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I don't know if red is the way to go. I mean you could load up on blasts, but then sneak attack comes down and you've been durdling. They also board in leylines against us. I guess the best case scenario would be an end of turn surgical/extirpate on their intuition griselbrand and then pray they don't get emrakul out in time. But honestly they have all the time in the world against our clock.
Not quite -- white versions that are running Rector can sideboard Humility. I've been doing it in my white list, and while it's strange and awkward, it does actually work. I've also been experimenting with Nevermore -- if you can lock down one of their enablers, and name the other with Therapy/hopefully Surgical it, you can put the deck in a real bind. It's like any other combo deck...it needs to be prisoned out for us to beat it.
I am splashing white in my build that includes 2 birthing Pod's. In my board I run both Teeg, and Peacekeeper, as well as 3 extripates. I actually all of them very useful vs sneak decks that pack no removal, or are unprepared for them. Peacekeeper should also be very good against reanimator.
Apologies for the double post, but I wanted to take advantage of my lunch break to actual get my decklists up, and nobody had replied yet this morning.
The White:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
1x Fleshbag Marauder
3x Academy Rector
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Kokusho, the Evening Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
3x Garruk Relentless
1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
2x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Phyrexian Tower
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Plains
3x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
//SB
1x Humility
1x Nevermore
1x Chains of Mephistopheles
1x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3x Surgical Extraction
2x Tsunami
3x Carpet of Flowers
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
The white list has continued to evolve more as a control/prison deck than anything else. Humility feels awful in this deck, but it seems to be the ticket to beating Sneak/Show....or at least having a chance vs them. At the end of the day, we have a lot more 1/1s than they do. God is it awkward, but it seems to be the only thing that is capable of truly stopping them. They do have some bounce, but with Griselbrand to draw them 7 cards, they have a hard time finding it. Surgicals are murder vs them, although Leyline of Sanctity is equally good vs us, turning off Therapy. Chains is a beating for them, additionally. We do have some tools to fight them with this style of list, but it's still really hard. I'd much rather be tuning my list to squash pretty much anything else, but Show/Tell is putting up dumb enough numbers that something has to be done. I don't really want to think about what's going to happen if Hypergenesis sticks around, since that seems (on paper) like it would be about the worst matchup that one could possibly have with this deck.
Maindeck is pretty much the same, although Fleshbag is back as a nod to Show and Tell, while still maintaining utility against Canadian (and general purpose as a sac outlet for Rector). This list still annihilates Canadian Thresh -- if that's what you want to beat, this is where you want to be. Tsunami and Carpet are still ridiculous out of the board. That said, Canadian might start to get a little harder now that they're beginning to drop Spell Snare...that'll be two-three fewer dead cards in their board.
The Red:
1x Dryad Arbor
4x Veteran Explorer
3x Eternal Witness
3x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Primeval Titan
1x Broodmate Dragon
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Burning Wish
2x Scapeshift
3x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Pernicious Deed
2x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1x Phyrexian Tower
4x Taiga
2x Bayou
4x Badlands
1x Stomping Ground
3x Forest
2x Mountain
1x Swamp
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills
//SB:
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Virtue's Ruin
1x Tsunami
1x Innocent Blood
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Thoughtseize
1x Hymn to Tourach
1x Damnation
1x Scapeshift
1x Wandering Stream
1x Haunting Echoes
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Regrowth
This list has changed a little. It's a bit more focused now, and I have raced burn with it on multiple occasions. The fact that its primary wincondition is based in the mana base makes it surprisingly effective against Sneak/Show. They have to counter your discard, which is amplified by Burning Wish (my god do they hate Cranial Extraction). Then you Scapeshift to victory at 7 lands while they're gasping for breath. Or they can open up with the turn 1 Show and rape you, but that's the price you pay for playing any non-blue deck. However, this list so far has the best testing against Sneak/Show of all three. It actually has an efficient clock while maintaining a higher-than-normal amount of disruption. A lot of times the raw power of the Valakut kill will carry you through a match, but if that fails, you have something like four or five other paths to victory. Also, having access to Red Elemental Blast is absurdly good right now. This is probably my favorite list for the metagame IF it continues to evolve the way it has been. If Canadian makes a resurgence, the white list is still ahead -- the ability of it to demolish Canadian must not be understated.
