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The Burn matchup isn't great, SFM into Batterskull or not. Your Miracles matchup is better. If you want good games against Burn, you basically need Timely Reinforcements.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
I cut the Chalices from Depths because you want to have STP and DRS. You don't NEED them, but you WANT them.
-Matt
Its worth noting with equipoise the batterskull itself never phases back in with the token. If you play it prepare for lots of judge calls because most players are unfamiliar with how phasing actually works.
I actually have questioned that before. The wording of Equipoise means that the Batterskull phases out before the germ, and based on deep rulings the 'skull will phase back in. If Equipoise phased out the token first then yes, the 'skull would be gone forever.
Essentially you want to do everything in your power to hit something other then batterskull during the artifact step whether its haveing the same number in play or selecting another target. Then during the creature phase of the card select the germ all enchamtments and equipment phase with it via indirect phasing then never receive the return trigger and stay phased out. Unless something has changed...
Timely reinforcements and Sylvan Library have some really nice looking synergy while shoring up burn. I could see that becoming a real card.
My thinking is that by controlling your life total you basically turn it into a "Draw two cards, lose two life, get three tokens" card.
Considering it has application in burn and fair MUs; maybe it deserves some brainstorming; especially next to Bob/Thoughtseize, Library.
My main issue with it is it's always a "come from behind" sort of card, meaning you have to get behind to use it. Library can control the first "get behind half" but the second half seems much more difficult to get moving in a proactive deck.
As far as the come from behind aspect, I really doubt we would have to put any effort in to make Timely gain life. Burn's gonna have us on a low life total already. Gaining the tokens shouldn't be too difficult. They tend to bolt the first life-gain guy (DRS, Scooze, a Stoneforge threatening a Jitte), and I tend to trade off my early creatures when I can to preserve my life total.
Coming from behind is my main strategy in everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
-Matt
I know it doesn't help the thread, but I laughed. A lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
This is my "final" draft for Eternal Weekend:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Dark Confidant
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Lingering Souls
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sword of Fire & Ice
1 Sword of Feast & Famine
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Enlightened Tutor
Thinking about shaving the 4th STP for a 2nd GSZ. I'm feeling less confident recently that we can fight Treasure Cruise decks, we need to have really good draws.
A second GSZ I can get behind. Cutting an StP I cannot. Spot removal is just too necessary. Fortunately, it looks like you missed four lands in your list, which means that you're running twenty-four total. Which is just way more than you need to. Especially when you consider that you're running Green Sun's Zenith, have no way to abuse your lands, and have an exceptionally low curve. One of those can, and should, come out for a Green Sun's Zenith. I would also recommend squeezing in at least one Horizon Canopy on general principle, but that's entirely optional.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Unrelated to the Green Sun's Zenith question, the only other change I see necessary is that I would probably aim to remove one of the equipment. I've always found that more than two in a non-blue deck just has too much potential to sandbag the deck.
-1*Stoneforge Mystic
-1*Equipment
+1*Dark Confidant
+1*???
The only card I'm missing is one Savannah... But thank you for noticing. Trying to do this from memory since I'll be driving to EW at 7 AM and dictating my decklist to someone else in the car, haha
You're right about STP. I had been running 3, went up to 4 instead of a 3rd liliana, thinking cheap targeted removal was important, so it's just the "last card." There are definitely other considerations to cut. Or add, like running a single Zealous in the main to clean up Young Pyro spam (card is good against both STP and Liliana). Cutting equips is not what I want to do, though, often it's a game of attrition until a single Spirit or Dryad carrying a sword gets there.
Honestly, I'm a little disappointed in Teeg's performance vs. Treasure Cruise, and I don't expect to see as much Miracles as we have over the past few months, so I can see putting both in the board and adding a more beefy creature or additional GSZ to the main. Every time I think about adding more GSZ targets, though, I just think of all the times I GSZ for Deathrite.
