Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheArchitect
Some nic fitters think slaughter games or surgical effects are the key to winning this matchups(naming jace, entreat or FoW usually.). Those cards are terrible, but still vary your wincons so you don't get blown out, and be aware of surgical's interaction with top/miracles.
Using Philips standard 4 ponder setup, I would board like this typically:
-4 CB
-1 Stp
-2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+2 Priest
+2 Clique
+1 Judgment
+1 W/T
Against the BUG decks you want REBS. Against scapeshift you need to treat them a bit more like combo (less removal more counters BEB and counterbalance are ok). Against Pfire, you can treat them more like Jund (GY, EE or moon are all good, maybe keep in some CB but over-rely on them).
EDIT: I should add except for punishing fire version, we are favored. That matchup is even to unfavored. The GBW lists are the easiest. The BUG lists are probably 55/45, scapeshift is closer to 60/40. I don't normally say this, but the legend build, or SFM builds are definitely better positioned. The games go super long and Batterskull or legend + Karakas are very tough for them to beat.
Most BUG nic-fits run Treasure Cruise, one particular version runs Notion Thief. Hence I would never take out Blast if they're on BUG. Keep in mind, you want to float a removal or a hard counter (counterspell/Blast) if possible. In most scenario, they will therapy/thoughtseize first, before they drop their bomb.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zeus-online
I mostly encounter versions featuring liliana(Their best card against miracles imho) and punishing fire, the versions i encounter without these cards are not the ones i am worried about.
I wonder about your take on the entreats: The good nic fit players are difficult to bait, my response is to board in as much removal for deed and liliana as possible, i see your point on counterbalance however...but against punishing fire i tend to keep it in?
I am playing a philips old version with -1 volc, +1 mountain...my sideboard is a mess that i need to clean up.
This is where I feel the urge to lobby for Celestial Purge again. Unlike BEB, it can't get blasted by REB/Pyro. It will hit all the YP when you're not playing against nic-fit; it can still hit Liliana/DRS/Deed and the occasional Dark Confidant/BBE.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BlackStarDeceiver
[snip] ... Watch out for Choke and Notion Thief in the blue versions.
Emphasis mine.
I just want to be sure this isn't an error of some kind, and that enough blue Nic Fit players out there are running Choke in their decks to make it worth playing around.
Normally, when I see blue mana on the other side of the table, Choke is highly unlikely.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zeus-online
One thing i don't understand: Why are you boarding Force of will out?
Ęther vial is such a beating, and force of will is one of the best ways of shutting it down.
On the subject of ęther vial in death and taxes - would you consider boarding containment priest in? It kills vial'ed creatures, it is pretty safe to assume that they will board plows out, and it is a surprise blocker.
Boarding out force makes sense because DnT has a lot of cards of very even powerlevel, moreso than a lot of other decks. In this case trading a 2-for-1 is very detrimental so it makes sense to take out force. Yes, some cards are good, but it's not like "force this or you lose the game" good in most circumstances. The 2-for-1 cost, again, is just too high. Additionally, if they draw their anti-counter stuff (that is vial, sometimes cavern of souls), then your counters just become straight dead. Vial is good of course, but it's not like I think I'm just going to auto-lose to DnT just because they got a vial in play...
Containment priest doesn't quite work how you want against vial. Your opponent simply can choose to not put a creature into play with a vial activation. So, in this sense it stops aether vial, but you'll never actually get anybody to just slam a creature into play from vial with a containment priest in play. It can be a surprise blocker, but there's actually a very small amount of things you can actually kill with it: mother (if lucky), spirit of the labyrinth, non-equppied SFM, Brimaz tokens, Revoker. But, even still, I think it definitely seems worthwhile here and would bring it in.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Something else important I forgot, against any nic fit. Countering their top is a priority. They have like 36-30 lands/ramp cards or dead draws like therapy late game but top does a lot of work for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
zeus-online
I mostly encounter versions featuring liliana(Their best card against miracles imho) and punishing fire, the versions i encounter without these cards are not the ones i am worried about.