The Blue
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Vampire Hexmage
3x Coiling Oracle
2x Eternal Witness
1x Grave Titan
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Duress
1x Life from the Loam
4x Living Wish
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2x Fact or Fiction
2x Gifts Ungiven
4x Brainstorm
1x Dark Depths
1x Volrath's Stronghold
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Phyrexian Tower
1x Wasteland
2x Tropical Island
2x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
3x Forest
2x Swamp
2x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
//SB
1x Ichneumon Druid
1x Gilded Drake
1x Karakas
1x Yixlid Jailer
1x Dark Depths
1x Vampire Hexmage
1x Simic Sky Swallower
2x Submerge
3x Flusterstorm
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Sylvok Replica
1x Phyrexian Revoker
The primary strength of the blue list is that it can quite literally bury you in card advantage. The 2/2 Gifts/Fact suite, alongside Brainstorms and Jaces, will help make sure you always have gas. The problem that the blue list is currently having is that it durdles a lot. It is definitely not streamlined, although it certainly possess an efficient kill condition in the form of Hex/Depths, which is aided and made more flexible by Living Wish. Additionally, this version plays a Loam/Wasteland engine, intended to be tutored in a Gifts pile. Although this seems odd in an Explorer deck, it's actually be working fairly well, since many decks currently are not running many basics, if any. As a late-game lock, it has been working well -- and the 1x Wasteland is forgivable outside of Loam/Gifts. Perhaps the strongest synergy that I've been abusing in the blue list thusfar is that of Brainstorm and Coiling Oracle, which provides an alternate ramp/card advantage machine. Oracle is also amazing with Recurring Nightmare, especially when you have another Oracle or an Eternal Witness in the graveyard. The biggest challenge that the blue list faces is being sufficiently streamlined, while still being able to fight the good fight. The sheer flexibility of the Wishboard offers a bit to make up for that, sporting extra copies of Hex and Depths, alongside Karakas, Gilded Drake, Ichneumon Druid, Yixlid Jailer, and other matchup allstars. I think that I'm finally close to a working blue list, but it definitely needs some serious refinement.
The Sneak and Tell matchup is unacceptably bad and the Meta is infested with that deck. Sucks.
Rector/Humility sounds like the best idea that I have heard of so far. As awkward as it might be, Rector versions probaby want it in the current Meta. It is the best card against Sneak and Tell and also great against Maverick.
In standard testing I was reminded of how good Lingering Souls was. I tried it with Stoneforge Mystic before in Nic Fit but Mystic completely sucks in this deck (you basically never ever get to equip anything) so I dismissed the idea. But Lingering Souls is already good on its own. It is also very good with Humility, blocks Delver and combats Jace. A bit random MWS testing was successful, Lingering Souls is cool. Also Curse of Death Hold is pretty nice atm vs. the non-Delver non-SnT decks.
Valakut version:
The mana base gets much worse. 12 lands that produce red mana that you don't need and two enter the battlefield tapped. Being forced to go up to 24 lands is unpleasant. With 4 Groves it already was a stretch. But most importantly winning is not the big problem in the current broken Meta. Not losing is the big problem and the Valakut doesn't improve that.
Try Ensnaring Bridge against Sneak Show.
Updated with the blue list.
Souls is an interesting idea, but I don't know where I would find room for them, and I don't like that they're awful with Deed. Also, that would encourage people to board in gy hate more than they already are, and I'd rather that didn't happen. That said, Curse of Death's Hold is something that was recently in my board (it got cut for one of the Cranial effects), and is definitely something that I have my eye on -- then I could board in Humility vs Maverick and not feel like a total derp.
I disagree that there isn't a need to win efficiently in the current meta. If you sit there and durdle for 5 years, Sneak/Show or whatever other combo deck that you happen to be fighting against is doing to dig out of the hole you have them in, and proceed to rip your face off. The pair of Valakuts haven't been a problem in testing, although sometimes the excess amount of mountains does get annoying. I'm not going to pretend that the mana base is perfect yet, but I do think that there's a way to make it work smoother still. I don't see it as a Valakut version per se, as much as a Burning Wish version. The strength of Burning Wish is absolutely absurd in this deck, and I think that Scapeshift is a legitimate engine to pair with it. I might try a version without Valakut at some point, but for now, I am greatly enjoying the explosive power that it grants the deck. There have been quite a few times where I've had the game completely locked down with the white version and was unable to find a wincon before they recovered and killed me. Sometimes, they just need to freaking die.
Played against SNT tonight against a very very bad player. Turn 2 snt emrakul with no library manipulation at all game 1
game 2 I got multiple duress/therapies, and even managed to surgical his show n tell after an intuition AND surgical his griselbrand after a cabal therapy. 2 turns later he sneaks an emrakul for lethal since i'd been -2 with the extractions..... Just.. wow. I got rid of half his win conditions and he still finds the other 2 pieces in 2 turns.