What about the sideboard? I am expecting the two most popular decks to be UR delver and Elves. Usually there's a third-most-popular deck but even locally (Brooklyn) it's been a field dominated by UR cruise and Elves. The tertiary strategies are BUG and reanimator, with Sneak & Show also on a bit of a decline.
I have yet to beat Elves with this deck (0-5). But the last two times I played against it they ripped the one-of Sage to break Cage for the win, which could just be variance. I hope, at least, because if it happens again I'll tear what remains of my hair out.
Understandable. I got a game loss at the last SCG because I dictated from memory in the car and forgot my Maelstrom Pulse (sadface). Also, you're right. Only one card was missing. I blame lack of food and lack of sleep.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
Anyway, with a twenty-one land count in mind, I would say that adding another Green Sun's Zenith is a necessity. Also, though I do understand why it's at twenty-one, I'm just really uncomfortable with that low of a land count in general and it makes me want to cut an equipment even more.
As far as Teeg, I wouldn't pin preventing Treasure Cruise all on him. He's a one-of that doesn't have indestructible or hexproof. He's a delaying measure only. A Meddling Mage on crack. I wouldn't even bring in or leave in Teeg if the only thing he can hit is Treasure Cruise. It's just too narrow of a usage when you consider all the pain that can be brought in instead. That being said, he's still a powerhouse and you should not remove him from the deck under any circumstances. Miracles is still a top deck, even if you haven't seen much of it, and he's great against Elves and shores up so many holes in so many matchups that could get ugly. You have to accept that, just the same as any other card, he does have the potential to be not as good in certain matchups.
The only problem I have with the sideboard is that Cabal Therapy and Engineered Explosives seem like they could be... different cards? They just seem like the weakest slots. Like, I'm rolling it around in my mind, and I don't see where Engineered Explosives comes in, and I can't see where I would want to board in Therapy over Duress.
Another consideration is Spirit of the Labyrinth. People put this card down all the time, and I feel it's unfair. When they put Spirit of the Labyrinth down, it's because they haven't been able to jam four in a deck and steamroll the meta (no shit). As a one of in the sideboard, it's great. Especially when you can dig it up with Enlightened Tutor. It does do what you need it to. It's a relevant beater. Against Elves, it's a strictly better Chains of Mephistopheles. Against UR Delver, it can be the Silencce of the century as it's not uncommon for them to have a hand devoid of Bolts.
p.s. I'm sorry that I keep editing this and that it's rambly. Work won't stop telling me to get back to work.
Benefits of EE:
-Place it down early against storm. If they go goblins they can't make you discard it (I.E. they won't go goblins.)
-Eats Angels at instant speed (Although unreliable since you have to leave mana open; it is a thing)
-Eats zombies, if you're worried about FKZ then it can also do it at instant speed
-Can be cast through counter-balance as AD #5
-Can get easy 2-for-1s depending on list composition and board state
-Elves..
This typically means it comes in in most fair MUs, Dredge, Miracles, Storm, Elves etc..
It's worse against Pyro tokens and such at the benefit of being much better against token-based combo
EDIT: And great since it plays through thalia, dodges Spell Pierce and Daze naturally, and plays through Chalice/Counterbalance. It's all around good since it hits any kind of permanent, but can be mediocre it taxes you for it. I have, for example, use it to kill nimble mongoose a few times; which is something other SB cards can't do outside of Deluge.
Benefits of Cabal:
-Discard density. You only need one discard card to cast two. You can also get the benefits of (say) DRS before saccing him. (Tap for mana, sac him, cast a 3-drop anyway.)
-2-for-1's
-Tosses to lily while being live
-better against SFM decks
Cabal is definitely way better than Duress (if you're good with it..), but EE is debatable for other things; depending on what MUs he's worried about. That said, I've stopped caring about EE vs. miracles because the theory is stronger than the interaction. I had a situation the other day where Cabal in the grave would've been the difference of winning and losing (Tidehollow revealed the opponent who had been manascrewed had triple plow.) Saccing Sculler mid-game to eat all that removal would've given me the maneuvering to turn that draw into a win. There are endless examples against Storm or such where you'd flash it back the next turn and get massive value.
