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Courser actually shines in the lategame. It gets rid of topdecked lands and repurposes fetchlands into shuffle effect to get rid of other unwanted cards on the top. It has helped me win quite a number of games whenever I topdecked it (or on occasion GSZ'd for it). Knowing not to crack a fetch b/c there's something important on the top of your library can really make the difference in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nargoron
Sylvan indeed is still great. I'd definitely recommend playing at least one in the 75. Maybe if you run a large number of Oaths, the Sylvan should be in the board, but 2x Oath + 1x Sylvan seems like a fair place to start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nargoron
My test list runs 4x Oath main and 1x Sylvan on side, but it's still in the trial phase. :wink:
For the Planeswalkers: Liliana will help against combo as well. She kills Show&tell and Reanimator guys really nicely and she discards Storm cards as well, so she has merits against more decks than just control. Courser was an excellent suggestion. Lily plus Courser should help you play good cards from the top of your deck. Add one Sylvan from the board and we should be good against control.
But the first Walker I mentioned was Kiora, Master of the Depths. She is highly underplayed. Kiora with Knight of the Reliquary means we get to abuse Maze of Ith like a maniac. We attack with Knight, untap with Maze at the end of combat step. We use Knight to fetch up a Wasteland, then use Kiora to untap Knight and Maze, use Knight again to fetch up a 2nd Wasteland, Waste two lands and have Maze up for defense. Next turn we use Kiora to draw two cards, since 80+% of what we play is creature or land anyway.
How does that sound? :cool:
For those that are playing oath, have you altered your sideboard to take it into account? Like playing more creature based hate that actually gets found off of it
I always play quite a number of dudes in the board anyway, but we play so many guys that even when going down a few we should still profit from Oath of Nissa.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
Any thoughts on Nissa, voice of zendikar + oran rief? and then add gaea's cradle to the mix for a lot of mana?
Not really, but I'm on an E.Tutor build. My current side is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
3 E. Tutor
1 Chalice
1 Cage
1 EE
1 EPlague
1 Rest in Peace
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Warmth
2 Canonist
2 Containment Priest
1 Toxic Deluge
I want to get some opinions on my list. It has been doing well for me although I don't seeuch combo in my meta so I don't worry about those decks too much. It is a greedy list, but I would rather be greedy and effective than have lots of dead cards against random matchups. The list is as follows:
Lands:
2 wasteland
1 karakas
1 maze of ith
1 horizon canopy
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp
2 bayou
3 scrub land
4 savannah
1 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
4 windswept heath
Creatures
1 dryad arbor
1 scavenging ooze
1 qasali pridemage
1 batterskull
2 dark confidant
4 deathrite shaman
4 mother of runes
4 kotr
4 stoneforge mystic
Spells
2 jitte
3 thought seize
3 abrupt decay
4 gsz
4 swords
Sideboard
1 bojuka bog
1 thrun
1 sword of fire and ice
1 sword of feast and famine
1 sylvan library
2 pernicious deed
4 lingering souls
4 Thalia
What yall think about this variant? I understand it's not straight up traditional but I feel like it can deal with a lot of different matchups and most of all it has great synergy.
I think you should run it a bit. I think you're missing the point of the deck and should probably move this to The Rock forum. Thalia + Wasteland + KotR is basically the point of the deck. Lacking Gaddock Teeg is a huge mistake IMO. Bog is bad except in Crop Rotation decks. Second Jitte is very pointless. 4 Equipments feels meh, 5 for sure seems bad. 4 Lingering Souls seems a bit much. Deed is slow and meh for most matches unless you adjust your deck to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew
I never run all equipment at one time so would never be more than 3 in the deck. Bog is there as a solid out against reanimator decks that I do face. I agree souls could be cut down. I got Teague and he could def see the side board, I just don't face much combo but he is a great hate bear for that. I run 2 jitte cause that is honestly what I reach for first over batterskull and it get blown up often, so I want the second copy, if I don't see the artifact destruction in game 1 it gets out to board and keep 1 copy. How would you suggest I adjust more to deed? I like plenty of the lingering souls to help reset after popping a deed and when in they are usually in together. Overall do you think it has a chance at success? Thanks for the reply!
Bog: Trust me when I say that Bog is too slow (sorcery speed) and too ineffectual most of the time. It can be instant speed with KotR, but that's minimum Turn 3; which is rare. And the first thing you'll be trying to set up is Karakas, which may or may not work depending on the build they're on. If you get karakas T3 and pop their guy and they either Inkwell, Ashen Rider, or Archtype you; your Bog is not only too late, but basically not going to do anything. As a guy who religiously ran it with KotR, it's decent; but it's not good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew
Deed: I'd swap Deeds for Toxic Deluge, Engineered Plague, and or Zealous Persecution. You usually want 3 or so sweepers, and IMO a variety. Engineered Explosives isn't bad either. I get you're looking for the "why", and it's because you have a high number of permanents, making getting value off of deed dubious.