Won a small legacy tournament yesterday, with only nine players, instead of the usual twentyish.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Academy Rector
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Grave Titan
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Innocent Blood
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
SB
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Duplicant
2 Thoughtseize
1 Humility
3 Carpet of Flowers
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Curse of Death’s Hold
G1: U/W Blade 1-0
G2: Enchantress: 1-1
G3: Reanimator: 2-0
G4: U/R Delver: 2-1
...or Duplicant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Qweerios
Nelumbo --
Overall, I like your list. That said, I do see a few potential issues with it:
The biggest and most immediate is your mana base. You only have three white sources in the deck, and of them are both Wasteland-able and obvious Wasteland targets. Nobody's going to waste your Bayou when you have a pile of Forests and Swamps sitting next to them. This makes casting Sigarda should you draw her questionable, as well as Leyline of Sanctity and Humility out of the board. I know that ideally you don't want to be casting these things, but the situations will come up. Even the one-of basic Plains seems insufficient, in case of Vindicate, Sinkhole, Rishadan Port, and other similar fringe applications. At the very least I would trim out a Verdant for either a 2nd Plains or 2nd Savannah, depending on personal taste.
This is a minor quibble, but I don't like Inquisition right now. One of the major decks being Sneak/Show, and it being a matchup we have difficulty with in the first place, I think I would run Duress in that slot instead. Inquisition is better vs maverick, but Duress still hits GSZ, Swords, Sylvan Lib, and any equipment that they might fetch, while providing info for Cabal Therapy. If you felt ballsy/had more lifegain maindeck (ie Baneslayer), I think I'd just run Thoughtseize ideally, so you can take S/S's giant monster.
I also feel that Leyline of the Void would be better served as Surgical, since it lets you still have turn 0 interaction with dredge, while maintaining post-Spiral utility vs High Tide, and having application vs Sneak/Show.
Duplicant feels vastly too cute, I'm not gonna lie. Why not just run an O-Ring or a Fetters instead? That has more utility in other matchups. Duplicant is also only good vs the Show and Tell portion of the deck, and if their Show is Griselbrand, it's not going to resolve. Ever. And that's even assuming that you can cast it ... what if they Show on t2 and you don't have an Explorer + Tower?
@Starscream
I'm guessing that he Intuitioned EoT, so you didn't have a chance to use a discard spell on the Show and Tell? Show is usually the card I go for last vs Sneak/Show. Sneak Attack is vastly more dangerous, but if you can hit their dudes, then that's even better. I usually call Sneak Attack, then gauge my gameplan from there. Ideally, try to get Cranial Extraction/memoricide to resolve vs them, and take their Emrakuls. Griselbrand is significantly less frightening if he can't draw them into more business. Still frightening, I'll grant, but less so.
On a related note, Ensnaring Bridge is a horrible idea. They'll just draw 14 with GB and find a bounce spell. If you want to run something like Bridge, just run Humility so they can't draw into bounce. I mean, if you aren't running white, then I guess do what you have to....but it's pretty inferior IMO.
nelumbo: only 21 lands (including arbor)? How is that treating you?
Edit to respond to Arianrhod:
Yes, I surgical-off-top after he Intuition the SNT, saw he had 2 griselbrands in hand, so I therapied them next turn, and that's when I saw the sneak attack and emrakul.
In hindsight I guess I should've still gone with the sneak attack even though I didn't see it the first time.
Yeah -- I don't know if you're running Cranial/Mem in the board, but generally think of it this way:
Cabal Therapy is for enablers, because it's faster. Sneak is more dangerous than Show, so I call that first. Obviously adapt to their hand once you have information.
Cranial/mem is for their dudes. If they have a couple of Griselbrands in hand, then it's frightening, sure, because they can always sick rip, but that's less important than an enabler. Cranial will get rid of them for good -- although if you had something to flashback the Therapy, there's no harm in taking them on FB. Cranial order is Emrakul -> Griselbrand -> Progen (if you see them running any....some run him as a 2-of or so still).
Humility/Nevermore/whatever provides a tertiary layer of hate. I think that three levels of annoyance is about the best we're really going to be able to do, honestly.
What are your suggestions against other combo like high tide and storm?
Regarding the Sneak and Tell matchup, in a white splash build with rector, how about Nevermore. Perhaps Englithened Tutor board with Pithing Needle/O-Ring/Phyrexian Metamorph.
High Tide is actually pretty easy for my white list. G1 can be a crapshoot...it basically depends on their Spirals and how much discard you see. If you rip them apart hard early and then somehow get a fast enough clock on them, it'll go well. if they try to go off and their Spiral bricks into 4 lands and 3 counters, you're fine. I have a High Tide player locally who practically refuses to play against what my deck turns into postboard. My entire sideboard comes in except for the Elesh and the Humility, giving me angles of attack on every level except GSZ:
-Therapy names Brainstorm first, then depends on what information you get from their hand.
