[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

You have room for non-merfolk? Why are you mixing colors? We already have 4 Wastelands and some number of Caverns/Mutas. RuG is one of the most popular decks and being able to drop TNN counter free is a much more powerful plan than turning on their Stifles/Wastelands. We don't have card filtering like Brainstorm so we can't dig for SFM or swords when we need it. Merfolk as I understand it is about redundant Merfolks that power each up up and smash the blue player. Removing image is a mistake: it can copy any of our merfolk and acts like TNN 4-8 or another set of Lords.

If you absolutely need removal run Dismember.

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I feel as though I must mention that, in his list, he does indeed have "card filtering like Brainstorm", as he is playing with Brainstorm. And it doesn't really make any sense what you're saying, if you're saying that splashing another color turns on the opponent's Wastelands, but then immediately suggest that it's better to play a non-basic like Mutavault and Cavern of Souls. In my experience, the splash is fine since your opponent's Wastelands are generally earmarked for your Mutavaults anyway.

All that being said, I don't think his list is built correctly. Cutting any number of Lord of Atlantises when you still have any Merrow Reejereys in the deck is just not correct since Lord of Atlantis is objectively the better card. Also, not playing with at least some number of Daze is a mistake, since it makes your turn 1 Aether Vials more vulnerable to the enemy's counterspells and is fewer (admittedly weak) counterspells that you have against combo decks, and as soon as they know they don't have to fear Daze, they won't. For the sideboard, if you're already in white, Ethersworn Canonist is the single best anti-storm card ever printed, and is particularly good in a fish-style. It seems to me that you just put a bunch of cards together and haven't actually done much testing, so I'd try to get that done first and figure out why it is that you're losing to certain decks, rather than just putting in a bunch of cards that should be good and calling it a deck. For example, if you figure out which creatures it is that you're losing to, you can have more specific and powerful hate.

How I wish we had one-drop that gave us mana, even colorless.
I've even thougt of adding a couple Tropicals and Noble Hierarch. The point is that we won't be so vunerable to wasteland even though we're splasing.
Also I suppose green gives us some nice cards for the SB. Krosan Grip? Maybe (an easier to cast) Cold-eyed Selkie?
I may be completely wrong.

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Originally Posted by benthetenor

I feel as though I must mention that, in his list, he does indeed have "card filtering like Brainstorm", as he is playing with Brainstorm. And it doesn't really make any sense what you're saying, if you're saying that splashing another color turns on the opponent's Wastelands, but then immediately suggest that it's better to play a non-basic like Mutavault and Cavern of Souls. In my experience, the splash is fine since your opponent's Wastelands are generally earmarked for your Mutavaults anyway.

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My bad, didn't notice the Brainstorms.

As for the Wasteland comment, Wasting a Cavern isn't the same as wasting a dual. Wasting a cavern might set you back in mana count, but having a dual wasted cuts you off from a color. If he really wants to splash he should include a basic Plains to fetch.

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Originally Posted by BVB09

How I wish we had one-drop that gave us mana, even colorless.
I've even thougt of adding a couple Tropicals and Noble Hierarch. The point is that we won't be so vunerable to wasteland even though we're splasing.
Also I suppose green gives us some nice cards for the SB. Krosan Grip? Maybe (an easier to cast) Cold-eyed Selkie?
I may be completely wrong.

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Isn't that what Aether Vial does?

I think adding a color is the last thing that Merfolk wants to do, from a loam/wasteland player, I would love to be able to waste you into oblivion.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Isn't that what Aether Vial does?

I think adding a color is the last thing that Merfolk wants to do, from a loam/wasteland player, I would love to be able to waste you into oblivion.

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I agree. You want to maximize the number of lords and not durddle too much. You should be stalling the player a bit, dropping things to ensure your merfolk land, and then smash face with powered up Merfolk lords.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Isn't that what Aether Vial does?

I think adding a color is the last thing that Merfolk wants to do, from a loam/wasteland player, I would love to be able to waste you into oblivion.

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Yes, you're problably right, but Noble Hierarch would bring him into play 2 turns before Vial does. But yes, probably not worth adding a color.
Against non-blue decks TNN makes the difference, I always ask my opponents if TNN was a big threat and I always get the same answer.
I'm convinced he has to be a 4-of, but i don't think it fits in the actual configuration of the deck.
That 1UU in the cost is really problematic...

I didn't post on merfolks thread to many posts but accuse me posting list without testing is a big harassment for me - so please stop. I'm experience deckbuilder (Maverick since 2011 is my child in big part for example.

