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I would go with the challice @ 2 first turn, into the second turn raider, that gives you a strong clock, and you just shut off their tutors, leaving them with ETWs and Tendrils as outs, without tutors tendrils isn't going to kill you, so they would have to have ETW in hand, in order to beat that opening...however, that is a godly opening.
Would Chalice at zero perhaps be a better play if you have a Pyroclasm in your hand to stop Warrens?
No, because if you compare likelihoods, it's much more probable that the TES player is holding at least 1 of 8 tutors as compared to 1 of 2-4 kill conditions.
Usually, with a Chalice at zero in play, TES will not have the mana to go for Igg or the colored mana for Returns. This means that Warrens is their only out. I would say go for the Zero if you have a clasm effect inhand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
I think Ozy's right actually if you don't have the Pyroclasm. After studying it, Chal-2 on a lead would be the best play, assuming you knew your opponent was TES and no other storm combo and you were on the play.
If you have the Pyroclasm somehow (I don't even run it), then it would depend on the rest of your hand.
Not to mention that your opponent could just end up Wishing for Spree and then going off if you drop Chalice at 2
However, everything I'm saying is only true if as Tacosnape said, you knew your opponent was TES and not other storm combo and you were on the play.
Chalice at 1 is bad times for FT/Ichorid, and Chalice at 0 for SI, etc. Scouting is tech.
How could that happen, since chalice at 2 stops wishes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
In general against an unknown opponent, will you just start beating as soon as possible or will you begin with lock pieces?
Last weekend i finished 8th in a local tournament with extremely random metagame with some kids playing T2-decks with only basic lands. No problem with those, though. Lost to geddon-stax and MUC. MUC would have been easier if I'd only prepared for it with my sideboard, which I didn't as it was the first time I even ran into one in tournaments.
More needles and some Defense Grids for the MUC-matchup.
EDIT: chalice for zero isn't always possible, meaning if you have several morph dudes in your hand. It significantly slows down your clock then.
The MUC mu is interesting.
In a local tournament, where I played Kadaj's MUC, I mopped the floor with DS. This was a little surprising, because I knew he was playing DS, and I can assure you I wasn't happy with that pairing.
Surprisingly, the mu was disgustingly one sided: he simply had no chance.
However, when I have played against a different MUC (less propaganda&B2B, more counters etc.) with my DS build (the opponent had akromas, 3spheres, SoF&I and crap like that) MUC has been the one getting the beating.
More threaths, especially Sulfurs, which can put the pressure on, and enable you to resolve other threaths when they are busy dealing with the sulfurs, really seem to make a difference.
Also, don't side 3sphere in against Kadaj's MUC - I just let it resolve (wasn't a threat, as wasn't Sword either) and paid the extra mana for my counterspells. No big deal. DS rarely gets to play 2 spells a turn anyways.
Most spells they have cost the three mana already (Propaganda, Shackles..) and if you cast 3Sphere and the opponent responses with B2B you might have just locked yourself out of the game :(
So my point was: play the beatsticks, leave spheres in the sb. Oh yeah, and never, ever leave home without 4 Needles.
As a MUC and DS player, I can attest to the fact that 1 active Shackles will ruin your day.Quote:
Originally Posted by deviant
Yeah, from my experience the MUC matchup is terrible. You've got to side heavily for it to make it interesting, and unless it's a huge part of your metagame, you're better off just taking the loss.
Yeah. But g1 there are only 2 shackles usually. After sb, three. If you can resolve RPD, shackles doesn't get active in time. MUC also can't afford to miss the first five landdrops. I don't consider it a terrible mu, but my build is for control-meta anyways, so I suppose I'm slightly more prepared for it than the average DS.
But if I'd get to choose, I'd definitely be the MUC-player in this mu.
Resolve an RPD? What planet do you live on?
I'm 7-0 against MUC (and I mean, like, 7 losses). Scroll back one page to read all about my frustration with MUC. To quote one of the more gifted minds that read my report: If you expect to run into MUC, play something else.
He's got a good point. MUC sucks, but kicks you right in the nuts, seven times in a row.
@ Maykol: I seriously don't know. I mean, I played against MUC some months ago, neglected it as an relatively easy mu after some games, and didn't really even think of it until recently. And you're right, it should be a terrible mu. My short "testing" was somehow completely distorted.
Oh. And MUC doesn't suck, it's just a metagame deck. I played it because I expected to face a landstill/ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh/control deck two rounds of three. I was also getting tired of people knowing to mull the hands that lose to Moon against me.
Next time I'll probably play ichorid or something, there was at least two other muc players now. Those mirrors are just plain boring.
Also, we tested DS mirror against the DS player after I slaughtered him. He got an active SoFI but I got a Jitte, pumped it up, chump-blocked and killed his dude with the -1/-1 effect. Jitte is seriously the nuts against creatures. If you get a Jitte in the mirror, try to play a CotV at 2 to protect it. It just wins the game.