I wonder about your take on the entreats: The good nic fit players are difficult to bait, my response is to board in as much removal for deed and liliana as possible, i see your point on counterbalance however...but against punishing fire i tend to keep it in?
I am playing a philips old version with -1 volc, +1 mountain...my sideboard is a mess that i need to clean up.
Yeah the lily+pfire builds are the toughest. You basically have to treat them like a slower more inevitable Jund. You don't need to STP confidants but you might have to deal with a thrun or random 1/1s getting +6/+0 every turn from a Kessig Wolf Run. The big deal though, is that they can answer jace and entreat fairly easily. Batterskull or legend+karakas are still tough though. Also, of the versions they play the most fair, so FoW is less good. The other variants all have a "must counter" card like pod, scapeshift or karn.
I would take out 1-4 FoW. 1-3 Stp. 2 REB. Bring in clique, EE, W/T, Judgment, Counterspell and any thing like SFM/baneslayer, RIP, needle (for deed mostly) or Moon if you run them. Priest might be worth playing here? I have done zero testing with priest in the matchup though.
Possibly more so than in any other matchup, our jaces and entreats are actually super easy for them to answer, but they are still very powerful cards that can steal games so don't cut them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Liking the high level MU analysis going on atm. Just want to chime in and remind you guys primer is still in progress. I'm hoping to get it mostly done either before Christmas or not too long after New Years. Will have more time to work on parts of it once I'm done with school in a little more than a week. With that said, Einjerher, would you mind if I took your Death and Taxes write up and add it to the primer since it never got published??? Also, TheArchitect feel like doing a write up on Nic Fit variants for the MU analysis section in the primer? Not completely necessary since that deck is still fringe but the more comprehensive the primer can be the better.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Valtrix
Boarding out force makes sense because DnT has a lot of cards of very even powerlevel, moreso than a lot of other decks. In this case trading a 2-for-1 is very detrimental so it makes sense to take out force. Yes, some cards are good, but it's not like "force this or you lose the game" good in most circumstances. The 2-for-1 cost, again, is just too high. Additionally, if they draw their anti-counter stuff (that is vial, sometimes cavern of souls), then your counters just become straight dead. Vial is good of course, but it's not like I think I'm just going to auto-lose to DnT just because they got a vial in play...
Containment priest doesn't quite work how you want against vial. Your opponent simply can choose to not put a creature into play with a vial activation. So, in this sense it stops aether vial, but you'll never actually get anybody to just slam a creature into play from vial with a containment priest in play. It can be a surprise blocker, but there's actually a very small amount of things you can actually kill with it: mother (if lucky), spirit of the labyrinth, non-equppied SFM, Brimaz tokens, Revoker. But, even still, I think it definitely seems worthwhile here and would bring it in.
As Einherjer already wrote, FoW is kind of necessary. The analysis of Death and Taxes should be added to the primer, because everything he wrote is 100% correct, not because i'm a fanboy, but because i played the MU a lot of times, and therefore agree with everything.
I wouldn't bring Containment Priest, because in a standard 75 without some extraordinary choices, there are way better cards to have postboard. His impact besides shutting off Vial is very little, it is as you mentioned not good against their creatures and will therefore create akward situations where you are forced to sweep the board, while it is in play. Having some number of FoWs over Priest is just better, because they are more flexible and you have an insurance for Cataclysm.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Adryan
As Einherjer already wrote, FoW is kind of necessary. The analysis of Death and Taxes should be added to the primer, because everything he wrote is 100% correct, not because i'm a fanboy, but because i played the MU a lot of times, and therefore agree with everything.
I wouldn't bring Containment Priest, because in a standard 75 without some extraordinary choices, there are way better cards to have postboard. His impact besides shutting off Vial is very little, it is as you mentioned not good against their creatures and will therefore create akward situations where you are forced to sweep the board, while it is in play. Having some number of FoWs over Priest is just better, because they are more flexible and you have an insurance for Cataclysm.
First of all, in today's meta, who still runs Keranos in their SB? When I play against every deck that can tap lands for red mana, it's almost certain Keranos will run into a Blast on stack. Fine, say you do have it in the SB and you run into DnT, do you actually expect your lands to get pass Port/Waste lock to get to 5? If that happens, you have already in huge favor anyway. Keranos... seems like a bonus at that point.
