Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hello everybody,
That's my first post in the mtgthesource forum, i've following the forum for more than one year, and trying to decide which legacy deck is more comfortable for me =P
In the last one year I've played Storm(ANT and TES) but the deck is very complex to me. So I've changed to a BURG delver w/DRS, this deck is very nice but I preffer something more control, then I've tried a UWR Delver and now, finally, I'm passionate with Miracles deck.
But, I don't have decided yet which Miracle build to use. I've played a few champs with the Traditional build, with no more than 3 creatures, and have finished most part of times 3-2. Have played a champ with the Enchantment build, with 4 RIP, 2 helm and 2 energy field MD, this build is nice too, but very oppening hand dependent.
And Now, I'm seeing some build with SFM pack. Could anyone explain me about this build ? Why to use SFM and Batterskull ? when to play it ? How is the matchups agains the most commons decks ?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Seattle is the first SCG circuit with the new format. There were 3 Miracles in the Legacy top 16.
Kiesel at 16th: Based off Ein's list, -2 Ponder + 2 Clique
I used to run something like his, but not anymore.
Traut at 11th: Based off Ein's list, -1 Jace +1 Snapcaster, -1 Ponder +1 Pyroclasm
I got a feeling he did an audible by moving a Jace to SB.
Bass at 1st: Miracle Blade, I'm still trying to understand how did this list finishing first.
Lol. I guess my list is Ein's -4 Ponder +2 Clique +1 Jace, +1 Karakas, then. Or is it Joe's, -1 Venser -2 Relics...
I think 2 Ponder, 2 Snapcaster, 2 Clique was somewhat standard a few years back, and all these lists have went one direction or another.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
2 Ponder was the standard "years" back? Maybe your perception is a little flawed and you might want to take a look at Maximes, Paolos and my list from GP Paris Top8. I'm pretty sure that it was this event that started the "2-Ponder-Standard".
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
To be fair, Raphael Levy pioneered 4 Ponder in Miracles at GP Strasburg 2013. Even though the rest of his list still looks somewhat wacky. :wink:
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Einherjer
2 Ponder was the standard "years" back? Maybe your perception is a little flawed and you might want to take a look at Maximes, Paolos and my list from GP Paris Top8. I'm pretty sure that it was this event that started the "2-Ponder-Standard".
Greetings
I wouldn't call it a "2-Ponder Standard", but as someone just pointed out, 4 Ponder was in Levy's and other European lists way before GP Paris. Levy even said in his article that he borrowed someone else's deck and hardly ever got a chance to play Legacy. When I said "years back", I was referring to this 2012 SCG Invitational, which is when Miracles was put on the map, and R&D started printing hate cards like Abrupt Decay to control it:
http://starcitygames.com/events/cove...game_brea.html
http://starcitygames.com/events/120923_atlanta.html
I guess 2 and a half years is quite some time, but that's when me and a lot of other people started looking into the deck. Most lists back them had some number of Preordain, Ponder, or Portents, Joe's included:
http://www.starcitygames.com/events/..._with_joe.html
Ponder's been a flex slot in these lists, and I wouldn't say any number is the standard. Although now, a lot of people see 4 copies and just copy that.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Bass at 1st: Miracle Blade, I'm still trying to understand how did this list finishing first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vermelho
Hello everybody,
That's my first post in the mtgthesource forum, i've following the forum for more than one year, and trying to decide which legacy deck is more comfortable for me =P
In the last one year I've played Storm(ANT and TES) but the deck is very complex to me. So I've changed to a BURG delver w/DRS, this deck is very nice but I preffer something more control, then I've tried a UWR Delver and now, finally, I'm passionate with Miracles deck.
But, I don't have decided yet which Miracle build to use. I've played a few champs with the Traditional build, with no more than 3 creatures, and have finished most part of times 3-2. Have played a champ with the Enchantment build, with 4 RIP, 2 helm and 2 energy field MD, this build is nice too, but very oppening hand dependent.
And Now, I'm seeing some build with SFM pack. Could anyone explain me about this build ? Why to use SFM and Batterskull ? when to play it ? How is the matchups agains the most commons decks ?
Responding to both in this post. Welcome vemelho to the Source! First things first, I don't know how much experience you have with legacy. From what you posted it seems like you've played a wide mix of the meta, in which case it would probably okay to start grinding miracles. If you were new to the format though I'd advise against playing miracles simply because playing reactive control decks is bad when you lack experience with the format.
