Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Due to the Reserved List, that will not happen. Although, the majority of the complaints I hear from Legacy players about Modern is not about the ABUR duals, it's about not being able to play with Ponder, Dread Return, Stoneforge Mystic, JtMS, etc. Essentially, they dislike the Modern banned list.
But why? They can just play Dread Return in Legacy if they really want to play with it soooo badly. Ponder? In Legacy, there are multiple tempo decks and multiple combo decks that run it as an auto 4-of. Stoneforge Mystic? 3 out of the top 5 Legacy decks run a playset.
If all of these Legacy players want to play with their Legacy staples... just stick to Legacy. If they want to branch out and try something different, give Modern a shot. If they don't like Modern, fine. But stop complaining about not being able to play with Ponder in Modern when you have the ability to do so in Legacy.
But I don't want to spend thousands on my manabase.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
But I don't want to spend thousands on my manabase.
You can't have it all. If you want to play with Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, then you'll need your Flooded Strands and Tundras. Sorry, that's the cost of entry into top tier Legacy. If you're not okay with that, then Modern is there for you, but the cost of entry into that format is accepting that you won't have access to cards like Ponder, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
You can't have it all.
What you actually mean is WotC won't let me have it all because they're incompetent morons who lack any ability to manage any Eternal formats whatsoever?
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Due to the Reserved List, that will not happen.
Oh, it's happening all right.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Dark Ritual
Really expected survival above shit like earthcraft, mind twist, and black vise? Really? Survival isn't getting unbanned in legacy, period. But feel free to keep dreaming as survival being unbanned in legacy is just that, a dream.
It's funny that you can tell how long players have been around by the arguments/cards they discuss in relation to banning and unbanning. People that argue clamp should be legal more than likely never played with it, people that argue twist and vice should been unbanned tend to be greybeards, and people that argue survival should be unbanned tend to have just started playing seriously the last time survival was legal :P
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
So after playing the format for a month, I just got booted out of Modern. Great. Anyone want a worthless Rock deck? I can not even be bothered to strip it for parts, I am just going to sell it whole and move on. Lesson learnt, stick with Legacy.
Sure, I'll give you $5 for your 'worthless' Rock deck. Your comment is rhetorical and just stupid. I actually think Rock is one of the decks previously running DRS to come away from this without being crippled.
It's funny how people beating up Modern are flaying the DRS banning without mentioning that, for the first time, they have banned and unbanned to a net positive for the format. They banned something, but there are now fewer cards on the list. WotC is actively involved in trying to make the format 'better' - not just by limiting it's power level, but also by expanding the pool.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
What you actually mean is WotC won't let me have it all because they're incompetent morons who lack any ability to manage any Eternal formats whatsoever?
Right, cause they regularly punt Legacy (and have done for the last 5 years) and have shown a complete ineptness in Modern since it's inception. Because making Magic better is making you happy.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Goyf has been out for 6 years and it cost 150USD with probably thousands and thousands of copies... FOW coste 100USD and has been out for 18 years... how much would it cost goyf by that time? This is a collectors game... you must pay the cost of demanding cards and dont cry about it...
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Looks like the bitching about prices and reprints thread in here.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Ellomdian
It's funny that you can tell how long players have been around by the arguments/cards they discuss in relation to banning and unbanning. People that argue clamp should be legal more than likely never played with it, people that argue twist and vice should been unbanned tend to be greybeards, and people that argue survival should be unbanned tend to have just started playing seriously the last time survival was legal :P
Greybeard chiming in here. The format is pretty healthy right now. I'm not sure you're totally correct:
1. Clamp is absurd in decks with small creatures. Elves, Affinity, and Gobbos would immediately use it. Other aggro decks would use it for value. It's not over-powered in a world of Show and Tell, in absolute terms, but if you unbanned it then it would immediately be EVERYWHERE. Too oppressive to unban.
2. Black Vise is also absurd. Turn 1, in the worst case scenario, it is a colorless lightning bolt, and it is not uncommon to take 6 or more of the opponent's life if you drop it on turn 1. Most decks will get out from under a Vise quickly with relative ease, but if you're running an aggressive strategy, that initial damage makes it difficult for the opponent to last very long. As with Clamp, it may not really be overpowered relative to cards in the format, but if it's unbanned you will see aggressive decks jamming 4 just because of the potential for a HUGE life swing for almost no investment. It would be EVERYWHERE and so it's too oppressive to unban.
3. Survival of the Fittest seems like a go-either-way kind of card. It's powerful, very powerful, and with the printing of Vengevine it got even bigger. Still, it's essentially a slower and more reliable re-animator strategy that, in my mind, did not have a long enough period of dominance for the format to adjust and find good answers. The argument for banning Survival seems very similar to the one for banning Mystical Tutor. Hard call to make, gotta rely on the people with the actual data on this.