Jitte#2: I get why it's there, but planning for the game to hit your second equipment doesn't make a lot of sense IMO. If it gets blown up, SoFaI will still do the job and if it doesn't then the second is dead. SoFaI is a lot better than it looks in a lot of situations (TNN, Thopter Combo, Young-Pyro tokens, Jace, Shardless, etc.)
SoFaF/Batterskull: sdematt would probably be happy with this, but IMO, just stick to 3 equips and choose which, rather than having 5 and trying to alter your deck.
Teeg: He's 5 copies of a Hatebear for a single card of deck space. I think you can fit him. It's roughly half of the point to running GSZ at all; because it multiplies your chances of successfully finding it in the right MU by 5x or so. Truly a must-have for any GSZ deck. Elves only doesn't use it because of NO and the fact it blocks GSZs (and the fact that they can just race other combo decks.) Even in the side, you should at least remove a thalia and put him in, then worry about finding room for the 4th thalia; but honestly not running him in the main seems insane for the value. \\
Lingering Souls: I think 3 copies is fine. You'll have a mediocre Miracles matchup either way. Without Thalia in the main, I don't see why they're even in the sideboard to be honest. With her in the main, I could see you swapping to Bitterblossom; but that's a personal preference and you probably won't have your thalias mained anyway.
Lands: You have 25 land cards; you should shave 3-5 IMO. You could do:
-1 Maze
-2 Savannah
-1 Scrubland
for +3-4 Oath of Nissa and you'd have roughly the same consistency. Maze is pretty Meh (but it's cool) and Oaths increase consistency so you don't draw dead too often. Consider it IMO. How would you shave #5? Noble Hierarch, but at $30+, I'll leave it be as I anticipate you're on a budget.
Gravehate: Please just add a couple of Grafdigger's cages. I know you don't want dead cards in the side, but they are very very very good and you'll need them at some point. Get used to running grave hate in the side and don't skimp. The worst feeling in the world is knowing you could be running 1-mana colorless cards that give you free wins. As soon as a budget dredge player starts ruining your day or you are too slow against reanimator you'll be sad you didn't have them. Same for Storm, Elves, and similar.
I hear you on the grave hate and the potential slowness of bog, that is something I will have to look at for sure. I have the hierarchs already so no worries, but what gives you the opinion of a budget build? I got my goblins for cheap thrills lol. Thalia is in the sideboard cause I rather speed my clock than slow others down, but if there is a lot of miracles around it is important to main deck. The equipment changes make sense so likely sub fire and ice for second jitte and drop the others? How would you propose fitting Thalia main? I tried to have enough disruption and removal with ts, abrupt decay and swords. I agree deed may hit me too hard as well the other cards mentioned probably will offer better value and I should test them. Once again thanks for the feedback especially cause I know this is not the common maverick list, but I did base it on what I have read here and then adjusted to my own tastes. My roots as a goblin player probably show in my taste for greater agression over control with Thalia boarded.
I'm new to the archetype and just trying to understand some stuff that was unclear in the primer.
Obviously, the deck is situated to be the best fair creature deck in the format. However, it is heavily unfavored against all combo. Do we just give up those game 1s every time? I've played similar decks with lots of discard and had some combo trouble. This archetype, with such little or zero discard, must be SCREWED against combo. I know about Thalia, Teeg, Wasteland, Karakas, etc. But I don't see how that can keep up. Am I missing something?
1) I don't know if this deck is the best fair creature deck in the format. I think that title belongs to Shardless BUG or Death and Taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
2) It is unfavored vs Miracles, but not unwinnable. Also, the combo matchups are not that bad. Oops all Spells and Belcher are pretty bad, but postboard you bring in discard and specific hate. Elves and Miracles are the main decks that destroy us, and any deck that has a -1/-1 effect can possibly blow us out.
I think that the deck is actually pretty decent against Non turn 1 fragile combo. It fights on an axis that decks like ANT and Show and Derp aren't prepared to defend against. A resolved green Sun for 2 in a game one against ANT to fetch Teeg is GG. 4x Thalia plus wasteland to slow them down, scooze if you run it main to eat PiF and cabal ritual help. Plus out of the board if you are splashing black you can get discard, you get canonist and such, all sorts of random permanent based hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
The match you're truly giving up is Elves. It is so one-sided it's almost laughable. You might as well concede and go get lunch unless your opponent can't do Craterhoof math.
Teeg does alright here, forcing natural Hoof or Glimpse-Chain into Elf Beats; which aren't bad but are beatable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cambriel
Depends on the Maverick deck too. If it's a depths version I think you can get Depths online T3 with a strong draw; which is enough to block their huge Hoof and probably leave you alive at low HP, swinging for lethal over the top.
T1 - Mana-dude
T2 - KotR
T3 - Play Depths or Stage, Float a mana, Fetch Depths or Stage with KotR, use the floating mana + other land or mana-dude to crack it. You also still have a mana open for Plow.