As for the matter of Stoneforge that you and twndomn brought up, I can't say to exactly why Joe Bass did better since I wasn't present at the tournament. But his name is a face within the legacy community and he is known for playing miracles (with Stoneforge often as well) so my guess that him winning relies heavily on the fact that he knows the deck particularly well. As for Stoneforge's effectiveness in the main, play skill aside the card seems pretty good in the general meta at the moment. I don't like playing it in the main if I were to play it, but playing it in the main doesn't seem terrible. It gives the deck another way to significantly affect the board, which is not a bad place to be at the moment since the US meta seems fairly heavy with delver and stoneblade atm.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thought I'd stop lurking and do a quick tournament report for a change.
I finished 16th at the SCG Seattle Premier IQ.
Decklist was Ein's GP list -1 pyroblast -2 ponder -1 snapcaster +2 clique +1 karakas +1 council's judgement
I made this switch after seeing a larger than expected number of liliana's in the room at SCG portland and expecting a similar crowd + a decent number of blade decks and storm decks from the invitational. I tried the 4 ponder list at SCG portland, but I was a bit inexperienced with it having mainly played the legend build, also got paired against Jund round 1(can the 4 ponder list beat a resolved liliana game 1?)
SCG Seattle 5k:
R1 - TES 2-1 I have more counterspells/counterbalances then he has discard spells/abrupt decays
R2 - Jund 1-2 Steal game 1 at 1 life as he got greedy a few turns earlier and p-fired me twice end of turn tapping out to return the p-fire to hand and I clique it away. Lose the next 2 to Liliana though I punted on an opportunity to clique a p-fire to the bottom in response to a liliana tick up that may have cost me the game.
R3 - Reanimator 2-0 he milled to 3 and conceded early after getting an entomb countered...then mulled to 5 and scooped to a fast countertop, perfect timing for a round like this as I had 30 mins to get lunch
R4 - Goblins 2-0 Opponent leads with cavern on goblins. I get a fast top and entreat for 2 on turn 4 to trade with a piledriver + goblin chieftain(he incineratered the angel blocking chieftain). Had to shuffle away top to get the 2 angels,but draw ponder next turn which finds the 2nd entreat. I entreat for 3 and attack with 2 putting him to 10 he taps out getting to a board presence of piledriver, matron, warchief, ringleader. I use the angel I kept back to block the piledriver and drop to 3, flash in snap eot for the lethal crackback. G2 he doesn't provide a lot of early pressure and I eventually natural miracle entreat for 6(he sideboarded a bit weird too, brought in RIP to stop snaps I guess?).
R5 - UWR Stoneblade 2-0 played Adam Ruprecht this round, he's a really solid Seattle area player who normally plays his countertop thopterblade deck, but today he is on stoneblade with young peezy. I hadn't played this matchup before, but it seems really in favor of miracles. Most of his creatures were dead on the spot or terminused soon after countertop and clique clean things up soon after. The deck just doesn't pressure as fast as UR which really gives you time to setup.
R6 - Mono U Omnitell 2-0 Only memorable play this match was G2 I have 7 land in play and I eot entreat, he's at 18 and has boseju in play. I have force in hand, so I choose to entreat for 4(keeping 1 mana up). He flusterstorms and I pay for 1 copy and force the 2nd. Entreat resolves and the attack brings him to 2 which turns off boseju and makes the counterspell + snap in hand much better.
R7 - Elves 2-1 Barely lose game 1 with Jace at 13..he has to combo off 3 times, 2 times through jace fateseal. Perhaps I should have brainstormed with jace more, but I had top and the top of my library was swords, terminus, terminus, so I thought being aggressive would work. Game 2 he casts natural order, in response I tap out to top and find terminus the 3rd card down. I have force in hand for the natural order, but counting craterhoof he could only do 13 with me at 20. I decide to let the NO resolve and terminus on my turn, saving the force for the next attempt. Instead of craterhoof he gets progenitus, which makes me happy. Game 3, turn 1 top, turn 2 pyroclasm, he doesn't play a creature turn 3, I play counterbalance.
R8 - ANT 0-2 Win and in against Jesse Hampton. I sat next to him R7, so I know he's on storm. Game 1 mull to 6 after seeing a 7 of lands and white spells. keep a 6 of force, snap fetch plains terminus swords. Proceed to draw terminus, jace, council's judgement, jace. He therapied the force away early, but duresses me before going for the kill and takes council's judgment.... Game 2 was a bit more interesting, but he ends up keeping a heavy discard hand with decay as well and I find all of my situational storm sideboard cards(izzet staticcaster, pyroclasm, and ee) instead of finding more counters.
