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Jim, list looks good and your plan sounds fine to me. Sometimes they just have it. Not all of them play PoP and there's really nothing we can do about that if we cut our Thoughtseizes. I do try to fetch basics game 2 against them just in case they have it or blood moon, but you can't always do that. Darkblast main seems really strong against these strategies, I may give that a look.
Thank you for the suggestions!Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
The Wildwood is honestly a card I've been testing on and off as a secondary threat. So far I really haven't run into too many situations where it was bad, but then again just because it isn't bad doesn't mean it's optimal. In regards to equipment I definitely plan to run a 3rd equipment, it's just a matter of deciding which one. SoFaI would probably be the best selection but I may just relent to my inner desires and run Greaves. I know it's not the best but I've always loved running it (with SB Manriki-Gusari) as I seem to be the only person who ever runs them and thus catch a number of people by surprise. Tbh Greaves isn't even bad as we have a number of must-answer threats and keeping a Bob or SFM untouchable can be deadly. Only issue being that SoFaI or SoFaF give us a better clock and provide stronger utility via their secondary abilities.
I think I'll reduce the Teeg's to two. 3 seems redundant, and with the Bob/Library/GSZ I think 2 will suffice for my needs. The Chokes can probably go as well, or at least be reduced to a 1-of tutor should I feel the need. I'll agree decks like Elves may give problems so perhaps running Persecution or Deed would be in order. I most likely won't opt for the 3rd Liliana as I really like the idea of running either a 3rd Library or 1 SDT (simply because I only have 2 Library atm. and don't want to invest in a 3rd right now :p).
But I'm definitely feeling confident with how this is playtesting. I've pretty much gotten it to the point where there's very little to improve upon; it's just fine tuning small numbers at this point.
Forlorn
Vancouver Legacy Classic Streaming now!
http://www.twitch.tv/metsir
-Matt
I was "undefeated" at a mean 2-0-2, beating a grave brew, Elves, drawing with D&T (so close!) and DGA.
The list was pretty experimental and a bit similar to Forlorn's(?)
Main Deck:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Life from the Loam
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thoughtseize
3 Toxic Deluge
Reasoning:
-There's been a lot of combo lately and my defense of Sculler had me wanting to try him out. My fair game with Sorin had been fine without really seeing him, so trading him for scullers to deal with the myriad decks worthy of disrupting seemed good.
-Sculler is much better with Equips, so SFM was a strong candidate
-SFM + Souls + KotR + Lily is hard to sell, so Souls ended up going. The reasoning was that I could have actual card advantage where they were. That said, I missed them a lot.
-Pulse took Lily #4 as the local D&T players run Leyline and I was zombied out a couple times by Dredge last week. Hitting sculls and things seemed alright.
-Loam was for all of it's random nice synergies, but saw no play against opponents given how many basics I was up against (Elves was the most non-basic heavy.)
So:
-Scullers seemed fine. They didn't piss me off for once. I think I'm getting how you use them; which is also why I had dropped souls (for this list.) Basically, they're only good if everything is must kill. He's always must kill and is devestatingly good against D&T due to their lack of removal.
-Pulse. It's ok. It's weaker than Lily so I can hedge against stuff. It hedged mildly against skull, but nothing a Lily eating the germ once/twice couldn't have done. It killed like.. a heritage druid too.
-SFM I think is the difference between drawing/not drawing. It sounds weird given how swingy and decisive the games tend to be. It could be sculler/lack of souls as well, as Sculler pushes the game and Souls (while they also slow the game down) don't tend to stall the board state, but rather push life totals. She was good. I think I like the 2x3 setup.
-SoLaS, given my MUs, was a hedge against DGA and D&T, and it performed well. I was just about to drop it G3 against D&T but mana was too tight to do everything and we had a board stall of SoFaI face-offs and large board presence on each side.
-Loam did nothing this week, but I do like how it connects with Lily, as a psuedo-land (T2 rampant growth) and Top Synergy. We'll see.
-I really missed souls; though Bitterblossom or Outpost has been on my mind.
-Second cage + Scullers felt awesome against elves. Every card I drew that wasn't a land/Bob was a way to disrupt.
I definitely felt the SFM + Top disynergy again and may go 2-3 library next week, but then again, I was using Top like a maniac and it felt good.
