[Deck] The Rock

You would board out Lily against reanimator..? You do realize Iona on White is a lockout if you do that..?
Lily is weak to exactly one popular reanimator target, which is the double-exile guy.

Reanimator is a fine MU with just DRS + Lily + Plow, but just DRS + plow + KotR? It's alright.. but you have a non trivial chance of getting locked out by a good player barring natural karakas.


Either way, I'd rather let reports show which way is better (or if we all do good, I guess it doesn't matter :P), but I really think cutting her will lead you down a black & taxes or maverick path to make up for it.

Lily's continual CA is exactly what helps us deal with things like TC. Sure, they rip three off the top, we discard 1, edict 1 over a pair of turns, now they're back to card-neutral status, except they spent a card and mana and we didn't. It is slow CA/tempo, but it accumulates and TC (while good) doesn't make slower CA engines bad.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

You would board out Lily against reanimator..? You do realize Iona on White is a lockout if you do that..?
Lily is weak to exactly one popular reanimator target, which is the double-exile guy.

Reanimator is a fine MU with just DRS + Lily + Plow, but just DRS + plow + KotR? It's alright.. but you have a non trivial chance of getting locked out by a good player barring natural karakas.

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Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, DRS, Scooze, discard on your animation spells. The idea is to keep them from getting something into play, not trying to remove that threat if they do. At least that's how I see it...Iona on white is a lockout if they get something into play.... but if that happens, you are likely just dead.

I would board out Lili against Reanimator because I can die turn 2 when they bring out Griz. Maybe turn 3 I drop her and edict (And somehow Lili doesn't get forced). Then what do I do assuming there isn't some other huge jerk in play again the next turn? Tick her up and do half their job for them? Seems awful.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Either way, I'd rather let reports show which way is better (or if we all do good, I guess it doesn't matter :P), but I really think cutting her will lead you down a black & taxes or maverick path to make up for it.

Lily's continual CA is exactly what helps us deal with things like TC. Sure, they rip three off the top, we discard 1, edict 1 over a pair of turns, now they're back to card-neutral status, except they spent a card and mana and we didn't. It is slow CA/tempo, but it accumulates and TC (while good) doesn't make slower CA engines bad.

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Believe me when I say I like your deck, love Deluge, and hope you do very well! I just think we happen to disagree on the best way to deal with these huge threats like Grisebrand or what is essentially Ancestral Recall. I am much more interested in preventing it from happening than dealing with the aftermath. I don't want to be in a position where it's like, discard here, edict here and now we're back to neutral... oh they have another.

I never cut Liliana against Reanimator. Sure, ticking up is bad if you Turn 2/3 Liliana, but she still offers the Edict effect, which is the best type of removal we have against Reanimator. It gets around targeting, it doesn't give them the 7 life that Swords does, and it can hit anything that they have.

Liliana's uptick also does start to do real work when the game goes beyond the first few turns. Once you find a way to jack their yard (DRS, Scooze, Spellbomb, Knight for Bog, etc.), having them discard can start working as well as it does vs. other decks that don't use the yard. You may want to hesitate if all you have is a DRS, and all they have is 1 monster, but I've used Liliana to great effect in many Reanimator matches. The crown jewel was ulting her when my opponent had Animate Dead on Grizzle... needless to say I put those two cards in separate piles, and he was not amused.

TLDR; the edict effect is enough to keep Liliana in vs. Reanimator, IMO. The discard is not entirely off the list, as you will often find time to make good use of it... just don't blindly T2/T3 discard them without a yard hoser.

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Originally Posted by T-101

I never cut Liliana against Reanimator. Sure, ticking up is bad if you Turn 2/3 Liliana, but she still offers the Edict effect, which is the best type of removal we have against Reanimator. It gets around targeting, it doesn't give them the 7 life that Swords does, and it can hit anything that they have.

Liliana's uptick also does start to do real work when the game goes beyond the first few turns. Once you find a way to jack their yard (DRS, Scooze, Spellbomb, Knight for Bog, etc.), having them discard can start working as well as it does vs. other decks that don't use the yard. You may want to hesitate if all you have is a DRS, and all they have is 1 monster, but I've used Liliana to great effect in many Reanimator matches. The crown jewel was ulting her when my opponent had Animate Dead on Grizzle... needless to say I put those two cards in separate piles, and he was not amused.