To his deck.
With 4 SFM: IMO use a BSK. That's the only reason you use 4 SFM. Why? A 2x3 package like mine is more for surviving equip destruction and fetching bullets against decks (SoLaS vs. D&T being the most notable.) It also means I don't care much if they kill my SFM, her value has been used aside from shaving off *maybe* one mana from an equip or making it uncounterable. With 4 you're expecting her to die and you care for some reason; you probably care because she has a tap ability you want to use => BSK.
Also, a 4x2; while it was prevalent before TNN; IMO is a little weak. The fact is, having SFM be an actual squire with nothing to do is bad. Something to note about BSK is that if you did draw all of your equips, that 3rd/4th SFM still has a job, which is help reset BSK.
With all of that out of the way; I should say your list looks like DGA with Decay. You have no fat (BSK, Goyf, KotR) and an awkward GSZ package. IMO; GSZ is at least partially to find Teeg. If you're not going Maverick and swapping a Decay for a QPM and such I feel like you're devaluing the deck by taxing yourself for random "bullets." Scryb feels especially weak.
The way you add GSZ is by removing Discard since GSZ gets you Teeg; meaning you can have similar game against Storm while improving your fair MUs (due to having more access to fat.) What you lose is some Delver game (higher costs, less early game interaction, less decay or plow) and game against other combo. Dropping said decay is why I feel weird about going that direction.
EDIT:
With all of that talk about SFM I should point out that SFM packages of all shapes and sizes have topped; the above is just my theory on why certain compositions should be better. Matt's idea is probably along the lines of "A two drop with nigh-guaranteed card advantage and can hold a sword; what's not to love?" Mine is more of "She's not must-kill until you've started equipping, so I use her to supplement my plan rather than be a big part of it."
But top-8 compositions off the top of my head (scgs and things):
4x2 (UJ, BSK)
2x1 (BSK) (rare, control decks like miracles. I have tried this to mild success once or twice)
4x3 (Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS/BSK/SoFaF) (BSK for D&T, matt runs a second sword, etc..)
2x3 (Jitte, SoFaI, SoLaS) [only know of one guy who's in the mav thread. I'd imagine there are others]
jellydonut: You should read upthread, haha. I've practically been the conductor of the Spirit of the Labyrinth hype train in this deck.
But ultimately I decided I'd rather play Sylvan Library, and they are a nonbo. I am sort of taking a deep breath and doing that for Eternal Weekend since I do have GPTs and the GP to change my mind if the meta is just super soft to Spirit. The one thing I would note is that Elves isn't as soft to spirit as you would think. They have 7-8 ways to ignore it and still gain card/board advantage in a hurry, and while you're sitting there with the Spirit, they just swarm you. Spirit + SoFaF is nice, but takes precious turns to set up.
I wish I had thought to test this configuration:
-2 Liliana of the Veil
-1 Wasteland
-1 Bayou
+2 Knight of the Reliquary
+1 Karakas
+1 Bojuka Bog
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Liliana of the Veil (sideboard)
Neither Knight nor Liliana are very good against Elves, though, and that has been such a thorn in my side it's probably warping my decision making. I board in like 12 cards for it and practically take stuff out at random. However in the UR matchup Knight dodges Bolt, blocks big Swiftspears, and cleans out their GY for treasure cruise.
As for the EE and the Therapy in the board: I think I want an additional sweeping effect due to Elves and Young Pyromancer (hence EE, which also deals with annoyances like Counterbalance and Pithing Needle on DRS/SFM).
Therapy is there because in the Northeast, especially at Eternal Weekend, I respect the presence of storm combo and sneak. It's also not terrible against other SFM decks, Elves, Miracles, even Burn (gives you a chance to take a couple biz spells out of their hand without paying life). It might be wrong, but it is hard for me to not want that safety blanket in a wide open meta like this.