End up 6-2 for 16th place.
I liked the setup of the deck. I really liked bringing the cliques main. They are good against a lot of decks and that opens up the sideboard for more powerful targeted hate against some decks(really wanted to play against UR delver with 2 BEB in the board). Didn't play against delver all day though, which felt a bit strange. I really want to fit in the 2 other ponders, but not sure where there is room for them in the deck. Perhaps I'll try Ein's list from before the GP next.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
My buddy Phillip Braverman locked up another top 8 this past weekend with Miracles. For what it's worth, we think Dig Through Time is super good in the deck.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
My buddy Phillip Braverman locked up another top 8 this past weekend with Miracles. For what it's worth, we think Dig Through Time is super good in the deck.
for what reasons?
Usually it's just miracle 7, I've found :D
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
My buddy Phillip Braverman locked up another top 8 this past weekend with Miracles. For what it's worth, we think Dig Through Time is super good in the deck.
We don't know how much testings you have done with him, but since he's not available, do you feel the graveyard resource contention between the 2 Snapasters and 2 Digs? He has 1 Grafdigger's Cage and 2 Rest in Peace SB. RiP turns off your own 4 cards while Cage turns off 2. Wouldn't Priest be a better option for the Cage slot?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
vnayin
Thought I'd stop lurking and do a quick tournament report for a change.
I finished 16th at the SCG Seattle Premier IQ.
Decklist was Ein's GP list -1 pyroblast -2 ponder -1 snapcaster +2 clique +1 karakas +1 council's judgement
I made this switch after seeing a larger than expected number of liliana's in the room at SCG portland and expecting a similar crowd + a decent number of blade decks and storm decks from the invitational. I tried the 4 ponder list at SCG portland, but I was a bit inexperienced with it having mainly played the legend build, also got paired against Jund round 1(can the 4 ponder list beat a resolved liliana game 1?)
I liked the setup of the deck. I really liked bringing the cliques main. They are good against a lot of decks and that opens up the sideboard for more powerful targeted hate against some decks(really wanted to play against UR delver with 2 BEB in the board). Didn't play against delver all day though, which felt a bit strange. I really want to fit in the 2 other ponders, but not sure where there is room for them in the deck. Perhaps I'll try Ein's list from before the GP next.
Good Job. Clique is obviously good against combos and about half of your matches were against combos. You anticipated many matches involving Liliana but only one match you run into her, and you lost the match anyway despite MD Cliques, that's an interesting experience you've described.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I was wondering if somebody can give me a general rule when Flusterstorm is better than Spell Pierce and vice versa. I find those cards quite often competing for the same spot in SB games (I play 2 of each).
Lets take UR delver for example non instants/sorceries im worried about would include: Pithing needle, Sulfuric Vortex, Null rod.
However this matchup is all about resolving CB. in this case Flusterstorm would help much more in the counterwar. However Counterbalance is much worse with a needled top, especially since i take out 2 Jaces.
Another thing im wondering is, is a second wear/tear better than Councils Judgement? Obviously wear/tear can sometimes be dead, but CJ is sooo much slower and wear tear is much more flashbackable with snappy. I think CJ is non playable against fast decks UR,rug or Burn. What are matchups in which one would bring a single CJ and no wear/tear?
Answers are greatly appreciated.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Flusterstorm is there for combo, control and decks with stifle. Spell pierce is better vs weird stuff like MUD, enchantress or sometimes its better in the mirror. Flusterstorms or pierces are staying the SB vs UR delver so thats an issue.
Wear/tear is really narrow. We are often bringing it against decks that only have 1-2 targets for it, which isnt the best. EE or CJ do its job, but can also hit creatures or planeswalkers in a pinch. I agree that CJ is too slow for UR delver, but basically anything slow than UR its good against. Also, against UR having 2 BEBs helps since they can hit vortex as well as creatures, bolts or REBs.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
So what do you do against a turn one needle? ponder for wear/Tear?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
decan
So what do you do against a turn one needle? ponder for wear/Tear?