TLDR; the edict effect is enough to keep Liliana in vs. Reanimator, IMO. The discard is not entirely off the list, as you will often find time to make good use of it... just don't blindly T2/T3 discard them without a yard hoser.

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This is a well written piece of advice. I agree with what you're saying. Especially having Liliana still act as removal at worst.
Do you cut decays? I ask because I believe it depends on the list the opponent has. I won a game 1 where he went "Iona on white" and I decayed his animate dead --> into DRS + Scooze ---> Liliana. Then there are games I'm dumb and pull all decays only to see a pithing needle on SFM/wasteland/equipment.

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Originally Posted by Warden

This is a well written piece of advice. I agree with what you're saying. Especially having Liliana still act as removal at worst.
Do you cut decays? I ask because I believe it depends on the list the opponent has. I won a game 1 where he went "Iona on white" and I decayed his animate dead --> into DRS + Scooze ---> Liliana. Then there are games I'm dumb and pull all decays only to see a pithing needle on SFM/wasteland/equipment.

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You sometimes need to hit Needle, but it is certainly one or your worse cards in the matchup.

-Matt

I'll start by cutting cards that come down later, or have a slower impact. Stoneforge, the equipment, Sylvan Library, Lingering Souls, Thrun or Garruk Relentless (though those last 2 I rarely play anymore) and then I'll move on to Decays if I still need room.

Decays are good; but probably as a 2-3 of. They may needle you (for whatever relevant thing you have, which are a lot) and Animate Dead is run in some versions. I agree with cutting slow stuff; I sometimes side out Thoughtseize so I can't accidentally hit fat, but with only 3 cards to really side in and then debatably thalia or Deluge, I just cut a few slow things and maybe Bob, Top, or other long-term effects.

My point is still that Lily definitely stays in; T-101 elaborates more on the why.


Response inline in red.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Grafdigger's Cage, Nihil Spellbomb, DRS, Scooze, discard on your animation spells. The idea is to keep them from getting something into play, not trying to remove that threat if they do. At least that's how I see it...Iona on white is a lockout if they get something into play.... but if that happens, you are likely just dead.

You should note that they can put something into play T1 a non-trivial percentage of the time. T2 is fantastically easy. Being able to kill the thing before it kills you is good. Things like Equips, utility lands, or other weirdness can come out. It's not like in my deck I have much to side in.

I would board out Lili against Reanimator because I can die turn 2 when they bring out Griz. Maybe turn 3 I drop her and edict (And somehow Lili doesn't get forced). Then what do I do assuming there isn't some other huge jerk in play again the next turn? Tick her up and do half their job for them? Seems awful.

Having 4 Plow X Lily gives you a lot of answers, let alone KotR/Karakas or something. You sometimes don't start with DRS -> IoK -> Beater. Contingency plans for not having god hands are important. DRS that gets active and can't be played around is basically christmas land. What if they simply drop two guys in the grave and exhume? You lose if you can't answer it.

Your post sounds as though you haven't played the MU; so I highly recommend you practice it with and without so you can see a difference.

Believe me when I say I like your deck, love Deluge, and hope you do very well! I just think we happen to disagree on the best way to deal with these huge threats like Grisebrand or what is essentially Ancestral Recall. I am much more interested in preventing it from happening than dealing with the aftermath. I don't want to be in a position where it's like, discard here, edict here and now we're back to neutral... oh they have another.

But you also already edicted something in that situation. The point is that Bob is Treasure Cruise but 2-3 turns ago, the same goes for Lily. There's no reason to play answers to Cruise; just know that it can happen. It's not like Shardless where they can get a recall on T2 or T3. Even if they cantrip cantrip fetch fetch tapout recall; they haven't done *anything for three turns.* In that situation you could've landed bob, drawn a card, landed lily, discarded a card each, had drs picking at them or keeping cruise from firing.

Further, the stuff they draw has to be relevant. If they draw two creatures (which is hugely unlikely) then ok, Lily will get maybe only one of them; but you should be able to handle things like this; shardless has been doing it for a long time now; and at a better tempo.

