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I like it. Poops on grixis and shardless, and gives an edge against miracles game 1. It always finds a target in every matchup.Quote:
How good has been MD Warping Wail for you? I wonder if it's better than Eldrazi Displacer in that slot, given the number of colorless sources you have.
Good evening everyone,
I have been playing a bunch (though not as much as I'd like) to test the new White Eldrazi/Thalia Stompy list I have. As it is neither Eldrazi nor DnT, I figured I'd post it here and see what y'all think. I've had 1 bad league (I do most of my testing on MODO) where I was on the draw 5 matches in a row with horrendous draws and 2-3'ed, but otherwise I have had numerous 4-1s and 5-0'ed last night.
The list is currently:
Creatures: 22
2 Stoneforge
2 Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Lodestone Golem
Spells: 12
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Warping Wail
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
1 Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
Lands: 26
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors (though right now I have 1 Crystal Vein online because of dignity :P)
3 Eldrazi Temple
4 Wasteland
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Cavern of Souls
3 Plains
2 Karakas
SB: 15
2 Disenchant
3 RIP
3 STP
2 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Warping WailM
2 Pithing Needle
2 Containment Priest
This has felt like the best Thalia, Heretic Cathar shell I have seen or played. A few posts back a player commented on how his testing with Ancient Tomb to power out a turn 2 THC was gamebreaking. While I 100% agree, having the turn 1 THC will often put your opponent so far behind they will lose on the spot. For example, against Miracles to finish out 5-0, I ran out THC turn 1 into Thorn + Thalia GoT turn 2. He was dead in 3 turns and couldn't cast a removal spell until turn 4 :P.
What I really like about this deck though(despite loving the nut draws), is that it has the pros of a traditional stompy list with a lot less of the downside. The upside in my experience of a traditional stompy list is that they can have insane turn 1-3 plays, but if your opponent can get out of/disrupt the lock, they often win handily because you now either can't cast the rest of your cards (wasteland'ed out), or run out of gas. Th is deck is fine not having a nut draw and just playing a turn 2 Thalia, GoT or SFM and does just fine.
While I am not arguing that this deck is strictly better than DnT (I have played the deck for years and love my altered Moms, Thalias, SFMs, and equipment), I will put forth the reasons you may want to try this out.
Compared to DnT:
1. You can play hate pieces on turn 1. I'm sure we all know how miserable it is to lose to a lame combo deck because we simply didn't have a turn 2. Being able to run out a Chalice, Thalia, Revoker, Warping Wail, or post board RIP, thorn, or Containment priest feels so good and it really leads to a much more favorable matchup against these degenerate decks.
2. You don't lose to a single piece of designated hate Dread of night became a staple in my meta due to my success with DnT, and it was so incredibly frustrating to lose to. While I know we don't just fold 100% to a dread, it is often incredibly difficult to beat. -1/-1 effects (as well as punishing fire) also have very little impact on this deck (literally just killing 5 of the creatures in the deck) which is a nice change of pace
3. Kill speed is much, much faster It is very nice to be able to just run through games killing people at good speeds. At larger tournaments especially, it is nice to be able to have a break between rounds, and it is even nicer to be able to save the mental energy that is required in a 40-50-minute match.
Anyway, it is quite late so please excuse anything I may have left out. I love the deck thus far and am very excited to discuss it!
Actually I'm playing similar D&T/Eldrazi Stompy mix, just evolve a little:
Hey, it's W/g Eldrazi
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Endbringer
3 Blade Splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Mox Diamond
4 Brushland
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Karakas
4 City of Traitors
2 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Savannah
//SB
3 Warping Wail
4 Reclamation Sage
4 Rest in Peace
2 Tsunami //could be Collar or something vs meta call
2 Constant Mists
Few words about build -
I'm very happy not running any removal except Jitte MD, I also resolve Batterskull problem with 5/3 First Strike Golem thanks to Blade Splicer which is really very nice. It's a solid double creature more over ppl mostly kill token (bolt ect) since it gives a clock even better then Mattery Reshaper (which isn't my favorite since it dies to STP/Terminus with no benefits)
If you lose to flipped Delver, this mean opponent had too many wastelands - it happens, but most time you DON't need to kill that delver - you race it. Have jitte/Displacer if things get messy.