4. Earthcraft seems like a pretty darn safe unban to me. What are we worried about, Squirrel Nest combos? Legacy has better combinations. Earthcraft seems like Land Tax and Scroll Rack; cards that were absurdly powerful in the past, but nowadays would not shake things up much. What is the reasoning for keeping it on the list at all at this point?
5. Mind Twist also seems like a safe unban. It's legal in Vintage and sees no play. It's probably worse than Hymn to Torach. The only reason this is still on the list seems, to me, to be because when it works it's a feel bad. Turn 1 ritual, ritual, 5 point Mind Twist is pretty much game over. That only happens once in a blue moon, though. Are we really worried about a 3 mana Hymn? I'm not.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Black Vise is about the worst top deck ever. Has blank text on the draw versus any mid range or aggressive deck. Is bad Lava Spike without building around it. Burn wouldn't even play it, because it's average output vs Goblin Guide, Bolt, Rift Bolt, Grim Lavamancer is terrible. About the only thing it has going for it is to build a prison deck around it ... most prison decks want chalice on 1 really bad. This costs 1. Prison isn't really anywhere on the map right now outside of maybe DnT which has a heavy mana denial theme. I mean Stasis would have a win condition ... unfortunately they printed Abrupt Decay. One positive for the vise is the current wording doesn't target.
Skullclamp, Memory Jar and Mind's Desire are fucking insane and if you don't understand why I don't have the patience to explain it to you.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
MaximumC
5. Mind Twist also seems like a safe unban. It's legal in Vintage and sees no play. It's probably worse than Hymn to Torach. The only reason this is still on the list seems, to me, to be because when it works it's a feel bad. Turn 1 ritual, ritual, 5 point Mind Twist is pretty much game over. That only happens once in a blue moon, though. Are we really worried about a 3 mana Hymn? I'm not.
Not at all. What people miss about this is you've just used up three cards in order to take out 4. In order to cripple your opponent's hand, you've crippled yours as well. It's true you came out ahead (losing 3 cards instead of 4) but you've still hurt yourself as well as them.
Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Arsenal
Exclusing the Legacy staples like Ooze, Goyf, Abrupt Decay, Bob, Liliana, fetchlands, Thoughtseize, etc, Modern Rock is really cheap to build. Like, you need a couple Dismember, a few $7 shocklands, and some narrow $2 Modern sideboard cards. I don't understand why you'd want to sell off Bobs, Goyfs, Lilis, fetches, Thoughtseizes, Oozes, etc just because you can't play Rock in Modern anymore. It doesn't make any sense from a financial standpoint, nor from a Legacy standpoint.
Because he ...
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Originally Posted by
Dice_Box
...has Elves, Fish, Painter, Dredge, Burn and Goblins built right now. I don't need another deck.
He doesn't need another deck. Also, in the above list I don't see many ABUR duals with "tap: add either B, R or G" nor the appropriate fetches. Instead of purchasing USD 1500 manabase, maybe it is wiser to sell the USD 1500 non-lands.
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Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Not at all. What people miss about this is you've just used up three cards in order to take out 4. In order to cripple your opponent's hand, you've crippled yours as well. It's true you came out ahead (losing 3 cards instead of 4) but you've still hurt yourself as well as them.
Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.
Exactly.
While "Swamp, Drit, Drit, Mind Twist" devastates both hands and "Tomb (18), Mox, Drit, Monolith, Adn -> Monolith, Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, etc. (0)" is pretty risky, something with Mind Twist, Sol lands and artifact mana, (esp. the Grim Monoliths) might work better. But in fact I think it'll be bad.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
feline
Wow, they actually banned Deathrite in Modern, didn't expect that to actually happen. No changes Legacy, as per the usual.
Wizards wants it so the only playable planeswalkers in both formats are sassy black chicks.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Nielsie
I think you miss the point. A deck isn't dead when it is still able to win tournaments. Goblins was more than capable to win tournaments. Like I said it will never be as popular as it used to be because the meta can hate it out very easily. Right now this is happening, but not because of Goblins, but because of TNN. All the hate on TNN is detrimental for a deck as Goblins.
I only gave some results of big SCG events, but Goblins was a winning strategy globaly, it was performing well in Europe and even Japan. In August or September it was a DTB here on The Source. So please enlighten me and explain to me: "TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before."
Let me also iterate that all those decks that only have like a 3% representation on Tournaments are actualy the thing that seperates Legacy from modern. Did you ever go to a modern event? Even a Grand Prix is the same decks round after round. You play against BGx 3 times, 2 Affinity decks, 2 UWr control decks and 2 Splinter Twins. Impressive... The flavor of Legacy is that you are not facing Blade control and Patriot every round. Lately this is deteriorating into exactly that and I blame TNN and somewhat Brainstorm for this.