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I have only played it once, I can't remember what I did with Lili then though. I'll do some practicing and see if it changes my mind. After thinking about it most of the day I will try to get some lilis back into my 75 though, just in case I want them for certain matchups (sneak, miracles).

Tested my last build with panic spirits and no Lilis against SCG edison second-place deck. 7 games, no sideboard. My deck went 6-1, but I think I made a mistake as reanimator once and it should've been 5-2. I have notes if you want. Either way, it felt lopsided. I might suck at Reanimator though.

Regarding Spirit vs. Lili, Spirit was a total house. It makes Careful Study into a pudding cup, let alone what it does to Griz. If they don't get out an early Griz or Norn with counter backup, it is hard to lose with a lot of grave hate, hand hate, dig hate, and STP mainboard.

I may still get a couple lilis into the 75 next time, and she would've been OK as a removal spell, but there were definitely games Reanimator lost holding dudes and reanimation spells but no discard outlet. You can never tick her up unless you Thoughtseize first, IMO. I honestly would rather have Council's Judgement than Lili at the moment because it always hits Progenitus and TNN.

Will have to try sideboard matches to see if it holds up.

IMO, you should still be favored either way, main and post board; just having Plow + DRS + Discard + other live cards is enough to make it decent.

Anyway, I think SotL is probably fine against them; but you're focusing WAY too much on ticking up Lily. I have no idea why you believe you have to play into them until you're in control. Lily is simply removal you can play out beforehand and if the opportunity comes up; sure, make them discard. If not; just sit there and force terrible decisions. It's like SotL in the sense that it's a preventative measure, the difference is that it is also one that can answer something from your topdeck and is good against other decks. (I'm not sold on SotL against others. If D&T can't run it with Vial; why could we without it?)

Are you playing you-against-yourself btw?

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Originally Posted by tescrin

IMO, you should still be favored either way, main and post board; just having Plow + DRS + Discard + other live cards is enough to make it decent.

Anyway, I think SotL is probably fine against them; but you're focusing WAY too much on ticking up Lily. I have no idea why you believe you have to play into them until you're in control. Lily is simply removal you can play out beforehand and if the opportunity comes up; sure, make them discard. If not; just sit there and force terrible decisions. It's like SotL in the sense that it's a preventative measure, the difference is that it is also one that can answer something from your topdeck and is good against other decks. (I'm not sold on SotL against others. If D&T can't run it with Vial; why could we without it?)

Are you playing you-against-yourself btw?

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Yeah. Made some coffee, opened tappedout this morning. To mitigate the effect of perfect info, I always try to make the decision that's worst for me. I know it's not perfect testing but its what I had.

I want to go back to some # of Liliana because she's so good against Sneak & Show. And absent anything better to take out, I would leave one or two in vs. Reanimator as a Seal of Primordium for them. I used to run 3 mainboard, I'm now thinking 1 main 1 side because there should be a pendulum swing in the meta and I might see some other decks come back. Like I said, the other day was all about what I saw in the room.

In the meta at large, though, Spirit is so crushing. Delver decks are playing up to 16 cantrips, up to 12 sorcery speed. Miracles has Jace. Elves has Glimpse and Visionary. Reanimator has Careful Study & Griselbrand. Even Dredge has Breakthrough/Looting to try and dredge with.

I have tried it in a Mom shell, but I'd much prefer protect it with a proactive card like thoughtseize or force tough decisions with it off a DRS. What do you kill in that scenario, the card that blanks 12 in your deck or the one that is a wincon and accelerant? Mom and Vial aren't as good companions of it as they seem. Sure, vialing it vs. Brainstorm is insane, but slower than just jamming it and developing your board while forcing an answer. It's not a gotcha card, it's an answer-me-now-or-nice-blanks card. It's like a Teeg vs. Miracles for everyone. Other than Jund, of course, but we suck vs. that anyway.

Basically, I always have wondered whether Deathrite into Wasteland-Thalia or Deathrite into Wasteland-Spirit was better, and I just think that with so many draw spells out and about right now, Spirit straight up blanks cards while Thalia is just a speed bump, making it a lot more relevant.