-Cranial/mem go for Time Spiral first, followed by Cunning Wish. Note that most High Tide players side out at least one High Tide card because they're scared of Surgical/Extirpate.
-Surgicals strip away cantrips and tutors. Hit their Brainstorms, Ponders, Preordains, and Merchant Scrolls....crapshoot. Whatever they use first, nuke.
-Tsunamis attack their mana base ferociously, while Carpets ramp you into more hate stupidly effectively.
-Permanent based hate in the form of Chains, Leyline, and Nevermore turn Rector into a potent weapon. High Tide literally cannot win with Chains of Mephistopheles in play. Nevermore names High Tide. Leyline stops Intuition and Blue Sun.
Storm is pretty similar, although it's a lot scarier to play against IMO due to the sheer speed they can kill you with. I don't bring in the Tsunamis, but most of the other lines of attack remain the same.
-Therapy always names LED first, without exception. LED is their most powerful card...it provides mana and empties their hand to take advantage of Infernal Tutor. as always, adjust to their hand afterward.
-Cranial/Mem depends on the kind of storm. If ANT, you can probably just name Tendrils and win. If TES, try to shut down their tutors, starting with Burning Wish.
-Surgicals are the same strategy, although if you can hit their Rituals, by all means do so. They tend to be hard to get, though....if you call LED and see Rite of Flame vs TES, and you have a Surgical in hand, then FB for it and Surgical it...same for Dark Rit vs ANT. Your goal is to make their life as awkward as possible. Usually hitting their cantrips is sufficient if you can't nuke their Rituals.
-Permanent based hate is the same. Nevermore names Ad Nauseum.
Thanks. I haven't played the rector version, mainly because I don't have any, but I'm thinking of taking a white splash to a tournament specifically for sigarda, pridemage, and teeg in the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Pridemage isn't good anymore...it used to be, when Stoneblade was big and Maverick was running Stoneforge...now it's only good vs Sneak Attack, and if there's a Sneak Attack in play, you're probably dead already.
I really don't like Teeg in this deck. Cranial/Memoricide is a much more powerful effect IMO, against more decks, and they're less susceptible to ... well, everything. He also shuts off our planeswalkers, Tsunami, and some of our enchantments. If I was going to run a GSZ target for anti-combo, I would run [cards]Ichneumon Druid[/card]. He's one more mana, but he's a much better hoser in general. Do you actively realize how much of a combo deck is made up of instants? Dark Ritual, High Tide, cantrips, Turnabout, Cunning Wish, Ad nauseum, Cabal Ritual, etc.
Sigarda, on the other hand, is every bit as awesome as she looks.
Also, Rectors aren't that expensive :P They're what, like 7 bucks? I guess you could run Enlightened Tutor as a kind of substitute, but that's really subpar IMO.
Well I don't have chain or moat, or nightmare, either. I would have to test it a lot online before trying to buy/trade that many different cards, so I'm working with what I have.
That's fair, then. Nightmare isn't too bad, I think...obv. Moat and Chains are a different story. IMO you can run the deck without them. Chains is stupidly good right now, but at the end of the day it's still just a sb card. You could probably substitute it with something like Curse of Exhaustion if you so desired, as another solid combo hate card. Moat isn't always good -- especially lately. However, I like it because it is an incredibly strong bullet against some decks. Additionally, reducing Canadian to 4 effective win conditions is pretty awesome. Depending on the type of Maverick list, it can be backbreaking for them ... as long as they don't find Elspeth. IMO the list becomes optimal, or closer to it, once you add the Moat....but frankly, there are definitely times when it just isn't that good, so you can probably get by without.
Also: has anyone had any thoughts or input on the blue list? I know it's rough, but I still feel like it could use some good critiquing.
In a burning wish build, you could go for Call the Skybreaker as your wishboard win-con. It takes 7 mana, but it'll just keep making 5/5's for you and if it gets countered, you can just re-cast it.
Worm Harvest seems like the better card here, due to its lower cost and more flexible color requirement, as well as being good against swarm strategies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenpoe
The problem with both of these cards is that they require Loam to use efficiently. I feel like something like an X burn spell would work just as well if not better, honestly...but I think that it's largely irrelevant anyway. Scapeshift and Haunting Echoes provide strong enough win conditions off of Burning Wish....with other cards like Tsunami and Cranial Extraction acting functionally as win conditions in some matchups.
Man, the discussions here are so much more refreshing than over at MTGS...
Ive been playing GBw Rector Fit in a few tournaments and love it so far. The list in the previous page w/ Moat was incredibly interesting and the sideboard as well.