D&T 1-1-1
G1 - I expect an easy win but we board-stall due to Sculler and Bob vs. Thalia (he won't swing, I can't draw removal.) Bob does a horrendous amount of damage to me while not drawing removal and I die to a timely crusader. I may have won if I hadn't walked a fetch into a Mindscensor that I knew about; but I tried to be tricky. This is how we learn! (I had a sword or some such that I couldn't get down due to being a mana short.)
G2 - He can't keep anything on the board. I suit bob up with SoFaI and he decides to trade sick-Mom with a flashed Aven to kill him. I of course fill the board with dudes and voltron him. At some point I pulse a BSK.
G3 - Grindy and weird. I sculler a WLL after he plows something, I eventually have Bob KotR DRS but he has SoFaI on Thalia; so I'm sacing dudes to keep her from connecting and he's requipping (or some such) so I can't get in. I get my own SoFaI and have SFM in hand during rounds. I would've grabbed SoLaS and *probably* won, but it's hard to tell because drawing a Swords would get him a WLL; which may or may not be enough.
Brew (Zombardment without the Bombardment) 2-1
G1 - He has a Bob#2 I can't answer, it gets out of control and I concede with empty hand against DRS, Bob, Lily on 5 or 6.
G2 - DRS basically wins the game. Draw a good amount of removal as well.
G3 - Don't remember it well, but he has awesome therapy targets but no therapy. He has to walk Bob and something else into Decays while I DRS my hand out ASAP. Scullers sits on PoP (lol!) and he dies 4 Damage at a time. Since I loaned him a chunk of the land base (7 lands and 3 guides) he concedes given I have lethal on board and such.
Semi-budget DGA, very weird config for tonight (everything is action, no tops/librarys, no DRS or Mom) 1-1-1
G1 - Removal trades for awhile and he gets beaten slowly by Scullers IIRC
G2 - He has an active bob for awhile but gets land screwed after he and I waste eachother. Unfortunately he unlandscrews right before lethal and has 3 Plow, a Lily, 2 Lingering Souls and a pair of SFM while having an equipped soul on the board. Ugh. I lose despite having double-equips and such.
G3 - We go to time quickly but he has board advantage with Lily + Stuff
Elves 2-1
G1 - I'm worried he's on belcher and mull to look for discard, but I only find sculler and say decide it'll have to be good enough. He's on elves! I steal NO with Sculler but he sages it and goes off. I don't think I had a chance since he had EV + WS. I did have a Jitte online, but I couldn't connect with it (obviously.)
G2 - I have Triple Plow, Decay, Sculler, Bayou,Waste. Yep, keep. Over the game I discard 2-3 of his cards (or sculler them) get Teeg out, plow three dudes, decay one, pulse one, Lily one I think. He still gets a NO off but he gets Thar; unfortunately Thar prefers Karakas over the battlefield.
G3 - I have a good mix and get Cage Teeg DRS and Lily online after killing a guy or two. This turns out to be inconvenient for him.
(for fun) G4 - He gets greedy with DRS + land. I plow it and he misses a Land drop. :D. waste + DRS on my turn. Then Lily eating his lone dude and no lands next turn. he concedes and I show him Sculler, TS, (other stuff?) and he'd be discarding 3 next turn.
Hope the wall of text was informative. I think I need souls as an out to Flyers and Lily, but I imagine it starts cutting into my Lily and KotR numbers. List felt good, KotR didn't do anything today and I imagine it has to do with Swords and the fact Sculler shores up what KotR is supposed to shore up. Maybe I'll try Goyf next to Sculler. KotR is good for random decks like Nic FIt though... so we'll see. One of the Nic Fit guys was there again and so was S&T and maybe 12-post
Tonight is my last weekly to test for Eternal Weekend, and I'm not sure where I want to go.
I miss playing with Sylvan Library, but it's that or Spirit of the Labyrinth. Spirit of the Lab is so good against cantrip decks, but kind of a soft body and definitely has situations where it does actual nothing. I thought about adding more mainboard Teegs, but Teeg does nothing against Brainstorm, Gitaxian Probe, and Ponder, which all trigger Swiftspear and Pyromancer and flip Delver and filter/feed the inevitable bolt Teeg, play Cruise turn.