Golems are great vs Goyfs as more "Smashers" additional gives more egde against combo, specially with mentioned Blade Splicer.
Blade Splicer has also one more advantage - it's great vs BUG, Strix, Liliana ect.. It's not a problem just sacrifice token if needed, then Eldrazi Displacer gives you unlimited number of Tokens - just 2C x 3/3 Token with First Strike.
New Thalia proven in many other builds so it's not a surprise to running it.
Since SFM get popular again in many variants actually I omit it in my build since, it's slow and not good vs Combo. Maybe some SB slots if needed.
SB:
Reclamation Sage is probably best 2-for-1 creature - I wanted something which can't be hit by spell pierce, or get taxed by my own Thalia, additional Sage is best to S&T/Omni answer.
Rest in Peace - doesn't need to be explain.
Tsunami - that is probably interesting - it's mostly vs slow control decks - also miracles, but also a BUG Control (not shardless variants) with a lot of removal like innocent blood/Decay on chalice ect) - it's rather a meta call - not having any burn in meta - too many miracles.
Constant Mists - that's a new tool vs Mirror/Elves/Lands - since they can't interact with spells mostly, you can easily deny their Hoofs/Marit token turn, repeatable fog effect can give easily egde over opponent specially with so many first strike creatures (3 Splicer / 4 Golem - with spilcer / 3 Thalia / 3 Thalia 2.0 - gives 13 first strike creatures).
I would be very happy when WotC would print white version of Sage - just a disenchant on legs..
Welp, if the cat is out of the bag that this strategy is insane, I guess I'll post my list as well. I've done some slight tweaking, but I got this from a pair of guys at Gen Con who were crushing side events. I've only got around 80 games in with it so far, but it seems pretty nutty. I'm not 100% convinced that all my numbers are correct or that I have the correct creature suite, but the general strategy feels amazing.
Creature (26)
4x Eldrazi Displacer
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Reality Smasher
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Thought-Knot Seer
Land (24)
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Eldrazi Temple
1x Karakas
7x Plains
4x Wasteland
Artifact (10)
1x Batterskull
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Lotus Petal
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard (15)
2x Pithing Needle
4x Rest in Peace
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Thorn of Amethyst
3x Warping Wail
1x Armageddon
How does 8Thalia.dec deal with something like Sneak & Show with only 1 Karakas?
With the Displacers in the main, I could see 3-4 Containment Priest being pretty nasty in the SB. Otherwise, T1 new Thalia, early TKS, Chalice hurting cantrips, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
I have been running 2 karakas as protecting your own Thalias is a nice bonus. On top of that I have 2 Revokers. But really being able to shut off their mana with Lodestone, Thalia 1 & 2, and 4 wasteland in conjunction with chalice is often enough. Oh, and I have 2 main warping wail to counter show and tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
So, answers to SnS:
Sneak attack: Revoker, Thalia HC, mana denial, needle, disenchant, and Containment Priest Post-board
Show and Tell: Warping Wail, mana denial, Karakas, Containment Priest and another warping wail post board
Further defense of your list against sneak and show. Chalice shuts down their cantrips. If they have half the combo they now have to naturally draw the other half with brainstorm or ponder to fix their drawsQuote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk
As an avid D&T and White Eldrazi player, I'm happy to finally see hybrid lists pop up. And since they don't run Port, even I can use them on MTGO. :tongue:
The main appeal of White Eldrazi compared to D&T was the brutal speed in combination with possible T1 disruption, both elements D&T is lacking.
Elements I would definitely keep from White Eldrazi when building a hybrid list with are the Displacers, at least 2 Karakas copies and TKS. Reality Smasher would also be nice, if supportable. Thorn is imho only a SB card, especially with GoT already in the maindeck. Warping Wails should definitely be in the 75 - whether or not they're MD material depends on the list.
It's also debatable which direction to take from here. Should we go for the really tax-heavy approach with Lodestone Golem? Or for a strategy more focused on beatdown with Reality Smasher?
As for white mana accel, I personally prefered Lotus Petal over Mox Diamond in my White Eldrazi list, although things could turn out different since the basics are different.
Those mana artifacts bring me to another, interesting point: With THC, Moxen and Sol Lands, Winter Orb becomes alot more feasible (and brutal). That's why I might lean towards a more tax-heavy approach initially.