Against UR? Yeah look for W/T or EE, or just not care. Unless you have a bad hand that relied on top, its not a huge deal. They are down a card and didn't play a turn 1 threat so things are not that bad. Spell pierce does not make the situation much better. Unless you are on the play AND they don't have daze, the needle is still resolving.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
My plan usually involves casting Terminus, Jace, and Entreat the Angels at some point.
People put too much stock in Top. It's an amazing card, but our deck is very reasonable without it. If it got banned I'd probably play 4 Jaces and Vendilion Clique, but continue playing this sweet deck, minus the CounterTop package. If you never draw a Top, you should still be winning the game a large amount of the time.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
YamiJoey
My plan usually involves casting Terminus, Jace, and Entreat the Angels at some point.
People put too much stock in Top. It's an amazing card, but our deck is very reasonable without it. If it got banned I'd probably play 4 Jaces and Vendilion Clique, but continue playing this sweet deck, minus the CounterTop package. If you never draw a Top, you should still be winning the game a large amount of the time.
I think you are outright delusional.
Top is the single most important card in this deck and one of the biggest reasons to play philipps list imo is how it can manage without it / find it faster.
If your argument is that it is not needed with active jace I must point out that if jace can be considered "active" we pretty much have won unless it is mirror where it is possible to still lose.
Not many other decks can power through miracles having jace "active", and I'd say the second untap with him seals the deal and we can safely say he is active. If not the first one.
I'm very much of the opinion that a T1 needle on top is one of the most inconvincing openings we have to deal with and I'm actively trying to fit w/t , ee & cj in postboard even before I've seen "targets".
I expect people to have bitterblossoms, needles, vortex, their own counterbalances, chokes or sylvan libraries in the sb.
If they have none, I can be content with having an awkward removal spell in my deck and risking having to shuffle away another card.
Edit: just realized my opinion propably reflects my testing here, which is mostly on modo.
Miracles is present there and people have to respect the deck there so "hate" is somewhat prevalent.
Maybe in an american meta it is better to not expect a sideboard geared towards beating miracles?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
deviant
I think you are outright delusional.
Top is the single most important card in this deck and one of the biggest reasons to play philipps list imo is how it can manage without it / find it faster.
Feels like there's misunderstanding going on. There isn't much debate on how important SDT helps Miracle to operate. The only debatable part is when you play SDT and your opponent puts counter on the stack targeting SDT, how much do you want your SDT to resolve? Do you spend resource to fight over it?
That question depends on your life total, your board presence, the rest of your hand, and what turn is this.
As to Wear//Tear, there're plenty of targets in the SB games, it's not narrow at all. The only debatable part is instant speed removal vs sorcery speed removal. To play CJ or EE at sorcery speed, it is not ideal against DnT and Lands, since they run full ports.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I think it's more that he thinks you should run answers for hate for top. I don't think you should and am willing to ignore Null Rod if that's the only target for something like Spell Pierce or Wear/Tear.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Feels like there's misunderstanding going on. There isn't much debate on how important SDT helps Miracle to operate. The only debatable part is when you play SDT and your opponent puts counter on the stack targeting SDT, how much do you want your SDT to resolve? Do you spend resource to fight over it?
That question depends on your life total, your board presence, the rest of your hand, and what turn is this.
Well that was never the question i asked. A needled Top is so much worse than a fow'd Top since all of your copies are dead.
Well most of the time on turn one UR delver will play a threat or Ponder. On turn two they are much more likely to play a needle after they pondered. Now your Spell Pierce is an answer (not just on the play). A possible daze isnt too bad since its tempo loss and card loss. I just feel unsafe with one wear in sideboard games against UR.
On another note. I played against an ascendancy player recently and every turn he tried to figure out for a minute or so if he could go off. Long story short. we ended 1:1 and didnt even start game 3. Which is probably since its a new deck. I find it really difficult to tell a combo player to play faster since they usually have a turn or two when they need a little more time to decide if they can go all in but are much faster in between. This is especially true because i dont have any experience with combo decks. Any advice how to handle this? For example should I count to 30 silently and say something after the third time?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Julian23
To be fair, Raphael Levy pioneered 4 Ponder in Miracles at GP Strasburg 2013. Even though the rest of his list still looks somewhat wacky. :wink:
By which you mean that's the first time you heard of it. It's Ponder. It's an extremely obvious card to try out. In general, any time you hear about somebody creating a deck or a build, all you can really be sure of is that guy wasn't the first one to try it out. This entire idea of "so and so invented that deck" is delusional; that's just not how deckbuilding works.