It's non-targeted discard, like Liliana or Hymn, that I find lacking. Liliana is so good against decks that should have some amount of hangover like S&S, Miracles, old Blade builds, Thresh that I still feel like she belongs, but she is sadly ineffective against Delver
Tescrin: You are right about needing some fat, hence my last minute thoughts about Knight. I am going to find room for a Skull in the board as well to board in against decks where I don't want one sword or the other. In game 1, I do believe the CA of a sword hit is worth not having traditional fat.
Can't think too much more right now, gotta go grab my kid from preschool.
You can get by Fatless, but usually such a list would be using BSK as their fat/trump. DGA and D&T are more the style. Something having:
-No TNN, no Goyf, No KotR, no BSK
is basically unheard of. Your list swapping the GSZ team (except Teeg) and (some) SFMs for Goyfs or swapping a sword for BSK seems much more fit to handle the midrange decks/game.
I know what the cards do. It still doesn't justify their existence. Fact of the matter is that Engineered Explosives does something that half a dozen other cards do better, and that you can search it up changes little. Same with Cabal Therapy. Cabal Therapy is a good card, no denying it. Note that I didn't suggest he take it out of the main (though I personally wouldn't prefer it), but it is not inherently a two-for-one as you seem to imply. "But I didn't say!" I don't give a fuck. Reality says it's a zero-for-one more often than it is a two-for-one, and the deck doesn't have an easy method of abuse. Lingering Souls doesn't count. And the only time you're boarding it in is against crap like ANT or Burn. Which happen to be decks where there is no single threat that you can blindly name and assume that you're winning if you hit and you're winning if they don't have it. If it's in the main, fine. It's a good catch-all. If you're boarding it (or its comrades) against any other deck that's not comparable to the two listed, you are doing it wrong. You don't need hordes of Thoughtseizes against your average deck. You need the Pithing Needles and the Zealous Persecutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
maharis, you don't "need" fatties. Fatties are to present a clock and to survive Punishing Fire. Both of which you can do already do admirably. Kind of. Fortunately, the more problematic of the two, Punishing Fire, has been dying out as of late. If you want to add Knight of the Reliquary, do it. Knight of the Reliquary is an absolutely brilliant card. But don't put it in because you "need a fattie". Put it in because Knight of the Reliquary is a good card that does what you need it to do.
Also, don't discount Liliana entirely in terms of Elves. Yes, a 3cc Edict is pretty terrible against Elves. But so is a 1cc Swords to Plowshares in most circumstances. The key to Elves has always been creating a lock on them, and Liliana is a strong component of that lock. Also, also, don't confuse "UR Delver" with "Delver". She's lackluster against UR Delver, specifically Young Pyromancer, but she still kicks a mean dick against Delver in general.
Also, also, also, I knew I was forgetting something in the sideboard. I don't know what Ensnaring Bridge is supposed to be doing, but it should probably be replaced by something that's useful against more than one-ish deck.
EE does several things that no other cards do even if claim to get it; you're just foolishly denying that it has value over other cards depending on the MUs he cares about:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
-Gets through Counterbalance and Chalice <- maybe he cares about this. ZP and friends are useless here (mostly due to the deck archtype)
-Comes down T1 against Storm/Dredge <- maybe he cares about this. ZP and friends are (potentially/likely) useless here
-Is versatile <- ZP can't do much against Jund, Junk, or usually DGA. EE can come in as Decay #5
-It's tutorable <- means he doesn't have to dedicate as many slots to token killers
-It blocks angels as a win condition <- again, if he cares more about Miracles, Dominator of the Format instead of UR Delver, Flavor of the month.
I don't agree it's always the right thing, but your argument is that "Sometimes when it wins the game, you 1-for-0'd yourself; idiot!" which is simply a bad argument. If it wins you the game, it wins you the game. I don't care if I 1-for-0 myself against Dredge and then win nor do I care if I 1-for-0 a bunch of Souls the guy desperately needed. If it wins the game, it wins. Think about the scenario you're describing. Grindy Junk vs. Junk game or some such (souls.) That means we're just CA engines trying to grind the other out. I probably gained some CA earlier from Bob or Library. Wasting a card to shatter board presence is good in many scenarios and you can force a Souls to be cast by simply playing a DRS or having one. They double-cast, boom; it's a 1-for-1 @2 mana vs. 5.
