
2 [RTR] Detention Sphere
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard (15)
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 4 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 2 [MI] Disenchant
SB: 2 [TE] Humility
SB: 2 [M10] Pithing Needle
SB: 4 [RTR] Rest in Peace

The only thing I wish I could do, is fit 2 Wastelands to deal with Cavern of Souls vs Goblins. Unfortunately, I cannot fit any more non-blue producing lands without reducing my consistent to hit UU on turn 2, and any fewer blue lands also weaken my Shackles. I like where my Goblins matchup is at postboard, though.

At any rate, let the bashing begin.