We seem to have a completely different idea of decks being dead. For me, a deck dropping below a certain % of the average field, is considered dead or we would have to consider Pros Bloom still a deck if you T8 your local 4 rounder.
Don't try to explain me my Euro metagame. Goblins see only fringe play since WotC startet to print single-card powerhouses which make tribal strategies pointless. Goblin took a serious hit from the Miracles-mechanic and SFM->Batterskull and not because of TNN. Loam because of Surgical Extraction/DRS/RIP and not because TNN has Protection from Punishing Fire.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Gobbos largely ignore terminus btw
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Now, what is Game Over is Turn 1 Ritual, Ritual, Ad Nauseam. Which, what do you know, has been legal for years without being a problem.
I see your T1 Ad Nauseam and raise you:
T1 City of Traitors, Mox Diamond discarding land, Metalworker. (now you Ad Nauseam) T2 City of Traitors sacrificing city of Traitors, Tap Metalworker to reveal 2 artifacts, Grim Monolith, Mind Twist for X=9 on turn 2. So much for your Ad Nauseam draw!
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arsenal
It's completely unreasonable to think that an Eternal format that begins with 8th Edition/Mirrodin would be "a lot like Legacy, but cheaper because no ABUR duals". There are so many incredibly powerful and essential cards in Legacy that pre-date 8th Edition/Mirrodin it's not even close. Why anyone would think Modern = no-duals Legacy just because they heard the words "Eternal format" is beyond me.
I agree that there is no need for Modern to be like Legacy. My problem with the format is the manner in which they do bannings. If they did bannings like this in other formats, whatever deck is the "best deck" would have something banned every 3 months. It just doesn't make sense.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
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Originally Posted by
Bed Decks Palyer
Exactly.
While "Swamp, Drit, Drit, Mind Twist" devastates both hands and "Tomb (18), Mox, Drit, Monolith, Adn -> Monolith, Dynamo, Gilded Lotus, etc. (0)" is pretty risky, something with Mind Twist, Sol lands and artifact mana, (esp. the Grim Monoliths) might work better. But in fact I think it'll be bad.
I think if Mind Twist sees play, it'll be in decks like MUD or Elves; that is, decks that can produce a fair amount of mana to fuel Mind Twist but don't rely on card disadvantage (i.e. one-shot rituals) to do it. Of course, they won't be pulling it off turn 1.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MaximumC
2. Black Vise is also absurd. Turn 1, in the worst case scenario, it is a colorless lightning bolt, and it is not uncommon to take 6 or more of the opponent's life if you drop it on turn 1. Most decks will get out from under a Vise quickly with relative ease, but if you're running an aggressive strategy, that initial damage makes it difficult for the opponent to last very long. As with Clamp, it may not really be overpowered relative to cards in the format, but if it's unbanned you will see aggressive decks jamming 4 just because of the potential for a HUGE life swing for almost no investment. It would be EVERYWHERE and so it's too oppressive to unban.
Also a greybeard here. I agree with most of your other assessments, but I think this one is way off. In a format where people can get below 4 cards in the first couple turns, you have to play it early for it to be effective, which means you have to run 4 copies. Thing is, every copy you draw past the first is completely dead in most cases. Most highly aggressive decks in this format can't afford dead draws at all.
Vice might make Stasis viable. It might see play in a Burn variant alongside Shrapnel Blast. Neither of these is likely to significantly impact the metagame. Vice is safe to come off, imo.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
RND are way to triggerhappy. I aggre with the unbans for modern but really banning deathrite without having the other 2s unbanned for 3 months seem wrong. Doubt zoo is gonna come back in full action as an aggro strategi with snapcaster lightning bolt / path to exile in the format. Just gonna be a such up-hill battle.
Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
I think if Mind Twist sees play, it'll be in decks like MUD or Elves; that is, decks that can produce a fair amount of mana to fuel Mind Twist but don't rely on card disadvantage (i.e. one-shot rituals) to do it. Of course, they won't be pulling it off turn 1.
Yep, that's what I thought about. But in Elves you won't be firing Twist before turn4 (maybe turn3 with very powerful initial hand) and by that time it can be pretty irrelevant (unless you think of it as a Big Cabal Therapy to protect Natural Order). In MUD you may play pretty devastating Mind Twist as soon as turn3, maybe even turn2. Is this viable? And is this better than the "DRit, DRit, AdN" scenario?
I'm not ven guessing what cards should go out to make room for Twist because I never played Elves and I sold MUD stuff two years ago.
