[Deck] The Rock

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

I like Spirit of the Lab, but not in this deck. I think people should definitely try it. 100%. But I think there could be a bit more game with Meddling Mage since you're able to name Show and Tell, which is the real backbreaker on that end of the spectrum, and you still get to name removal or Treasure Cruise at the other.

Another possibility is something we did about 3-4 years ago - you run Red. You can easily run 3 REB in the board if you so chose. I ran a Badlands for a while in 2011 to combat all the SFM/Blade decks so I could run Ancient Grudge, and it was a tank.

I haven't been posting lately since midterms. Will post more when I can.

-Matt

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Red also enables PFire/Grove. I like the idea. There has been a Punishing Maverick list in the past. Yesterday i have been trying to build a 4c Rock/KotR list, but i quit. To much cards and too little room.

Currently i am working on a JUNK Nic Fit list that is getting pretty close to what the Rock is doing. Going to run 3 SotL on the board and see how that goes. The only thing for me not running this deck is that i do not like Dark Confidant AND i like playing Nic Fit as a archetype to much.

Also Meddling Mage, Gaddock Teeg and Spirit of the Labyrinth are begging to have a Bant list build around with SFM, TNN, Heirarch and a bunch of disruption/aether vial.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Weird request - Is anyone going to a larger tournament in the next couple of weeks? I was wondering if someone wanted to play my exact 75 to see how it fares. Apparently I really shouldn't play in my own Classic series (well, I have won two of the six so far, but that's just because I metagame like a champ), so someone else will need to push the envelope.

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I will be going to an event on the 25th, it should be a decent turnout, it's for a Lotus. I haven't decided if I want to be Cruising or fighting Cruise, but my feelings, considering that I expect to see a bunch of Miracles, Delvers and Burn (with a side of Sneak and Show) is that Teeg is where I want to be, at least some number in there, which puts me on the anti-Cruise side.

If you get me a list before tomorrow I can test it at our FNM and I can see if I feel I can pilot it reasonably. If I can, I'll probably run it back for the Lotus on the 25th.

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Originally Posted by H

I will be going to an event on the 25th, it should be a decent turnout, it's for a Lotus. I haven't decided if I want to be Cruising or fighting Cruise, but my feelings, considering that I expect to see a bunch of Miracles, Delvers and Burn (with a side of Sneak and Show) is that Teeg is where I want to be, at least some number in there, which puts me on the anti-Cruise side.

If you get me a list before tomorrow I can test it at our FNM and I can see if I feel I can pilot it reasonably. If I can, I'll probably run it back for the Lotus on the 25th.

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3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Feast and Famine

SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

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Originally Posted by H

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

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Not to speak for Matt, but i would guess its a couple things:

1) we just play a high density of Teeg, most miracles lists are shaving STP anyway. Matt talks about just playing more Teeg on the most recent EE cast.

2) we have so many must-answer threats -- they can't afford to let a Bob or DRS get loose, equipment + Souls is a beating against them and Liliana is a waking nightmare. they can't depend on Countertop because Abrupt Decay so we can take away their advantage engine. Basically our game 1 is good enough anyway, they may never get a third game.

3) SoF&F is good enough against them, making them discard and letting us cast multiple spells in a turn is so bad for them. Plus F&F shreds BUG decks and Batterskull.

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Originally Posted by H

That's right on the lines of what I was thinking. One question though, why the swap from Sword of Light and Shadow to Feast or Famine? I was thinking that LaS on a Teeg is just unbeatable for Miracles, plus the lifegain might be relvent versus Burn (but probably still too slow).

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Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

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Excellent point, I knew there was something I was obviously missing, but I just couldn't remember what it was, thanks.

I will take the list for a spin tomorrow and see what I can do with it.

I still think I'd rather have SoFaI versus miracles. It doesn't provide protection, but it's a fast clock and it draws more gas against them.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Well, they can still hit him with Council's Judgement.

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Or karakas

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Or karakas

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Alright, alright, you guys are just proving that I'm dumb, haha. I am just going to pretend that it's because I was up at 3:30 this morning for work. :cool:

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

I can't imagine the match up being necessarily bad though. Just play multiple choke in the board.

Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

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Oh, I know, I have played against Miracles many times and I recognize that the relevent life totals are essentially 1 and 0. At one they can't pitch cast Force or crack a fetchland and at zero you win.

I mean, Pro White and getting back a dude seems better than Pro Green and having them discard a card, but Matt is no doubt a better player than me, so I might have to deffer to his judgement.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

I can't imagine the match up being necessarily bad though. Just play multiple choke in the board.

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I think I'll start using one instead of Loam now that Shardless should be swapping to Delver Cruise variants. I'm not big on it though since it's timing dependent and only relevant in a few MUs (despite all of the blue in the format.)

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

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This is precisely what I'm getting at. Every time I think "I got good miracles tech this time!" I'll draw a couple of lands at the wrong time, fail to find Souls, or a variety of other mishaps and Boom. You lose. Typically in one turn. I've lost to RiP+Helm because I didn't answer RiP immediately, I've lost to Entreat for 4-5 after having them "beaten" so to speak; I've lost to entreat for 3 while jamming the board full of tokens.

The MU is awful in my experience; since they oppose the axis we drive on, and we don't have counters or Stifle.


I've actually been really wanting to try Silence to turn off miracles. (trigger->Silence => no miracle for you!) giving us a psuedo-stifle; it's fine for Storm and elf-chains too; I just haven't been brave enough to try it. Cutting off "Storm 7" would be amazing though. There's got to be a reason it's bad.. maybe I need to experiment and find it for myself..

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Originally Posted by tescrin

Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

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I very much disagree. I think we are even to slightly favored pre-board and much better postboard. They are not a combo deck, they are a control deck that depends heavily on the SDT engine (either with Counterbalance to counter spells for free or with the miracle mechanic to boardwipe or win). Think of them more like a Loam deck in that sense. It may seem like they win in 1-2 turns when they Entreat for 4 vs. your empty hand and board but you lost a long time ago.

They are reactive, we are proactive. But they can't react to Abrupt Decay, and it takes multiple cards for them to react to Lingering Souls. They also can't allow us to keep a Deathrite or Bob going and get ahead of their engine. They play dead cards like red blasts, 2 for 1 themselves with Force and spend a lot of time digging and setting up and never pressure our life total (very relevant if you get a Sylvan out). Just don't play into a Terminus, Wasteland them when you can, and be smart about Thoughtseize and you should be fine.

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

Its never wise to count miracles out even with teeg on board with shroud and a meddling mage on councils judgement they can still get through reasonably eiffeciently with only a plow and a judgement which is likely post board to be up to two copies. Its a rough matchup anyway you slice it no matter what you are piloting its hands down the best deck in the format with a competent pilot not even an excellent one.

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They can also play top into CB into blind flip counter our next play but that is exceedingly unlikely. They can also STP deathrite into counterspell Stoneforge into Clique souls into windmill Jace but that is also unlikely. The scenario you're talking about costs 4 mana, 3 white, which means that they either are way off blue, or you haven't drawn Wasteland, or they are doing it over two turns giving you time to react.

Believe me, I've been dreamcrushed by Miracles a lot playing Deadguy and Dega and the difference in just adding Abrupt Decay is huge. If they can't counter our spells for free it is very hard for them to keep up.

I will say that a player who is very experienced with Jace can really crush you with that. It's the most important card in the matchup because it can singlehandedly take over and kill you over the course of turns as opposed to oops I angeled.

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Originally Posted by maharis

I very much disagree. I think we are even to slightly favored pre-board and much better postboard. They are not a combo deck, they are a control deck

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I'm not being foolish; but what I mean is that they sometimes just win; and it's not uncommon. I've had a game where I was testing Kjeldoran Outpost (I know.) I was filling the board with tokens, beating for 3-4 a turn. They instant-speed angel'd at like 6 mana and I just lost. The reason is because they don't have to do much at that point; they just did 12, and if you don't answer all of their flyers in 1 turn, you probably died.

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Originally Posted by maharis

the difference in just adding Abrupt Decay is huge. If they can't counter our spells for free it is very hard for them to keep up.