As a guy who used to *Maindeck* 2-3 EEs it's a freaking good card. The most notable 2-for-1's are the SFM for Jitte's; where they play out against your mediocre board and you punish them for it. D&T is extremely vulnerable to it since they run plays like the above, or Vial->Mom->Thalia. Now you, for 3 mana, eat vial + mom and ruin their ability to creep on board.
It's extremely relevant to Token combo, Miracles, and D&T; while being average->mediocre against Gxx decks and Delver. It depends on the MUs you wish to shore up. I removed it because my Delver game was weaker than I wanted and removed it from the side because I wanted more non-kill hate.
Can you keep in mind that cards like Choke are also essentially 1-for-0?
Cabal still 2-for-1s in ways that are important. It's not super often; but again; consider something like:Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
-You Cabal naming infernal; you see they have 2 Rituals, 1 RoFs, an LED, a ponder, and a land
-Next turn; you play any 1-drop, cabal for a 2-for-2 net
It's crucial to point out that you couldn't have done anything there with a TS. They'd still have 8 mana. With Cabal they have 5. If that allows you to survive one more turn and get a Lily softlock on them, hatebears, or whatever; great!
It's more of anti-combo, I'd agree; but things to keep in mind:
-sdematt runs 2 main and I'd wager he's a better player than you
-SFM is a 2-for-1 and thus is a great candidate for Therapy (as you simply trade your useless squire for value if you have other sword carriers/didn't get BSK)
-Sometimes you have to Charm/ZP/Deluge/EE when you'd kill your own stuff; getting value or potential value out of your "going to die anyway" guys is good.
I'd take out TS against SFM decks before Therapy (and probably leave it in) simply because it has a lot of opportunities to hit. Sometimes it's better to turn Bob or DRS into a Thoughtseize instead; especially if you saw a high value hit. Turning DRS into a QPM when the opponent just drew BSK is timely and really handy I'd wager.
It's been awhile since I used therapy's, but when I did they were very high value and reliable. Keep in mind that Therapy has reasonable value against Dredge (exile bridges, hit looting effects)
EDIT: I should point out that every fair deck in recent years with Top 8 appearances (aside from the short lived Grixis Delver, the anti-combo Zombardment that is dead, and the flavor of the month UR Delver) have fat (of which I count TNN, BSK, Goyf, and KotR.)
All of them for *years.* I would trust myriad 100's of Top 8's with tens of thousands of players competing to reveal what's good more than an anecdote of "don't just play fat."
Just because decks often run fatties doesn't mean they must. Junk hasn't won a top eight since it was called Maverick, and Maverick died out for a reason. Why harp "you must have fatties" based on history when history has failed us?Quote:
Originally Posted by tescrin
Top 8s mean a little and a lot. If only 1-2 play it per SCG your chances of getting mucked by variance are huge. If enough people played Junk like they did Miracles you should have better penetrance.
Yes, that is the reason some decks aren't as "good", but the fact of the matter is that Maverick fundamentally got pushed out of the format. If people want to incorporate elements that were part of Maverick into the deck, go for it. Green Sun's Zenith is an amazing card and so is Knight of the Reliquary. But if you shove pieces into the deck because of that one time they were played, you're going to end up with that dead deck and you're going run into the gruesome reasons for its demise. I love Rock. I love Jund. I love all these BG/BW/GW/x shells. But if you want to slug it out ten rounds, you're going to have to sail, relatively speaking, uncharted waters to compensate for the stagnant core.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
Edit: I just did a quick search of Dark Confidant+Abrupt Decay+Swords to Plowshares. The only time that those three in combination have ever placed at a Star City event was two years ago by you. That's not indicative of simply being underplayed.