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That's fair. I definitely think it merits testing. Plus it works with exhume to keep the train running if you were to test both. Having both is likely just too watered down though.
I liked the idea of shallow grave but that can be broken up easily when you have something like deathrite vulnerable so I think exhume is correct as well considering you're more likely to have a titan over an eldrazi legend. In reference to an earlier suggestion.
I've been enjoying playing the BuGpost online. I've got a higher win rate than before the top was banned (i almost "can't lose" a game, even against experienced players piloting T1-T2 decks). My tournament season starts in September, and I want to pimp this BUG build to its "optimal" form. So I guess it's best to run these ideas through with all of you distinguished post pilots.
The build is still somewhat open, and I'm tackling two versions (both of which are viable in my modest opinion). One is with FoW MB, and the other is in the board. Recently I completely cut the expedition maps for additional DRS, ponder and crop. I don't know if that's the right choice, but the deck feels more streamlike, and I haven't had any real mana issues, except the self-inflicted ones. The library is a beast, and I upped my number to two as Rock did. I didn't include any copies of the candle in any builds, but I will add it now for spice/character, the deck functions perfectly well without a candle. Possible savvy additions are also Intuition, Jace, dark depths (con: forces my vesuva out and ups my land count to 27.), but I don't think either to be essential for this strategy. Possible cheeky include for a casual FoW MB build with birds is also Nissa. Having DRS, snapcaster and the bird the +0 ability is quite handy. But I wouldn't take Nissa to a tournament.
I prefer the one with FoW in the board since with all the delvers running/flying around you don't need it most of the time. I tried to play the bird in the FoW build MB, but that's just stretching it a bit. It often clogged my hand, more so if you have abrupt to cast as well, but on the contrary, it's great FoW fodder and a decent delver fighter, so it is playable to some extent, especially, if you are running walkers MB.
Snapcaster is an all-star include in my opinion. It's the one card that gives you the edge in so many different situations. Often you can just use it as an ambush viper or EOT Lili/walker killer. Overall it gives you so much redundancy. Often I get away with snapcasting deluge, abrupt, SnT, and most importantly CROP! Not to mention the awesome card advantage/selection it produces through ponder/brainstorm all the while being a CREATURE, which is quite refreshing to have in a post deck.
I haven't touched the mana base (outside the vesuva, basic swamp, dark depth variants). The current configuration provides the colors you need most of the time, just be mindful of what and when you fetch. You can easily screw yourself in a build that runs "4" colors.
I'm still working out some details, and I have a few ends to close up, such as:
- The Vesuva question (i placed it in the board in some of the variants, and removed it in the dark depth build). Currently, I'm at 26 lands and vesuva is sometimes not very handy in this multi colored build, but other times you would just die for a vesuva, and occasionally you do...
- The basic swamp question. Especially, in the expedition map builds, where one could have easily won the game via fetching a basic swamp and deluging or abrupting magus/moon. The build is vulnerable against painter since they can get your shamans and lock you down. I've included the perilous vault / O-stone for this reason. I've moved away from running the basic swamp since often it's way more dead than vesuva, and I haven't faced that many painters.
- The exact number of DRS, decay, deluge to run MB. Abrupt is an excellent addition, but it's often a dead card, so I tend to stick to 2 copies, especially because it's casting cost can admit-ably represent a small issue now and then.
- Replacing FoW in the board with discard spells, though, I think FoW is the way to go, especially because of snapcaster-ponder-brainstorm.
- Playing 61 cards? Tried a few builds with 61 MB and hadn't noticed any problems. The 61st card is usually something spicey like intuition, Jace, vault, etc.
Anyways, to all former UG players still searching for a blue build, I firmly believe that BUG is the way to go if you want to continue playing the ONE color. Though I could be wrong and it's just working for me. :tongue:
Here are a few BUGpost lists (the first one is my primary) that I'm working on, apologies for clogging the forum space with a lot of similar lists, but I wanted to show some variations that I discussed earlier. Any suggestions are very welcome:
Land (26)
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Vesuva
Creature (12)
4x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (10)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
Sorcery (9)
4x Ponder
3x Show and Tell
2x Toxic Deluge
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Artifact (1)
1x Perilous Vault
Sideboard (15)
3x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Hydroblast
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3x Krosan Grip
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
Maybeboard (1)
1x Candelabra of Tawnos
DD ver:
Land (27)
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Dark Depths
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
1x Thespian's Stage
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
Creature (11)
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (11)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
4x Crop Rotation
1x Intuition
Enchantment (2)
2x Sylvan Library
Sorcery (9)
4x Ponder
3x Show and Tell
2x Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15)
3x Flusterstorm
3x Force of Will
1x Hydroblast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Perilous Vault
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Toxic Deluge
FoW main:
Land (25)
1x Bayou
1x Bojuka Bog
4x Cloudpost
1x Eye of Ugin
1x Forest
1x Glacial Chasm
4x Glimmerpost
1x Island
1x Karakas
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
Creature (13)
2x Baleful Strix
3x Deathrite Shaman
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Primeval Titan
2x Snapcaster Mage
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Instant (13)
2x Abrupt Decay
4x Brainstorm
3x Crop Rotation
3x Force of Will
1x Intuition
Enchantment (1)
1x Sylvan Library
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sorcery (8)
3x Ponder
3x Show and Tell
2x Toxic Deluge
Sideboard (15)
3x Flusterstorm
1x Force of Will
1x Hydroblast
3x Krosan Grip
1x Perilous Vault
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Sylvan Library
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Vesuva
Jeff Hoogland posted an article today advocating for Legacy Tron. In it he writes,
The big question I have gotten over and over again since I really started tuning this Legacy Tron decklist is why play this over Cloudpost. The implied idea here is that because Cloudpost is banned in Modern it must be far more powerful than the Tron lands are. While I agree that Cloudpost is far better at generating obnoxious amounts of mana in the late game, I do not think we really need to be playing the largest threats Magic has to offer to go over the top of the rest of Legacy.