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I'm something like 1-6 with miracles on Junk (in various forms); with 4 bob, 4 Lily, 4 Decay; sometimes I had EEs, sometimes I had weird sideboard cards; etc.. the difference between winning and losing is basically whether or not I find top or if I draw enough gas.

4 Decays in the deck barely does anything from my perspective. Everytime I decay a CB it's back within a turn or two. There are multiple games where i've decay'd 3 of them and of course it's a guy who has 4. The MU is abysmal from my perspective.

I leave fetches open for Jace, I prioritize Bob and keeping an appropriate number board:hand threats ratio. The top-decking and jace locking is too powerful if you miss even a pair of draws (I.E. by drawing a couple of lands when you have too many.)

If your clock is slow you die.
If your deck missteps you die.
If you +1 Lily at the wrong time, you die.
If they oops-angel you die.

The MU sucks. Please don't tell me that Decay (when I have always run 4) or Lily just wins. They don't.

As a child of the 90s, I would never tell anyone not to play Kjeldoran Outpost. And I get what you mean, but I would never think of them as a combo deck. If anything their combo finish makes more cards live against them because good anti-control cards like Pithing Needle and Abrupt Decay can supplement hatebears.

I haven't played against them with Top in my deck since I switched to junk so that might change things if I decide to keep it in going forward. But yeah, needling top postboard is one of those things that gives you an advantage that they can't easily overcome. If they find their one of Wear/Tear or use Judgement on it, you just play another threat. Getting flooded can kill you, I agree, since they have superior selection. But even then, we have such a density of threats that attack them from different angles that it should be really hard for them.

On Dega, I once t1 thoughtseized, then Surgicalled his Counterbalances. I still lost because without Teeg he was free to Supreme Verdict me and Terminus me until he found Entreat. And I didn't want to needle Top because I had it in my deck. Miracles was the reason I abandoned Dega, even REB did nothing because it's impossible to win a counterwar against them (and REB can't beat Countertop if it resolves.) In hindsight, I should've played Bitterblossom in the board (I crushed two Miracles players in one night with that thing playing monoblack) but Miracles is so popular (or was, I wonder how it will do post TC) I just think it's better to pick a deck with a favorable matchup against it, which I really believe this deck is.

Looking at your last list, I see you don't have any Stoneforge/equips, Krosan Grip, Needle effects, Sylvan Library, or Dryad Arbor (a huge persistent threat against them, since you can fetch it off the bottom of your deck post terminus or play it as an uncounterable creature that can carry a sword). I suggest trying some of those cards because it's like night and day. (And I really like your KOTR approach, but I can see why it would be soft to Miracles).

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Originally Posted by tescrin

I still like SoLaS better since it combats Lily, insta-gibbs D&T and almost the Mirror (removal is a B) and blocks most of the Miracles removal. Their 1-of sometimes Karakas is not worth talking about; you were going to waste it 100% guaranteed anyway. If they run more than 1-2 councils judgement they won't be at the top tables, so I wouldn't worry about them finding a 1-of when you have 3.

SoLaS is fine for protecting teeg; though I should mention that it shouldn't work very often since they can plow in response to the equip and will likely be looking for plows the second you have a teeg or a SoLaS anyway.


Also, the MU isn't good. Don't let the above talk make it sound good. They are a combo deck at heart and they win in 1-2 turns usually. Even if you beat them down to 3 health, they can just win. It's wise to not think Lily = game win or that Souls = game win.

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SoFF is better against the BUG decks, still deals with Batterskull and opposing Goyfs, and you get to untap and dump your hand. Pseudo-Dryad Arbor vigilance is tech.

Against DnT, you want Jitte ASAP. Against Miracles, SoLaS is very good, I agree, but SoFF is still pretty good anyway. To say the matchup is bad is an overstatement, the matchup is okay as long as you don't draw dead.

-Matt

Played my somewhat bad list tonight. It was horrible. Despite smiters, decays, thalias, and spirits, I got smashed by the treasure cruise decks. It was absolutely ridiculous. My first time playing since they released. Totally wouldn't be surprised if it got banned