The thing I am curious about is why all the love for Sigarda? Obviously she is great in a Moat build, but otherwise I dont see her as having much impact on the board to include over Thrun. Thrun can least always hit the board against blue to hunt down Jace, and he was the sole reason for my wins against UR Delver in my most recent tournament. Sigarda, on the other hand, gets caught up in counter magic and can't stem the bleeding from incoming Goyfs as well as Thrun, who can at least can block and regen.
I've also been testing a bit with Living Death, being an additional sweeper along side Deed that fits with a deck which utilizes Swords as its main removal spell and Ooze to clean out graveyards. This goes along well with the newly included Liliana (over garruk relentless) who finally can discard creatures sometimes...although I still fight with myself between choosing her or Garruk.
Hey Claymore -- welcome to the dark side =) I've occasionally poked my head in the Salvation thread and was quickly reminded of why I never post there (and indeed only really troll the site during spoiler season or when I feel like being disappointed by humanity).
I think that a lot of people do have an unnecessary hard-on for Sigarda, but it's not quite as bad as you have it. For one, she tends to come down late enough that your opponents generally either should be out of countermagic, or you should at least have a Therapy you can flashback before dropping her. But in Moatless builds, I definitely agree that she's not as good as what everyone credits her as being ... just like Thrun is awful in my build =)
I remember seeing that you were experimenting with Living Death and was very intrigued -- would you care to share your list? Obv. it's going to be quite a bit different from mine...I love studying the various differences between lists within the same archetype. It's quite interesting. I have a few thoughts of how I would start building a Living Death version, but I'd rather let you lead the way.
And thanks for the compliment -- I've been working on my white list for just shy of a year so...it's very much my baby.
I feel that the rise of non-targeting kill spells (to deal with things like emrakul/mongoose/other big shrouded beasts in general) make Sigarda a great option to play around edict effects.
I had put down all of my 'fair magic decks' for a while to continue developing my Doomsday build but I'm back on team Nic Fit until I can decide which deck will better suit the meta in Atlanta:
Here is the list I'm currently running for reference, any help would be appreciated --
Beaters:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Grave Titan
1 Sun Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Eternal Witness
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
Spells/Walkers
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Recurring Nightmare (not 100% sold on the card yet)
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Plains
3 Swamp
4 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
I think first and foremost I need to work on the mana a little bit but the spell suite I really enjoy (at least 4 GSZ, 4 Cabal, 3 IoK, 3 Pulse, 3 Swords)
I'd say the flex spots right now are probably the diabolic intent, recurring nightmare, and 1 piece of removal (probably a pulse) - maybe maybe maybe going down to 1 scavenging ooze and replacing it with something else, probably a geist. I'm also considering removing one of the big boy finishers to add more utility. Theoretically I might cut 1 phatty + 1 ooze for 2 strangleroot geists for a bit of early game action.
One last thing I was considering was a split on Swords and and Innocent bloods just to get around shrouded beasts, but Lili has that role for now.
anyway /end rant /comments welcome
I agree with your cuts, and feel innocent bloods or some non-targeted removal will be helpful--especially if you add geists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chikenbok
I don't think the geists fit that well in this deck. They're resilient, but aren't exactly world beaters. They can quickly and easily get out classed by goyfs and such. I had to play against a few one tournament when I was going against Pod Fit and they did not have enough board prescence to matter mid/late game. Now, against the likes of Planeswalkers they can do some quick damage, but overall I think Nic Fit can afford to put more powerful spells in the deck. Otherwise I do agree with your flex spots.
Ooze feels extremely relevant in this meta, however. He eats spells to counteract Snapcaster, obvious use against dredge, takes down Goyfs (3 goyfs aren't intimidating when they're 1/2's), and can gain life in a pinch.
I do like the rationale of Sigarda counteracting non-targetted removal; that's pretty solid. In my tournaments I've been facing largely blue based decks or combo and once a Pox so I haven't seen sacrifice effects much...but in a black dominated meta I can definitely see how Sigarda would be a clutch play over Thrun.
Here is my current list. Looking at some other lists I think I'm still more of a toolbox GSZ style, so some insight why or if to change that would be appreciated. I haven't taken it to a tournament yet, but seems to run well in testing.
Lands: 22
4x Forest
3x Swamps
3x Plains
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Marsh Flats
1x Bayou
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Phyrexian Tower
1x Dryad Arbor
Creatures: 17
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Qasali Pridgemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
2x Academy Rector
1x Deranged Hermit
1x Sun Titan
1x Grave Titan
Spells: 21
2x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Pernicious Deed
2x Living Death
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Innocent Blood
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
2x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Harmonic Sliver
1x Choke
1x Curse of Death's Hold/Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pernicious Deed
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Duress
1x Gravepact
I previously ran 1 each of Garruk Relentless, Master of the Wild Hunt, Chord of Calling, and Phyrexian Metamorph but found them largely underwhelming. Garruk and Chord were generally used to fetch Rector to fetch Deed, so I figure Living Death cuts around the middleman. I lost my top 8 match against RUG Thresh because I lacked a sweeper (pulled Chord, which would've been Living Death) so it helps there.