We do not need to be casting Emrakul, the Aeons Torn when in most instances simply casting a Wurmcoil Engine or Karn Liberated is going to be winning most games of Legacy. The biggest hurdle for a “go big” deck like Tron or Cloudpost in a format like Legacy is being able to survive the early game - not closing in the late game. I think that because the Tron lands are all coming into play untapped we have the ability to more consistently disrupt our opponent’s early plays by playing Tron lands as opposed to playing Cloudposts which come into play tapped.
All that aside, Tron is actually far [emphasis his] better at producing 7 mana on turn three to cast Karn Liberated than Cloudpost is.
I own and play exactly two M:TG decks: Modern Tron and Legacy Post. Personally, I think he has drawn the wrong conclusions about the strengths and weaknesses of both decks in a Legacy environment. What does The Source think?
LINK: http://www.gatheringmagic.com/jeffho...7-tron-legacy/
I agree with you reasoning. Post can and does have the ability to play early defense if you dont "go all in" as early as possible to get them out. I would suggest reading through mono-u tron forum for modern. Honestly, modern u-tron players have the highest IQ's across all forums I have scoured.....Quote:
Originally Posted by cwcomposer
Tron is far easier to hate with wasteland, Cloudpost defends against wasteland much easier and therefore does have a better longer game
Glimmerpost is important to keep you survive the early game, which any of the Tron-lands cannot do the similar by themselves.
Hoogland is massively overstating how much easier assembling the Tron lands over Post lands is, as well as the power of threats like Wurmcoil and Karn.
It's true that against no disruption, a great first few turns for a tron player could go turn one Tron land #1 -> Map, turn two Tron land #2 -> crack Map, turn three Tron land #3 -> threat. But Post in that same situation (no Wasteland, counters) would be nearly as close to casting something on turn three, with a much better setup for the later turns.
Threats like Wurmcoil Engine and Karn could be game-winners, but often they are not enough. Wurmcoil eats a Swords just like any other creature. Karn is pretty helpless against multiple creatures and is made uesless by a needle effect. The 10+ mana Eldrazi, on the other hand, are guaranteed to give you a big payoff. They are expensive, but their presence in the deck makes a big mana-ramping strategy like 12Post actually feel worth it. IMO, it is well worth it to go up all the way to insurmountable win conditions in Post rather than the answerable threats in lesser ramping decks like Nic Fit.
Tron is indeed more consistent than Post at making *exactly* 7 mana on turn 3. Post might make less on turn 3. But it can also make much more, thanks to the power of Candelabra. I've cast plenty of turn 3 Eldrazi titans, which I'll take over Karn any day. Hell, you can cast Emrakul on turn 3 with 3x Posts and 2x Candles.
Hoogland's also wrong about the impact of having Posts enter tapped (after the first one). Because they power your other untapped Posts, you get immediate benefits. And Candelabra lets us use fresh Posts right away anyway, a good chunk of the time.
Post is also infinitely more resilient than Tron. You don't lose everything if one of your Cloudposts gets Wastelanded, unlike losing a Tron piece. You gain life incidentally, basically Time Walking aggressive decks for free.
When trying to explain 12 Post to non-Legacy players, I usually describe it as "Tron with its big-boy pants on."
I just don't get it.
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Honestly Hoogland appeals to people that don't play legacy. People that don't get why Post was banned in modern, but any one tron land wasn't. His majority of success has come strickly from modern kiki-chord, since tron is a popular deck in modern it is possible for him to move tron players into legacy. I am personally fine with this since it means more legacy players and more potential post pilots once they realize how shaky tron is when wasteland is prevalent. Let's face it, if wasteland was legal in modern Tron wouldn't be a deck and DnT in modern would be a bit more relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Don't read, I made a huge mistake, sorry!