As to the Priest, here's the thing about DnT. If you're being put onto land lock, Flash creature to block is huge. If you kill a Spirit, you free your Brainstorm/Jace, that's tremendous. If you kill a revoker, you free your SDT, a trade I would do every time. Shutting off Vial is not that insignificant. Every time DnT activate Vial at 2, when it's not a fake, it's guaranteed horrid for us. Serra might be the least damaging. When you shut off Vial, you then enjoy the liberty to use your Disenchant/Tear/Council on other things like revoker (if you need to free your SDT immediately) or an equipment.
My point is that Priest offers another layer of defense. Yes, you might draw into multiple StP and Snap to kill DnT dudes, in that case Priest seems unnecessarily. When you are stuck with clunky Miracle cards in hand or just can't find a StP for whatever reasons, Priest can buy you time, even if you have to get rid of her later.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
versus DxT CPriest is not needed. I board -4Counterbalance -2REB +1 Disenchant +1 Council's Judgement +1 EE +1 Counterspell +2 Vendilion Clique. If I would play it I dont even want it over Vendilion Clique here.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Keranos
It's an old article he submitted before KtK, i mean he stated that he didn't look over it. Reading skills guys are very much needed in a forum. Obviously no one runs Keranos anymore, because he became bad.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).
If RIP had flash and could attack for two wouldn't you play it over RIP? What if it also shut down sneak and show, shut off the scary parts of elves, and shut down all of reanimtor (not just their GY stuff). Wouldn't you DEFINITELY play that?
Basically the only matchup where RIP is really good but priest doesn't do its job better is lands.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I assumed Priest replaced RIP in the Austrian lists to hedge against Vial decks. If people wouldn't even board it in against that deck, I'm thinking the cards going to be another passing fad (e.g. Keranos).
Cards Priest doesn't do a thing:
Cascade cards
Punishing Fire
Loam
Past in Flame
Cards that are turn off:
GSZ
Natural Order
Vial
Lackey, or any dudes that would allow you to put more dudes into play
Show and Tell
Sneak Attack
Ichorid
Fetchland for Dryad Arbor
Cards that are absolutely crushing if Priest resolves:
Reanimate
Exhume
Shallow Grave
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
But it's basically green decks and Vial decks where Priest does anything that RIP doesn't. In those matchups, it seems to be questionable whether or not it's even worth boarding. I wouldn't mind it against Elves, but that matchup doesn't need help. I like it against Vial, and I figured that was the big winner. RIP when it's brought in, completely wrecks matchups and makes the game almost unwinnable for decks. Show and Tell is a deck in existence, but who even plays that anymore? Seems more likely to run into actual graveyard decks where RIP completely locks them out.
I'll probably try the card when it drops in price on MODO. But in the place of a Disenchant or Council's Judgment, not RIP. I've never been comfortable with the D&T matchup and the card sounds good there.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
But it's basically green decks and Vial decks where Priest does anything that RIP doesn't. In those matchups, it seems to be questionable whether or not it's even worth boarding. I wouldn't mind it against Elves, but that matchup doesn't need help. I like it against Vial, and I figured that was the big winner. RIP when it's brought in, completely wrecks matchups and makes the game almost unwinnable for decks. Show and Tell is a deck in existence, but who even plays that anymore? Seems more likely to run into actual graveyard decks where RIP completely locks them out.
I'll probably try the card when it drops in price on MODO. But in the place of a Disenchant or Council's Judgment, not RIP. I've never been comfortable with the D&T matchup and the card sounds good there.
Against Dredge or reanimtor it is much better than RIP. Being an instant in huge. You basically can never cast RIP till turn 3-4 because if it gets dazed or FoW, they just untap and kill you while you are tapped out. Also, being a 2/2 is a big deal. You don't need to draw RIP AND clique to start killing the reanimtor player. Just 1 card instead. Also, it stops the 4 show and tells reanimator runs. People do infact still play sneak and show.