It works great with Ooze and Swords and also gives the deck absurd resiliency, having matches against WB Stoneblade where the deck goes through 2 Liliana Ultimates, looking at lethal on the board, then living death sweeps and gives me Grave Titan, Deranged Hermit, Ooze, and other critters to win the game. I haven't done any changes since to try and make the deck abuse Death, but I feel that would make it too susceptible to grave hate.
Liliana has been put in to try and give the deck some additional tools against control while working well with Living Death, but that could be Garruk just as easily since his sac ability plays just as well. It does open up the play of T1 Therapy -> T2 Witness/therapy flashback, Liliana which sounds solid against combo and control. I still don't feel her discard plays that great with the deck, but she does give the deck additional tools.
Sideboard is largely a mess. Grave Pact was meant to come in against Sneak Show but requires a slight star alignment...but I still like it. It is a game breaker against the Nic Fit mirror however. Future changes are to get in Chains of Mesph. (Thanks to rationale on the previous page or so) and more Leylines.
Won a GPT on Saturday, so I'll have 3 byes going in to Atlanta. Didn't do as hot as Jupiter's GPT today (was battling to try to help a friend also get 3 byes...we failed that mission, unfortunately), but the meta was absolutely bizarre (no t1 decks, at all), so it's whatever. I'll submit a general report tomorrow sometime...now I need to figure out what version I want to play at GP:RUG vs Griselbrand. Although I guess the B/R update is between now and then.
Anybody else thinks Rod of Nin has potential in here?
Arianrhod, mind sharing the list you played? My guess is you're still running some Rector build but I'm interested to know the exact list. Last time I tried a Rector build I went 0-4 due to excessive mulliganing (2x each game at least... weird ;))
Sure -- I played the White list located here, with a few sideboard tweaks: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post647603
Someone was originally planning on coming with Sneak/Show, but that person ended up being able to go to SCG MA instead, so he went there. Once I found that out, I took out the Humility from my sideboard, and put the 4th Deed in, instead, since the venue traditionally has a fair showing of dredge and one pretty steady affinity player (who also ended up not showing due to MA). I also cut the Curse of Death's Hold (Elesh Norn's slot in that list) for a 2nd Leyline of Sanctity, because there's a few burn decks and storm decks locally, and sometimes random matchups like Deadguy that they can come in for.
For Sunday, expecting a more RUG/S+S meta, I switched back to Humility and Curse...but as I said, there ended up not being a single copy of either deck. Instead, I got my face tore off my Death and Taxes and Elfdrazi, but since my goal was to try to get my friend byes, I was more indifferent about it. It helped that I traded my Moat up for a better condition version that is also signed by the artist, and I picked up Cards Against Humanity =D
My abbreviated matchups:
Saturday: UWR control (w), Dredge (loss - deck failed me g1 4 turns in a row, g2 I Cranial naming Ichorid with Deed in play, he boarded them out...and had 2x Chain of Vapor in hand. awkward.), Gbw Rector mirror (w*), Burn (ID), top 8 -> UW Blade (w). Me, Burn, ANT, and Imperial Painter split the top 4, with me getting the win as the only person going to Atlanta in the top 8.
*The mirror is a local who liked my deck, and started to build his own version of it. He's had it together for all of like two weeks (he might have said two months, but I think he said weeks). That said, he's a bit behind/is having some availability problems/is trying out some different card choices (ie Sylvan Lib over Top). Top really shined in our matchup, though, so I'm guessing he's going to switch that. That all being said, the mirror is a really weird, weird game of magic. It seems like it comes down to just whoever draws better, but I feel like there's a huge amount of skill involved. Extraction effects are big, and whoever lands Phyrexian Arena will probably win if it sticks around for more than a turn or two...but protecting it is kind of hard without counters, so it's tricky to know when it's safe....and you need to avoid getting blown out by your opponent's bombs while trying to drop yours. Nightmare is also pretty boss in the mirror.
Sunday: Death and Taxes (blerg, loss), High Tide (w), Elfdrazi (loss, got godhanded g3. like turn 3 space monster godhand.), TES (no idea. I scooped him to help out my friend's breakers, which worked, but not enough to get my friend into the cut. shitty.)
If there's any questions or you want me to elaborate anything specifically, by all means, let me know.
I have a few write ups from past tournaments on MTGS, is there a place to post them here? They're a bit long since I write too much, haha. Were with older builds, but could be useful.