As for Containment Priest, when I still had more white in my deck, I ran a 3/3 split of Priest/RiP in the board. Felt pretty good.
Edit: Given the amount of hate it can pack for S&T in the 75, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Eldrazi Displacer alone is already pure hell for them.
Edit #2: If we run at least 3 SFM, I would definitely suggest trying to run multiple Swords of X & Y in the 75 to cover all 5 colors in protection. When I ran the "Xenoblade" plan in my more white-heavy Eldrazi list, I used Fire & Ice, Feast & Famine and War & Peace. Not sure if works here as well, but that would be 3 slots at best for potentially quite nutty gains in several match-ups.
I am kinda partial to the mystic-free builds. It frees up a lot of spaces to try out other stuff.
For example, I like the shitty things you can do with Thought-Knot Seer, Eldrazi Displacer, and Spirit of the Labyrinth or having Lodestone Golem, Thalia, and Thalia out at the same time. Or just make the freed up slots into removal. (Also, Reality Smasher seems to not quite fit.)
One more thing: With the effective curve of the deck moved up one whole mana symbol, there are a lot of hitherto weakly considered white spells that start to look good, though there is the cozy agreement that the first Cavern of Gemstones goes to human to consider. This might stretch the manabase too much.
Linvala, Keeper of Silence
Restoration Angel
Voidstone Gargoyle
etc
This is the list that I've been working on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
Creatures (26)
4 Endless One
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Matter Reshaper
3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Reality Smasher
Spells (9)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Warping Wail
Lands (25)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Caves of Koilos
3 City of Traitors
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Eye of Ugin
2 Karakas
2 Plains
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Rest in Peace
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Warping Wail
2 Dismember
75 Cards Total
Definitely agree with you on no Stoneforge Mystic. She, unfortunately, takes up too much deck space and doesn't synergize well with the deck as she's a third creature type to name with Cavern of Souls. I'd rather keep the deck as streamlined as possible and not have anything other than Human or Eldrazi in the 75 with the exception of Revoker cause Revoker is a beast. For this reason, I don't like Lodestone Golem in the 75 or Phyrexian Revoker maindeck. Besides, Thought Knot Seer is, for all intents and purposes, the same thing as Lodestone. Don't know how good Matter Reshaper is. Could definitely see it becoming extra Mox Diamond's or even a white Talisman.
If you want to go for Spirit of the Labyrinth shenanigans, I would also consider both Geier Reach Sanitarium and Mikokoro, Center of the Sea for card advantage. Sanitarium also gives you another way to completely draw-lock your opponent out of the game aside from instant speed removal. Sanitarium could also help you filter your deck of redundant dead cards. Problem is, without Spirit in play, your opponent can do the same, so it's a double-edged sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
But maybe that's just too cute and the more tax-heavy approach is more promising. Spirit and a few land slots shouldn't taking away that much deck space for that other angle of attack, though.
Few words about manabase in W/g lists, mostly Lotus Petal vs Mox Diamond:
Lotus Petal doesn't disadvantage your land count so virtually some hands will be playable in short term. Mox Diamond is more long term mana source, since you want running at as much as possible Sol lands (conting Eldrazi Temple) this mean you want be able to have constant white source.
I'm actually rnuning 12 cards which require white (3 of them are Eldrazi other are Humans - which helps). Since most SB are spells or not humans (Sage looking at you), Cavern of Souls can't be used so spreadly to have options to play SB cards.
So
12 White cards, 10 Eldrazi (C require), and 10 Colorless (non-C require) gives mix of Sol lands and white/green mana:
4 Eldrazi Temple - one of the best land
4 Ancient Tomb,
4 City of Traitors - it's necessary evil
2 Wasteland
1 Eye of Ugin - it's probably debatable - maybe 3th wasteland/Sea Gate Wreckage/Colored source ?
------------------
15 C source
4 Brushland
2 Savannah
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
-------------------
10 W source / 8 G source
Little inbalance vs colors required, but it's needed to still have exposive starts, that's why I fix them with 3 Mox Diamonds - it's good to replace 2nd City, or Karakas. Longer I think I should replace Eye of Ugin for wasteland, I never use it's ability. I would rather use Sea Gate Wreckage, since you can empty hand faster with Moxes.