Now that I have this deck built, I was wondering if anyone has tried Chandra Nalaar or Rockshard Elemental in the 1 of slot usually occupied by Akroma?
Chandra seems like a great fit at :3::r::r: cuz you can drop her off of a Seething Song. She seems like she would do well at riding the board of little chump blockers that get in your way and she swings the Tarmogoyf battle your way by finishing them off after combat.
Rockshard Elemental is a stretch but he morphs up for :4::r::r: and will do 8 damage if unblocked. He probably isn't better than Akroma here but I think he is worth a try.
Dude, I think that those "hope and pray that I draw a Seething Song" threats aren't worth it. I'd just run that third (or fourth) Sulfur Elemental or Taurian Mauler, 'cause he'll actually do something (more than being a 2/2 that gets countered by chalice at 0). (that's my reasoning against Akroma or Rockshard Elemental)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sacearuse
Chandra is almost worth looking into. Like, she'll kill the first Goyf you run up against (which is wicked annoying), but the second will be like, "hey I have planeswalker now lawlz." Also, she's kind of a mediocre threat who can't finish off your opponent, even uninhibited, for 4 turns. Slogger can do that easily, Raiders has some difficultly doing that, and the little dudes too, but Dragon can certainly do that. I mean, she doesn't die to Wrath (or EE), but I still don't dig her. I want something big and scary, not something that'll do 1 damage.
Chandra's biggest problem is not being Arc-Slogger. And while Chandra's awesome if she hits play, she adds onto that endlessly recurring situation of having Hellbent, 3-4 mana on the board, and complete control of the damage race as long as you don't topdeck an Arc-Slogger. I've lost tons of games that I would have won had I topdecked anything but an Arc-Slogger at a given moment in time. Obviously, Sloggie stays around because he wins way more games than he loses. Way more.
Chandra's not a great midgame topdeck even if you can play her, though. I'd rather have another big threat, usually, because either I need a threat at that point, or I'm in a threat-versus-threat stalemate that another threat would break me out of as effectively as Chandra's removal ability. Chandra's at her best if you can drop her out on turn one and start her 1 damage pings pre-emptively. Which isn't worth it in a deck where half the plays are at their best on turn one.
The main problem I have with Chandra is that she is a much more unstable drop than the others. She requires several turns to get up to her full potential, while if we go and drop a T1 Slogger or Pit Dragon they are pretty close to what they can do, assuming we have a way of outing the rest of our hand for the dragon.
And also, as pointed out, if you get Chandra later on, shes much worse off...as her ability isn't that great when you get to that point. I would much rather topdeck a 4/5 beatstick than something that just pings for a bit.
I actually tested Chandra against a bunch of decks back when she was spoiled. I found that she was hard to cast, was not a threat, and was not even our best option for removal. You are better off running another 3CC threat/RAkroma, but if you really want to clog the 5CC slot, Tahngarth or Tephraderm are better (but both awful) removal options.
Alternatively, you could run an actual removal card in that slot, like Aftershock or Demonfire.
Instead of the 3c threat, what about using Imperial Recruiter to find Magus of the Moon or Simian Spirit Guide ala Imperial Painter?
Recruiter isn't popular for the following reasons....Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
1. it is very expensive market wise (several hundreds for a copy)
2. not a great benefit for the deck as the deck doesn't solely depend on Maguses and Spirit Guides
3. The deck is all about raw mammoth power than just little guys conquering the field with the aid of equipment and artificial control power.
4. not many players sport painters
Has Countryside Crusher ever been tried here? I think he would be ok...
I've tried it, and there are a number of strikes against it;
You can't play it in the place of a three drop, and it's not as good as Arc-Slogger.
- It's prohibitve mana cost makes it hard to cast.
- When you play it, you see no more mana.
- It has no other benefit then being huge.
I would think the color cost of needing rr would be a bit prohibitive to playing him. Also, what would he really replace? The deck is pretty tight as it is.
Or Sanquine can post pretty much just what I said right before I could...
Well, let's get this out of the way:
Thunderblust :2::r::r::r:
Creature-Elemental, Rare
Haste
Thunderblust has trample as long as it has a -1/-1 counter on it.
Persist.
7/2
I would really be excited if he was :4::r: or had morph or something, but his cost is just a bitch. Still, cool ass card.
I think it has a number of advantages over Arc-Slogger.The biggest thing that Arc-Sloger has over Thunderblust is the ability to win though moat and the ability to not be chumped twice to death.
- Arc-Slogger trades with Tarmogoyf while Thunderblust can deal with two in it's lifespan.
- Thunderblust can deal with two large creatures, while Arc-Slogger can deal with several small creatures. Decks with several small creatures aren't too big of a problem.
- In terms of pure speed, Thunderblust is a three turn clock while Arc-Slogger takes four.