^How was Garruk for you during the tournaments? And did you ever use Liliana?
I'd say just post them in here, personally, since they're probably too old for the full tournament report thread.
My thoughts on Garruk Relentless are that he is amazing in exactly the Rector version of the deck, because he's another out for Rector, and his wolfblossom tends to be better since Rector tends to produce less pressure overall. But, I also would assert that to truly take advantage of Garruk Relentless, you need to run 3 of him at minimum (although I think that 4 would clog a lot). That way you can use him as a straight removal spell and not feel guilty about it, as well as having additional copies that you can use for advantage later. Also, flipped Garruk is one of the most powerful things this deck is capable of, as it provides both tutor and sac outlet in one engine, while still being able to build board presence. Big fan of him in the white/rector version -only-. I think that the slots taken up by him are better served with other cards for other versions.
I used 2x Liliana of the Veil a long ass time ago, like November or December. I didn't like them then, and although they're probably actually really good right now vs Sneak/Show, I still don't like them for the deck overall. They force you to fetch double black early, and they are the only card to do so since most versions of the deck have now moved away from Hymn finally. They're also really annoying to use because you rarely want to discard anything yourself. I'm a big fan of her when you're breaking her symmetry, as you're trying to do with Living Death, or as people have done with Punishing Fire, Loam, whatever. But if you can't +1 her whenever you want without causing yourself problems, she seems pretty bad.
Been toying around a lot recently with various builds of the deck and I'm 100% sold on the white splash but uncertain as to which direction to take it. I really enjoy abusing Rector/deed/nightmare/p. arena/etc. but I kind of miss having spots for Plansewalkers Big Boy Garruk Primal Hunter's draw is unbelievable.
I feel like a lot of what this deck does is so explosive that refilling your hand with Garruk after resolving a thrun/sigarda is kind of bonkers.
The list I've been toying around with thus far:
I'll mark what I consider to be a NECESSARY inclusion in the deck with an asterisk
Critters
*2 Scavenging Ooze
*1 Thrun, the Last Troll
*1 Sun Titan
*1 Grave Titan
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
*4 Veteran Explorer
*2 Eternal Witness
*1 Academy Rector
*4 Cabal Therapy
*4 Green Sun's Zenith
*2 Maelstrom Pulse
*3 Inquisition of Kozilek
*3 Pernicious Deed
*1 Recurring Nightmare
*3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Liliana of the Veil
*2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Innocent Blood
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Forest
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Volrath's Stronghold
So I kind of love Lili right now simply because of the edict effect. I find having one of her is kind of nice because after stabalizing I generally find myself with either a. lands in my hand I have no trouble dropping (or things I can recur with Sun Titan) or b. a creature I need dead.
I'm not 100% sold on the split between 3/2 swords/innocent bloods but it seems good so far.
Sigarda has been great as a GSZ target but could theoretically be replaced. The only other spot that I could consider swapping around would be tossing out 1 piece of removal and/or the phyrexian arena for another Lili + Garruk.
Sigh, too many directions to take the deck and I don't know which one is best against a well developed meta.
Couple issues/thoughts for you, Chikenbok:
-) Where is Phyrexian Tower? This card is pretty much crucial across all builds as a 1-of; but Rector builds probably want 2 because it's another way to get rid of Rector that can't be responded to (sacrifice off of it is a cost, as with Therapy). It also gives you access to 5 mana on turn two. I've gone Explorer -> Tower, sac, Therapy, Rector, Therapy into Arena on t2. Needless to say I won that game. That's kind of the nut high, but even like t2 Sigarda, Zenith for Thrun, Thrun + Top....etc. And Rector lists aren't "just" using it for Explorer -- we can continue to abuse it into the lategame. 9 basics is too many IMO -- 8 should be sufficient. I'd trim a basic for a Tower, at least. If you up the number of Rectors, I might put in a 2nd, probably at the expense of one of the fetches, or the Volrath's...which isn't really that good at all without Primeval Titan (even then, is like plan F).
-) One Rector. For a deck like yours that isn't all-in on her (like mine with Moat/Fetters/etc), I'd recommend two Rectors. That way you have one for power (Nightmare/Arena), and one for answers (Deed).
-) Grave Titan. I'm not sure why you have him starred, as I think he's pretty terrible in the deck. Why do you like him, instead of something like Kokusho (which you're running Nightmare already, and ways to find it)?
-) Where's Fierce Empath? You're running 4 Green Suns, with 10 green creatures....4 of which are Explorers. I'd definitely cut one Zenith for Empath -- both of your 6-drops are non-green, so having a way to find them on demand with Zenith would definitely be a good idea. Empath seems kind of janky until you try it -- I guarantee you'll love him.