While I'm not big on the Depths plan, if there's an argument for it I'd imagine it's those pesky combo matches.
Thanks for the input everyone! One more question:
How has the Stoneforge package been working for you guys? I've been playing it in other decks and it's been kinda weak these days in everything but Stoneblade, which has countermagic, discard, and Lingering Souls to maximize its effectiveness. In your opinions, in what matchups is it strongest/most useful for us? Weakest? What made you pick certain equipment?
Personally I've been off of SFM for a month or three (in Junk, Jund, or other colors) and been happy about it. That said, it's pretty core to Maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
IMO, for now:
* Jitte -> always an autoinclude. Forces an instant win many times. Great in maverick due to almost always having extra mana dorks.
* SoFaI -> This is usually in for people because it's up to +2 CA every swing and the protections get you passed TNN and Young Pyro. Swings passed most of Shardless as well.
* Batterskull -> I think some would contest this; but I think between Thalia and Mom it's alright. It's mostly there to fetch so you can lead with Stoneforge and force them to remove SFM that way your later threats have less removal to get through, and you get to keep BSK as a bonus.
The deck has issues right now I think as most of the top decks are mediocre MUs. Shardless is alright, Lands is ok, D&T is fine, but Miracles and ANT are quite good against you and Lands can easily take you out on average I think. If you maindeck a singleton Scavenging Ooze and prepare your side with some discard, sweepers, and gravehate, you can do fine I imagine.
Well, Maverick is my pet deck for a long time now. I love it as, in contrast to established decks like ANT or Temur Delver you can vary the choice of cards according to your play style and preferences. Green Sun's Zenith gives you a nice tool box and from Scryb Ranger over Gaddock Teeg and Ooze to Thrun or Sigarda you can play powerful green tool box creatures. That way the games never get boring and you can fight all decks.Quote:
I'm new to the archetype and just trying to understand some stuff that was unclear in the primer.
Obviously, the deck is situated to be the best fair creature deck in the format. However, it is heavily unfavored against all combo. Do we just give up those game 1s every time? I've played similar decks with lots of discard and had some combo trouble. This archetype, with such little or zero discard, must be SCREWED against combo. I know about Thalia, Teeg, Wasteland, Karakas, etc. But I don't see how that can keep up. Am I missing something?
The irony is, that Maverick, although not playing counterspells, has a rather good combo MU. Well, of course not against durdly T1 combo decks, but hey, a blue mage without FoW in hand also loses to that. Nowadays you won't face decks like Oops All Spells or Tin Fins that often. Most combo decks are ANT which, most of the time, give you the chance to land a Thalia or cast a GSZ for x=2 to fetch Gaddock Teeg. Both scenarios are pretty GG. After sideboarding most Maverick players have access to up to 4 Thoughtseize, 1-2 Ethersworn Canonist, a 2nd Gaddock Teeg and, in case of reanimator combo, Containment Priests. The Reanimator decks also struggle pretty hard with the 4 MD Deathrites, 1-2 Oozes, Karakas and Swords.
Against other "fair" decks we stand pretty strong thanks to Mother of Runes and Knights. BUG and Miracles are not that easy as they can cast Terminus or Toxic Deluge which wipes our board despite of Mother of Runes. Yet, one can prepare for those MUs with a strong SB plan. A resolved Choke pretty much locks Miracles, Pithing Needle has some nice all round applications and Wilt-Leaf Lieges can grow your dudes against BUG and the new Eldrazi decks.
In my eyes, Elves is the worst MU. But also there one can put cards like Zealous Persecution, Canonist, Needle, Gaddock Teeg, ... into the SB.
All in all I think that Maverick is still a viable choice for a Legacy tournament. I don't know why it is such underrepresented as I always tend to have a good finish in tounaments. Nevertheless I like it when decks are not on the radar of people. I think that most prefer to play DnT or Loam decks. In my eyes Maverick is like a symbiosis of both.
Well, I used to play the DD combo and I think in average it takes too much time for getting it online against combo decks. In the Miracles meta it isn't that strong, either, as lots of Karakas and Swords are played. I think in general the two lands are more disturbing and one has a tighter play with just a Cradle in that spot to get crazy with equipment and Oozes.Quote:
Depends on the Maverick deck too. If it's a depths version I think you can get Depths online T3 with a strong draw; which is enough to block their huge Hoof and probably leave you alive at low HP, swinging for lethal over the top.
I just took my maverick to my first FNM and I feel so drained... I went in time 3 out of 4 rounds!
I'll need to learn to play faster. I'm used to playing combo decks.
I won two rounds (DnT and Bant CoCo) and lost two (punishing loam and punishing jund).
What is the best option to beat pfire decks? I felt I was on the defensive the whole time and I didn't like it.
The only thing that kept me alive was the equipments and when they got rid of them I got crushed.
Edit: I was thinking of going bigger and hexproof, maybe Sigarda or Thrun? I currently have nothing to GSZ that's bigger than KoTr.