As for Lili, while it's still a great card, even if you play her on an empty board against the UR or BUG delver decks, they can discard chaff into Cruise into double Bolt or Decay and it's sayonara. I am pretty sure I was wrong to cut all of them but I haven't missed it. As for TNN/Progenitus, the decks that play those problem creatures always have some chattel to sac to an Edict. Topdeck Lili vs. your Emrakul against S&S happens enough for me to want to keep her around though in some amount.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Even Dredge has Breakthrough/Looting to try and dredge with.

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Isn't Dredge ignoring the effect of Spirit of the Labyrinth? Thus useless vs that matchup.

That being said, i think you are right about both Liliana and SotL. I am definitly going to try Spirit out.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Isn't Dredge ignoring the effect of Spirit of the Labyrinth? Thus useless vs that matchup.

That being said, i think you are right about both Liliana and SotL. I am definitly going to try Spirit out.

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yes, god I'm stupid, sorry. I was just thinking "Careful Study, does anyone play Faithless Looting... Oh yeah!"

Edit: Also, thank you and good luck!

I keep thinking about Spirit of the Labyrinth, but it's hard to pull the trigger and play 3-4. That's a whole lot of sideboard slots, and if I run them main, then I'd have to cut a fatty.

I'm typically on about 16-19 creatures (GSZ and Lingering count as creatures obviously).

There's no way I'm going to run Spirit over DRS, and I would be very hard pressed to run any Spirits before 4 Bobs. That means it's Sprit of the Labyrinth vs. Stoneforge, Goyf, Knight, Green Sun and friends like Qasali and Teeg, and Lingering Souls. Spirit is cool and all... but that's some stiff god damned competition.

Right now, the only one that might seem ok to replace is Lingering Souls, but that card is crucial in shoring up Miracles...

I should point out that his list is not only missing Lily, but also missing souls. Running Spirit + Bob + Souls sounds bad, running Spirit before Bob or Souls also seems sub-par; and I think this is most of my position.

If Spirit was green (for Zenith), or if it didn't interact negatively with Library (that nombo means the deck would have to rely more on Bob for CA) it would be so sweet.

But I feel that right now, and at GP NJ, I just want to punish blue mages who like drawing cards.

It's kind of annoying for me because I know SCGs are like 75% blue, and I would like to test for that, but my locals generally are much less blue so it's tough for me to really gauge how good things like spirit and such are

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

I like Spirit of the Lab, but not in this deck. I think people should definitely try it. 100%. But I think there could be a bit more game with Meddling Mage since you're able to name Show and Tell, which is the real backbreaker on that end of the spectrum, and you still get to name removal or Treasure Cruise at the other.

Another possibility is something we did about 3-4 years ago - you run Red. You can easily run 3 REB in the board if you so chose. I ran a Badlands for a while in 2011 to combat all the SFM/Blade decks so I could run Ancient Grudge, and it was a tank.

I haven't been posting lately since midterms. Will post more when I can.

-Matt

I should be playing in a qualifier for Saito's Heraruya hosted tournament on Monday, but I don't have the card access for your list, sorry Matt

Decided that instead of fighting against all this in hand advantage I'll focus on my on board advantage instead, making sure I have a game winning threat or on board card advantage while removing theirs.
I've nearly settled on this in the end:
22 lands
1 dryad arbor

4 Shaman
2 Gsun
4 Goyf
4 Bob
2 Library
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK

4 TS
4 StP
3 Decay
1 Pulse
3 Lili
61

2 Surgical Extractions
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan safekeeper (can't believe I hadn't played him till so recently, he's amazing, thank you thread)
1 Teeg
2 E Tutor
1 spell bomb
1 needle
1 canonist
1 SoLaS
1 Choke/Spirit of Lab
1 Deed
1 Humility

I want two tutors because I really want to see 1 humility and 1 needle against SneakandShow and similar for other combo matchups
I dropped souls because 3 mana for 2 1/1s seems to be too much these days :/ that being said I do miss having a flier for my equipment, and have considered Skinshifter as a non graveyard dependent 1 of versatile beater. For now I'll try to remove blockers.
Engineered plague hasn't been doing enough for me recently and EE doesn't hit pyromancer and his tokens etc

And thank you Matt for opening my eyes in that Goyf can be sided out XD

For the Goyf and Safekeeper advice - No problem :P

-MAtt