-) If you want to trim something for a Garruk PH, I think it's going to be 1x Swords. That gives you 4+2 spot removal, along with Liliana's sac and the 3 deeds. That should be plenty.
-) I'd try to find room for the 3rd Top, because IMO it is really important to have and to have early, to filter away discard when we don't need it, removal vs combo, bombs when we need to win, etc. You can also do tricks with it with Arena to dig much deeper (after resolving Arena, spin Top before draw). Considering the shuffles this deck packs, extra Tops are just cantrips, which isn't completely terrible.
-) What's your board look like? I'm slowly realizing that the sideboard for this deck is enormously important...much more than one might think at first glance.
What do you guys think about Terminate in a Red build? Is it worse than Innocent Blood or Diabolic Edict?
Also, is a 1-off Skeletal Scrying still worth it? I thought about cutting the 4th GSZ in my red list for it because I don't play Dryad Arbor anymore.
Terminate seems acceptable, although I'm not sure how good it actually is right now. Perhaps it'd be a good sideboard card.
The Skeletal Scrying seems atrocious right now. Either you don't want to be paying the life (Canadian Thresh), or you won't have the graveyard to support it because the game's over in three or four turns (Sneak/Show). Scrying was awesome in the Stoneblade era, but with that deck having fallen out of favor, we don't really get into many grind fests at the moment.
I actually run 3 Towers because they're so crucial to the deck. It also helps that Towers are a favorite Wasteland target.
Agree on Skeletal Scrying. My main go-to GSZ target lately has been either Ooze or Kitchen Finks (who is sick with Recurring Nightmare and saved me against UR Delver in a tournament) to regain life against RUG and UR Delver...and Burn if I can live long enough.
Thems fightin' words :P. Obviously Kokusho fits Moat Fit, but Grave Titan vs Kokusho comes up a lot in other builds. I prefer Titan because if either one is Plowed or bounced, at the very least you still put two 2/2 tokens on the field, which can be crucial for hunting down Jace or blocking Goose and Goyf until Titan can play again. I do like how Kokusho can get you life in a pinch (since often I'm very low life late in the game), but still he requires a set up. It might be a meta call though, and I can see that nowadays the dragon may be marginally stronger against Show n Tell and RUG Delver (can hamper how much SnT can Griselbrand and block Delvers). On the other hand, Grave Titan just flat out wins games on his own...Quote:
-) Grave Titan. I'm not sure why you have him starred, as I think he's pretty terrible in the deck. Why do you like him, instead of something like Kokusho (which you're running Nightmare already, and ways to find it)?
I'm finding that Master might have more use mainboard (replacing Hermit in my build) these days since he can hunt down Delvers. He also has the obvious death wolf synergy with Garruk and if you get lucky enough you could snipe Emrakuls and Griselbrands. Not likely, but still an out.
Also want to point out the amazingness of Living Death again. Had a few test matches against BUG Control last night and late game, facing down Jace and Creeping Tarpit at 3 life with Arena out was able to resolve Living Death (he had no counters due to my countered creatures) and bring back...27 power of creatures, among them Qasali Pridemage (kill Arena) and Ooze (eat Pridemage). Would've won the game if I hadn't tapped Phyrexian Tower on my attack so I could sac a creature to gain life and survive the Tarpit counter attack (or if I had Kokusho over Titan) but shows that Death has use in the control match ups.
Not surprised Living Death is testing well, although I don't like that it will force the opponent to bring in graveyard hate. Pretty sure the LD version will look a good bit different than most other versions, and probably use some different synergies. I'm guessing you have a transformational of some degree to take out LD when they bring in gy hate, except for matchups where you just want a sweeper?
Kokusho shouldn't get exiled if you're careful with him -- going back to the importance of Phyrexian Tower, again. I have a lot of respect for Grave Titan, but only in GB lists (although I'm testing him in BUG because he kills really quickly). I feel that in GBW, you can do better. I don't like that his zombies homeboys die to Deed, or EE, or practically anything in the format. Having impact on the board after he leaves play if definitely significant, but IMO if a 6-drop is leaving play, you either did it wrong or your opponent sick-ripped like a champ. Him dying shouldn't even enter in the equation, because they should be out of answers at that point. Once you have them stripped of board presence and out of gas, then you drop your 6-drop. At that point, it doesn't really matter whether it's Kokusho or GT, but I think that even ignoring Moat as a factor, Kokusho is still better because he drains on his way out, and he has better synergy with Nightmare. Also of relevance is that Kokosho doesn't have to attack to win. Corner case here, but if you're locked out under an Ensnaring Bridge or a Solitary Confinement (assuming Pulses and Deeds have been used already or extracted somehow), Kokusho/Nightmare can still win the game, while GT just sits there and looks dumb.