- Thunderblust may be a refreance to Thunderbluff but Arc-Slogger has a Jamie Hyneman moustashe.
Meh, Arc Slogger is still better. Being able to take down hordes of weenies, machine gunning for 8 against control, and having a big ass makes me like it more. I love huge asses.
Arc Slogger lives most of the burn played in the format too. I think Thunderblust is to easily dealt with, one Lightning Bolt, Fire (Fire//Ice) and magma jet deal with it at instant speed. Chain Lightning and Rift Bolt destroy is at sorcery speed, allowing it to get in there once. Thunderblust also dies to Pyroclasm and Cave-in, I will test him but don't think he will find a home in my build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
What decks play burn as removal? Red Thresh, Burn, and Goyf Sligh. Three already descent to good match ups. Even if is was burned, you're still left with a permanent Ball Lightning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wallace
It's certainly possible that Arc-Slogger is the main reason that little people decks are an easy match up. I don't think it is, but that's what testing is for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
So, why should we add this to deal with Goyf when we should already be able to beat most decks with Goyf in them? Thresh and Goyf Sligh are really easy MUs so adding the new guy won't help. I really only see Survival as being improved because taking their Goyfs down is big, but SLogger can end the game quick and take down annoying things like Rofellos, chump blockers, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanguine Voyeur
The primary reason we [at least, from my experence] lose favorable match ups is because of Tarmogoyf. A single Tarmogoyf can create a stalemate and two can win it for them. It may help against Survival by racing them before they can do stupid things.
I gotta say, Turn 1 Thunderblust is *even more* sexy than Turn 1 Slogger. And that's something.
I don't really want to put it in Big Slog's place (although I'll probably give it a spin); I'd rather fiddle with the whole deck and see if it can be tweaked to support a higher curve and run both of them. Slogger, untap, Thunderblust, swing with both keeping R open to tap Mishra's Factory. Thunderblust into a Goyf, untap, Slogger, kill the Dark Confidant that should have traded. Just Timmy dreams?
I must admit that even I got a boner from that card.
Having now completely discredited myself, I can say that I don't believe it's very playable. You NEED the song for that, and we have plenty of things we can do with those. (not terribly exciting on turn 5..) Persist is obviously huge, making our gas tanks last a little longer, and haste on turn 1 is evasion, as is trample.
I just think Archie is the better man, he's so much more versatile, but I could see a 3-2 split working in some metagames (which ones?).
Maybe in a super aggressive DS it could work , I dunno.
I'm still hoping for a 2R guy with relevant ability. (and mountainwalk, please?)
You guys should be playing Tauren Mauler. He's the 3cc guy you want. He's always way bigger than Sulfur Elemental except when your opponent doesn't play spells. First turn, he's a lock piece. If yu play him before they get any cards in the yard he'll always b bigger than Tarmogoyf. He answers Goyf wonderfully.
Don't cut Slogger. He's the main reason for your lategame powers. Also, if you get him out against Goblins and they don't have the Weirding you basically win the game, literally, right there.
-Slay
I can't believe we're even having this discussion. There's three red mana in its casting cost. What's the rule about cards that are only castable off Blood Moon? It has a toughness of two. It can be chumped by Grizzly Bears. Persist helps, but come on.
Arc-Slogger is the best creature in this deck; Thunderblust can't even carry his jock strap.
I don't know about you guys, but making an already great matchup like Threshold ridiculous by adding this guy seems unnecesary assuming he even helps. If you want to kill goyfs that badly, run Spitebellows because he's actually castable. Actually, don't. Spitebellows is terrible in Dragon Stompy and Thunderblust is worse.
Sorry, I just can't get past the 2RRR.
I understand why the card was made in that manner, so the DS player doesn't have a lot of different options to go around to abuse large cards. At least it shows that R&D is paying some attention, but still not by a long shot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom
... or this just means that Ball Lightning-like creatures (read : high power, low toughness, haste, trample) are always costed with RRR in them because they're incredibly red-flavored at their core.Quote:
Originally Posted by mercenarybdu
I'm pretty sure Wizards wasn't thinking about our deck at all when they made this card.
Also, why are people saying this is better at dealing with Tarmogoyf than slogger? Slogger can shock 4 times if necessary, and usually only 3 are needed to pop a goyf. Shocking also doesn't require wasting an attack step, and if you do have the fourth shock leftover Slogs can trade with another goyf.
Because it can deal with more then one Tarmogoyf in a game, or more then two if you draw and play two.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zork
Testing has shown Arc-Slogger to be better then Thunderblut against Goblins dispite Wierding resistance, as expected.
So I have my deck list all set, I have 3 or 4 spots open in the board and I need a sweeper. Should I run Pyroclasm, Pyrokinsis, Flamebreak or Cave-In?
How do you have that many slots open? Are you running equipment? Chalice? Three drops?
I've always found deck lists to be tight with little room for extras.