But I had cut Liliana for them, and she still seems really bad right now. Lots of Elves, lots of Young Pyromancer, lots of Treasure Cruise. She used to be a soft lock in one card, but now it's too easy to fool her edict or refuel after a couple discards. Still want at least 2 in the 75 because Miracles stubbornly hangs around but I definitely don't want to see her against most of the field.
I cut the Spirits, put my Libraries back and added a 2nd Cabal Therapy and 4th Swords. I guess I feel like those are just powerful spells and it doesn't change my mana curve for Bob. Not sure if that will make it to this evening though.
After some consideration on the "perfect" -1/-1 effect, I'm going to be trying 1-2 Orzhov Pontiff in the main this week. He carry's equipment while being a boss against random stuff; including answering (with card advantage built in) UR Delver's Pyros. Other places are of course Elves, Mom decks (Mav, D&T, DGA), Esper w/ Souls, and the out to storm of course.
My reasoning is that Charm and ZP are dead topdecks in a lot of scenarios, but having a sword-carrier is always relevant. It's also pretty sweet that it can happen multiple times in attrition battles. My issue with Charm/ZP is that since you can't get -2/-2 they miss a huge amount of things I'd like to hit (Crusader, full boards, zombie tokens) so can be dead even in fair MUs. EE suffers a similar issue at times (though I like it better) since in an example of Souls + Dude or Pyro + tokens you can only hit one or the other; but Pontiff gets the benefits of having a timely charm while being able to just voltron an opponent.
I do feel like I need to find a way to get some sacrifice effects to fully utilize him, so maybe I'll go to the 3 TS 2 Therapy plan. Jitte, SoFai, and Lily may be enough to abuse a second activation.
@Maharis
I 100% disagree with you on Lily and feel obligated to post it in response to you every time you claim it. TA still runs her and is topping. I would call that sufficient evidence. Hymn got worse because it's CA is fixed and worse than cruise (while having all of it's original problems.) Lily is a variable amount of CA, but activating her twice (not uncommon) in concert with any other CA card has given you the CA of cruise.
I think if you're running Pontiff, try something like:
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 SFM
3 Dark Confidant
2 Orzhov Pontiff
15
2 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
5
4 Abrupt Decay
3 STP
7
2 Lingering Souls
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Equipment
3 Sylvan Library
10
23-24 lands
You're a bit heavy on the 3-drops, but you can abuse Cabal Therapy and Pontiff a bit more - you run 3 therapy so you can use Pontiff and Souls very well.
-Matt
You know what gets around the EE problem of hitting Pyro+ tokens? Pernicious Deed. Card's good in a big way right now, especially with Miracles being leaps and bounds the best deck. But, collateral damage on Deed can be insane, that's why I'd rather just run EE.
-Matt
Ooor... Toxic Deluge?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I have ruined Pyromancers with well-timed ZPs. This creates no collateral + synergizes with our Lingering Souls.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
The hard part is a) countermagic (every other option suffers here as well) and b) waiting on the opponent to be cute and make tokens off a chain of spells. You want to throw them off guard by letting them cantrip + create tokens ---> wipe the table with ZP. ZP also works against Elves.
@maharis
I too have been thinking about the UR cruise matchup. Teeg is not the answer. The times I beat the deck (as Junk/Mav), I removed their threats. For this reason, I would run removal out the ass -- spot removal or x-for-1 sweepers --- and would keep Liliana in (despite their burn spells and Pyromancer tokens) because she has more upside than downside.
Spirit is just "bad" in my experience. Everyone wants to live the proverbial dream of denying brainstorm and ponder but don't realize the creature needs an open table to attack (good luck against UR delver and Elves). Spirit is also fragile (see: lightning bolt, forked bolt, and everything in between).
If I were to play at Eternal Weekend, the core of my deck would be:
3 Liliana of the Veil
6 Discard (TS/IoK/Therapy)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
I'd hedge my bets against Combo -- since UR and BUG are warping everyone into thinking tempo decks with daze/force are the best. This opens the door for elves, sneak/show, and storm to run around. At worst, discard is handy against everything and miserable against a few decks.