I would not bring it in priest vs D&T or Maverick and these are already good to awesome matchups. Elves I would, but again not a terrible matchup. Also, I don't bring in RIP in against storm normally unless I know they are not running scary creatures in the SB or packing empty so that is not missed.
Loam or Pfire strategies always have a many answers to a RIP so while it helps these matchups its not game over if you resolve RIP.
It basically boils down what do you lose to most: Sneak attack, show and tell and reanimtor or loam and pfire. I run into reanimator or sneak/show in probably 10% of my matchups. I see punishing fires and loams far less often than that.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I play a lot of Dredge and Priest is the softest form of graveyard hate against it. Even softer than Relic or Crypt. I suppose it is better against Reanimator, mostly because it stops Show and Tell.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I play a lot of Dredge and Priest is the softest form of graveyard hate against it. Even softer than Relic or Crypt. I suppose it is better against Reanimator, mostly because it stops Show and Tell.
And can you please explain why it wouldn't be great against dredge?!
Even if you get a creature on the board, you cannot attack, givin that the priest would block and you'd lose the bridges.
It seems kinda good to me.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Said-In-Contest
And can you please explain why it wouldn't be great against dredge?!
Even if you get a creature on the board, you cannot attack, givin that the priest would block and you'd lose the bridges.
It seems kinda good to me.
I think in about 30% of sideboard games with Dredge I end up hardcasting creatures around graveyard hate. Golgari Thug, particularly, you can loop and sacrifice each turn in a lot of circumstances. It seems like Dredge only has limited outs to things, but when you flip your entire deck the possibilities open up, which is what I like about the deck. Containment Priest is basically a bad Grafdigger's Cage that can block, but doesn't turn of sacrifice outlets. So if I'm dredging 6 a turn, you've stalled me out for 2 or 3 turns at most before I start putting 6 or so power on board each turn. Do you block to destroy the Bridges? I suppose you could have drawn enough answers for 3 or 4 Ichorids and Dread Return, or Entreat may be on top of your deck so you're good to go. Dredge's power increases exponentially as turns pass, so trying to win the "slog" games where you grind out all their bridges and exile all their Ichorids is inherently worse than simply buying time to find RIP.
This isn't to say that I think Priest shouldn't be in the deck, just that RIP should be, as well. I think Priest has more in common with Pithing Needle than RIP. Looking forward to trying it once more are in circulation.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I think in about 30% of sideboard games with Dredge I end up hardcasting creatures around graveyard hate. Golgari Thug, particularly, you can loop and sacrifice each turn in a lot of circumstances. It seems like Dredge only has limited outs to things, but when you flip your entire deck the possibilities open up, which is what I like about the deck. Containment Priest is basically a bad Grafdigger's Cage that can block, but doesn't turn of sacrifice outlets. So if I'm dredging 6 a turn, you've stalled me out for 2 or 3 turns at most before I start putting 6 or so power on board each turn. Do you block to destroy the Bridges? I suppose you could have drawn enough answers for 3 or 4 Ichorids and Dread Return, or Entreat may be on top of your deck so you're good to go. Dredge's power increases exponentially as turns pass, so trying to win the "slog" games where you grind out all their bridges and exile all their Ichorids is inherently worse than simply buying time to find RIP.
This isn't to say that I think Priest shouldn't be in the deck, just that RIP should be, as well. I think Priest has more in common with Pithing Needle than RIP. Looking forward to trying it once more are in circulation.
I don't quite understand your comment; how do you even get the Ichorids in play besides casting them, and wouldn't that be pretty much a one-shot deal?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SageShadows
I don't quite understand your comment; how do you even get the Ichorids in play besides casting them, and wouldn't that be pretty much a one-shot deal?
I was saying the Ichorids have to be dealt with if you want to block and exile bridges with Containment Priest. Sorry if the post wasn't clear enough.
I have been forced to use my draw step with dredge before and gotten to 4 lands, though. At that point you can hardcast even Ichorid until you kill yourself with painlands.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I'm 90% certain we win every game that you start trying to cast Spells from your hand. I have played against Dredge more than any other deck, and that is not how you win games of Magic.