Really excited about the new Planeswalker ruling! Finally there is some kind of "Cavern of Souls for Planeswalkers" in Untaidake, the Cloud Keeper:cool:
https://www.magickartenmarkt.de/img/...oud_keeper.jpg
Reading through Hoogland's responses in the Reddit thread he started, it doesn't seem like he can be convinced by any argument that opposes his own.
Why wouldn't you max out on Ancient Tombs before? :laugh:
Hell yes. Just like Cavern of Souls. Except without the uncounterability. Or the color fixing. Or the coming into play untapped. Or the ability to play multiple copies. I know I'm stoked!Quote:
Originally Posted by Postman
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About Hoogland and his Tron deck:
I agree that a good Cloudpost deck should be better than a Tron deck. However, he has some results with Tron, nothing spectacular, but a positive winrate over ~10 Leagues is something (and i watched most of his Tron videos, he definitely made some missplays that cost him games, the winrate could be higher).
While i think he is wrong to dismiss 12-post decks just because the one he tried was awful, i think it's also wrong if we just dismiss his results. No 12-post deck has put up any results for a while, so either 12-post is generally bad (that's what Hoogland and many other people think), or nobody tried any actually good 12-post decks where it mattered and the decks that were tried are all just built wrong.
I think the current metagame on Magic Online should be decent for good 12-post decks - nothing cute, just a straightforward approach, the metagame is probably better for 12-post than during the Miracles era (then, every fair deck that wasn't Miracles played Wasteland, now Wastelands are probably at an all-time low). Maybe there are some things to take away from his Tron list to find the optimal build in the current metagame. Something that just destroys the midrange decks (for a change i'm not recommending my NicFit-Post-hybrid, while i will stick to it and i like it better in most metagames, the current metagame could be ideal for a traditional build).
Anyway, i think there are a couple of people trying Tron now. I played against it 2x on xmage after he just started and then 2x on Magic Online, all different people (so far i'm 4-0 against it, even though deck is really not built to beat it). There is a chance they will try 12-post if there are actual results with 12-post decks, and i think results are the best way to convince Hoogland at this point. (I 5-0ed a League, but WotC in their infinite wisdom thinks data is bad and doesn't post these results.)
Just a few points here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
- 12 Post is a very difficult deck to pilot correctly. It takes a lot of practice to get good at it. Not only did he not use a good build, his performance expectations were unrealistic without the requisite practice.
- Like you mentioned, with fewer paper tournaments and Wizards reducing the number of decklists published, who knows how it's actually performing in the wild. Also, Wizards doesn't publish 4-1s. I know I've gotten quite a few of those with Post.
The biggest advantage of playing Tron, I suppose, is budget. If you have paper Tron for Modern, you really only need a few cards to upgrade. You don't even really need Bayous (although they are obviously better). It could be a gateway drug.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
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I think decks like 12 post and other "fringe" decks gain advantage by people not being familiar with them enough to have a huge impact on each game. also, due to the deck not putting up good results people are unaware also of the techs and tricks of these decks which makes them better than they actually are. WOTC is helping us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshrac82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
SORRY! And SORRY again! My bad:cry: I want a COV for PW since Ugin appeared, and when I saw this land, my greedy mind added "can't be countered" :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBoozeCube
Leshrac, which list did you 5-0 with?
Also, I noticed the primer hasn't been updated...in awhile. Any chance of someone doing that? There are a couple of different dominant archetypes now (C/g and Titan builds), maybe the work could be split up and then edited by people with feedback?
I would be happy to help writing (or editing someone else's material) on the builds I've tested.Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
A list very similar to the last one i posted, my NicFit/Post-hybrid: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...=1#post1019612Quote:
Originally Posted by nimkee
Compared to my last list i replaced the 2nd Deathrite with another fetchland, the 1x Explosives in the board is a 3rd Toxic Deluge and the 2x Swords to Plowshares are 2x Nissa, Vital Force (meta-reasons, there are much more blue midrange decks than Delver decks currently, and these decks with very good pilots are not as easy to beat for me as for a real 12-post deck).
However, my overall results on Magic Online haven't been nearly as good as the results on xmage, just barely above 50% winrate so far (small samplesize). Compared to xmage, there is a significant drop in winrate against fair blue midrange decks (probably mostly because many of the best legacy players play these decks) and even worse against combo decks (also because of player quality - the Storm players on xmage are just very bad, and at this point i think all my games against Storm on xmage have been worthless for testing. just one example: on xmage, i'm used to winning a decent number of games against Storm with Crop->Bog when they go for Past in Flames. on Magic Online, they always go for Ad Nauseam unless they know i don't have Crop). My results against Delver decks and fair non-blue decks are very similar to xmage. I hope to get better results eventually, and i think i was running really bad for a while, but i guess i have to adjust to the very different player base, objectively i made much more mistakes than my opponents so far.