The creature/threat suite you use comes down to playstyle and availability. SFM is generally good for a big room because it packs the propensity to randomly win/turn the tide. Goyf would be my weak link right now. He actually isn't so hot because he's "only" an under-costed non-flying vanilla -- at a time in which the format is pushing "value" cards. Scooze would be more appropriate IMHO. If you want to be spicy: Gut Shot (should you see lots of weenie, elves, and UR delver).
Deluge no bueno against Miracles. I was looking for some crossover. If you're strictly trying to muck creatures, then Deluge does work, albeit with some collateral damage as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
It's been a long while since I dusted off my Deeds, but I'm not close to running it in this deck again. I'm usually running out 1, sometimes 2, permanents each turn that cost between 1 and 3, and I'd be hesitant to hold back my own board to gain value on a Deed that is damn sure getting countered if they can find a way. I guess the best cast scenario is that they Daze your Deathrite, Force your Bob, go off with Pyromacer, and then Deed resolves and nukes their board the following turn, achieving a 2+ for 1 against them, but at the cost of plenty of life, and they may have TC'd in the mean time.
I love Deed to death, but I'm a whole lot more apt to run ZP, or EE. Pontiff is a spicy one that I may have to try out. In the dark, it seems quite hard to get a -2/-2 out of him, being that you need him to enter play (3 mana), and then follow that with 2 things that kill your own guys (this means 2 Flashbacked Therapies, a Therpay + a Liliana -2 on yourself O.o, or additional mana to Decay + Flashback/Liliana yourself). Granted, getting the -1 effect is all you want vs Pyromancers, but if you're looking to nab other stuff too, it will require work.
In other news, I think I'll try running a pair of Chains of Mephistopheles in the main again. I've done it in the past (but didn't like it, posted in TR or this thread several months ago), and then I saw the article posted today in the Articles board where a Jund player points out why that might be strong. Seems to make sense. It's already a borderline mainboardable card in a blind meta, and a Star City hosted GP with a sweet new card drawing spell in the format seems like now could be the best time in years to maindeck it.
I went 1-2 with a variant of my usual build. I played 2 lilianas main and no spirits. 1 Teeg main. Sideboard:
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Plague
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Enlightened Tutor
Rd. 1 vs BUG pod. I never see a VetEx in three games, but he does resolve one Treasure Cruise. He wins game 1 after 4-for-1-ing me with Deed, but I get turn 1 Cage in game 2 and waste him out in game 3. Fun match, I got blown out by sower of temptation and murderous redcap in my first game of the legacy weekly. What a format.
Rd. 2 vs. Reanimator. Lose die roll. game 1 he has turn 2 griz. Game 2 I have turn 1 cage. Game 3 I miss the win. He has an ashen rider early, but I have souls tokens to chump while I get SoFaF online and play a cage. I lose the race, but I did have enough mana to equip my sword postcombat to an untapped spirit if I wanted to stay alive. Misplay by me.
Rd. 3 vs elves. I am so sick of losing to this deck. In game one he draws about 15 cards on turn 4 then passes. I have a sylvan out. All I need is a thoughtseize. Nope. I board in 12 cards. In game 2 i keep 6: cage, sfm x2, waste, marsh flats, thoughtseize. I play cage, he does something. I seize him, taking visionary and leaving 2 GSZ, heritage Druid, nettle sentinel. He plays his cards out. I get SoFaF. He rips his one-of Reclamation Sage, blows up cage, plays some guys, and ends up digging up Ruric Thar. I kill a lot of his board with a zealous but can't build enough defense before he bounces sage to kill my SoFaF with a wirewood symbiote. I hate this deck more than any blue deck in the format. I try not to be salty but this is the second game in a row they have ripped the one-of Sage to blow up my Cage and win.
Cage ended up being the most important card in my 75 tonight, haha. Liliana was a non-factor. I did keep her in against Reanimator, but didn't see her in time. I boarded her out in other matches. I would've liked to have had Spirit when I faced a turn 1 griz and my elf opponent drew 15 cards in a turn. However, I don't think it's worth losing sylvan to play spirit. So I'm still at a crossroads. No more testing before Philly though so I might just roll with this build. I could see an argument to play zealous main and side the Lilis though. I still think she is bad against elves and cruise delver, which should be the most popular decks in the room this weekend.
I keep almost posting. I guess I'll sum up my thoughts.