Last debatable lands are 2 savannah's since I'm running quite a lot of green cards I need to keep as much as possible Green sources, even with Mox those are only 11 ones, which not always come, specially when needed as soon as possible / Bridge /Skull etc.
I was also thinking about changing 1 brushland, 2 savannah and Eye for 2 fetchlands two basics to fight moon effects. Adding Moxes it would give 7 turn 1 play vs moon (on play), and 4 exits to moon turn 1 on draw.
I don't like SotL at all it feeds goyf (add here artifact and you have problems), it can be champed very easy, and last one - it does the same as chalice, but worst. Only advantage which I'm seeing is negate TKS draw trigger in their turn. Revoker seems better in this slot - still not a fan of it.
@Fatal: I think you're too greedy trying to force green and white while having various creature types for Cavern. I'm also not a fan of 4x City. Yes, it's a necessary evil, but 4 is really pushing it. I don't see a point in running Eye with your current set-up.
I like what DisgruntledElk and Medea are aiming for better. The should definitely aim to have a better manabase than regular Eldrazi as that is one of the deck's big weak points.
Played your list in a small local tourney with some small changes:Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledElk
+1 Revoker +1 SFM -1 THC -1 Dismember
Went 3-0-1, winning against Storm, Nic Fit and Elves, drawing against Miracles. Finished the third extra turn with a lethal attack lined up for turn 5 with him empry handed, but he topdecked a random creature to chump on his turn. Felt bad, but looking back on it, he had a lot of outs.
Liked the list a lot, had a lot of good synergy, though I sometimes got stuck with a bunch of 4-drops in hand. Also I have to admit against Miracles I was really missing something with haste to pressure him after a sweeper or to kill his Jace. I'll probably try to get 2-3 Reality Smasher into the board.
I already replaced Eye - building list with evolving each game, playing for a while with 2 fetchland 2 basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Me and a local player have been testing Dnt splash blue for spell queller. I think it's very good, but the manabase is a bit fragile so your sequencing has to be perfect. His list features 3 eldrazi displacer, 1 aven mindcensor, and 3 queller as the 3 drops while mine is 4 wisp and 3 queller.
I think both versions are valid as displacer and wisp are very unique cards with different functions. The idea behind the UW list is that it is a disruptive tempo deck. In my version when vial is ticked up to 3 you are essentially threatening flickerwisp and spell queller (which acts a lot like flickerwisp, so essentially the list is 7 flickerwisps) for the rest of the game (huge tempo plays). Queller does a really good job at protecting equipment and stopping low-cost "fuck white creatures" spells. I don't know if I would take the list to a major tournament, but it has been quite fun. I recommend you guys test out the card (and possibly a spellskite with it?) and play the UW splash with meddling mage. Queller + mage have a lot of synergy with each other.
Hope others feel inspired to go along with the splash. I'm very excited about it, and for those you who know me you'll know I HATE splashes in this deck with a burning passion, so make of that what you will.
I've been running a blue splash for a while now. I have only tested spell queller out of the board, where I saw it working best was against lands. I only got to test it once as I've been playing around with brews in legacy the past few weeks. Focusing mostly on new thalia. What have your experiences with queller been like? Any plays that really stuck out? Maybe specifically what spells do you generally try to hit with it. I love hitting an abrupt decay with it. I have found with 4 Flickerwisp and 2 restoration angel it was a lot of fun using spell queller. I have loved having vial on 3 and 4 mana for resto to have the curve of queller into resto on a key spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox
Queller is really good when the lock is down regardless of vial's ticks. I got to exile my opponent's toxic deluge for 4 life which was pretty sweet. I also got to exile a snapcaster mage which was pretty sweet. I dunno, basically he's just pretty neat and exiles annoying stuff and beats for 2. Perfect fit IMO, and the only creature really worth splashing for (besides meddling mage, which by itself was never worth the splash due to it being so delicate)
It's been a while since I last toyed with the U splash, but I don't think you should so readily dismiss at least Geist of Saint Traft, Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique and True-Name Nemesis (not saying they should all get a spot, but they are worth considering in general, depending on what you want your build to do). I also always felt an urge to try Thassa, God of the Sea for her Scry trigger and synergy with Geist, for example.Quote:
Originally Posted by monovfox