@matt
Deed is cool, but it costs a boatload of mana. I've tried it a bit, but it's worse against miracles than it looks/feels. It just stalls a long time. You certainly have more game but you eventually get Jace'd out. That's just IME. I'm done dedicating anything but some Teegs and Chokes to it. Deluge is pretty sweet I've found.
I'll probably stick with KotR for a bit. If anything I think the push towards Cruise makes him better (between Bog and being a bigger beater.) I didn't find Goyf did anything I couldn't do with KotR and I have too many relevant MUs for him at the moment; with a note that he didn't do anything last time, but neither would goyf in those situations. (Crusader, RiP, Elves.)
Reanimator is a strong MU IMO, even without KotR. I'd see if you can't get some practice in; as it'll be a big deck over the weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I wouldn't play ZP over *lily*, I'd play ZP over Decay. Decay is getting mildly weaker (Elves, Reanimator) and I have good DGA buddies who main 2-4 ZP to good success. The thing to remember is that Lily does really good on an open board and -1/-1 effects help you counter her exact weaknesses. I think they go well together anyway.
I blew my Reanimator match, I agree the MU is favorable. Just have to remember to move my sword.
I wish I had practiced with Knights. I think they might be really good now. Also would allow me to play deluge, which is definitely good. Deed is sweet, but too slow for us, plus it's anti-synergistic with equips and sylvan. Deluge plus a fattie cures a lot of ills.
I can't see going to less than 4 decay. Counterbalance and Delver are still really popular.
Your reasoning on Decay/ZP is the same as mine really; but they do that *I think.* They have a fine Delver MU since they spam Souls and discard (3 Sculler, 6 1CMC) plus the usualy Plows and such. ZP + Souls is a bear really; since they also protect the souls from -1/-1 sometimes while trading up using it as a combat trick. Quite obnoxious. With that; they do have a terrible Miracles MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
I had forgotten about equips, which really turn my opinion against deed
Realistically, if the Delver decks are drawing more cards, it means they have more counterspells. Cutting Decay in any way, shape, or form appears short sighted. I'd run 8 in this meta if I could.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
ZP is very good in a meta of TNN, Elves, and Young Money. Again, this could be maindeck if you really feel that strongly about it in your meta. Elves is one of the better decks in the meta, especially when it is facing 4 hate cards or less.
I've been derping around with this Depths list and I'm just going to throw it up. No testing, just adjusting in case you're looking for something to try at EW.
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Life from the Loam
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Living Wish
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Swamp
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 1 Karakas
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 Chains of Mephistopheles
Hexmage is good at blowing up Jaces and if you play it foreign, most people doesn't know it first-strikes. EE could just be ZP if you felt like it, as well.
If you are going to EW, prepare yourself for Delver and Miracles and some Elves. The other stuff? You can probably skimp on the hate.
-Matt
@sdematt:
Dammit Matt, you got me thinking Junk-Depths now. I'd tweak your list to include a loam + mox + chalice core. I don't like relying upon hexmage, as thespian stage is a thing nowadays too. T1 Chalice would hurt UR delver and Elves a lot.
Stage is in the main. Hexmage is value and backup and allows you to go off with one Knight activation in one turn.
I've tried the Chalice Rock Depths plan, but it can be very unwieldy, and leads to you cutting out the likes of Swords and DRS that you need to be able to keep up with Tempo decks. Granted, the deck I had played more Living Wishes (a Hoogland build), but it leaves you with a deck that tries to be too cute while you're getting smashed by 3/2 bugs.
At this moment I'm tempted to run Jund or Jund Depths at the GP for the sake of the Punishing Fire package, but I'm worried about heavy graveyard hate if people try to overreact to Treasure Cruise - plus the inconsistencies of those decks. I think Rock has the advantage of using hatebears (Thalia, Teeg) and meta enchantments, along with ETutors to fetch them.
I think if tuned correctly, Rock can have a fine matchup against xUR Delvers and Burn through incorporation of SFM (Skull, Jitte, maybe swords) and main Golgari Charm and be able to easily bring in hate like EPlague, Spirit of the Labia, Chains, and hell maybe even Equipoise (goodbye Pyro tokens, batterskull token, Sensei's top, angel tokens, phase out TNN) and Seal of Primordium (Counterbalance).
How is the Miracles matchup these days?