So lets answer for your doubts:

1. Splash or not to splash - Merfolks played already a lot with many splashes from Black splash (Dark Cofidant), Green (rather clunky imo but also had some success - mostly Goyfs), Red (Bolts, Grim Lavamancers), and white (mostly StP, SFM and SB options)

I pick up W splash just bacause SFM and Equips is probably best option with TNN), more over it also opens for SB options - answer vs Enchantments/Artifacts (Simple disenchants) or mention upper Ethersworn Canonist which is very strong specially with active vial.

I'm not a big fun about Image, I'm admitting it - just because mostly only best answer to clone are Silvergill which brings real card advantage - Merfolks can run already a lot of lords (more then it needed mostly - so coping another lord is not so great since there are some effects which can just kill it - I would just run more lords) - problem is card advantage and answers vs problematic permanents (creatures, artifacts, enchantments) - mostly removal.

Here are the problems:
- Turn 1 Delver with a lot of removal in hand from RUG
- Turn 1 Mother of Runes in Maverick
- Turn 1 Deathrite Shaman with a lot of removal/Goyfs in hand
- Turn 1 Lackey
- Turn 2 Dark Cofidant with stream of removal
- Turn 2 SFM

Swords to plowshares is the best removal - it resolve those, but there are some MU where removal is almost dead (Miracles, Combo), that's why I'm choose SFM equips which can actually works - Jitte and SoFI both can be used to kill those threads, and as mention upper - works great with TNN.

2. Card filtering - Brainstorm, Fetches, seeking for answer

My first lists didn't contain brainstorms - mostly there is not time (rather resources) to cast it in first 3 turns, but everything changes in late game, when opponent drawn well, hand answer vs any almost any creature, you need gas. Drawing lands in turn 3+ is mostly dead sentence for merfolks - brainstorm fix it.
Saying that Stifles are completely dead vs merfolks is a lie - you running wastelands, you running Silvergill and Vial - there is enough activated abilities which can change game state when they didn't resolve in time (for example in respond to l.bolt on one of your lords). Fetchlands are needed to reshuffle dead cards back to deck. Talking about dead cards..

3. Cards which was cut - why ?

Daze - Almost all good players and their moms know that merfolks playing daze - its really good card, but its very it has very short expiration date - turn 3-4 its dead, if not on play its dead turn 2-3 (specially with hands without vial). Before deathrite shaman additional mana had only elves, lands, bant varations, maverick, now also controls have access to it - Deathblade for example, or Team America - I found its just too many times useless.

Phantasmal Image - this was very hard decision, but because reasons which I wrote above I cut it. Lets list all things which can simple kill it:
-a jitte counter
-Scryb Ranger ability
-Qurion Ranger ability
-Maze of Ith
-any removal - even lava dart
-any Grim lavamancer activation
-Merrow Rejeerey
there is a lot of other more unique cards which can be faced in tier 2-3 decks..

There was good reason to use it as removal vs legendary creatures (like elesh norn) - but legend rule is no more, you can't use it in S&T since creatures aren't yet in play (so no legal choose in example opposite Emrakul), playing it after is also pointless.


Standstills - This is more debatable since standstill has its power in proper meta - actually turn 1 plays and uncounterable removal (AD) hid standstill waiting for better times - when meta rotate to more combo MU they will be back again.

Lord of Atlantis vs Merror Rejeerey

It's actually my choose since I made analysis about curve in deck:
1CMC 8 (Vials, Cursecatchers) - I didn't count Brainstorms as a turn 1 play - its mostly turn 3+ play, unless you mulligan to oblivion and desperately needs lands/gas on first turns or answer in sort of FoW vs combo.
2CMC 15 (LoA, SFM, Silvergills, Masters, 1 jitte)
3CMC 8 (Merrow, TNN, SOFI)

Like you see 2CMC is overextended -Spell Snare, Engineered Explosives will be a 2+ for 1 - or worst, more over not drawing a vial and resolved CB can also be painful, but that is only first reason.

Second is useful of both lords. Let see them:
LoA - is a pump and islandwalk - which is very good for UU, but there is also second side of the moon - mirror - pumping opponent creatures is very bad, I faced enough mirrors (mostly to TNN hype) to admit its the worst lord in mirror - its only good when you are ahead, and its very very bad when you are back.

Merrow has very useful ability which some fresh players forgot - it can tap/untap any other permanents - which can be used very very well, from fast empting your hand and swarming board on your side to tapping problematic blokers/permanents.

Last important thing is manacost in color requirement - Merrow require only single U which can be huge with your Mutavault.


Now some answers to direct questions:

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As for the Wasteland comment, Wasting a Cavern isn't the same as wasting a dual. Wasting a cavern might set you back in mana count, but having a dual wasted cuts you off from a color. If he really wants to splash he should include a basic Plains to fetch.

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Wasting a cavern mean you loses land, same with dual - that is, not less or more - difference between losing a cavern / dual is very dependent on situation - it can be even more devastating (for example CB in play) so I wouldn't judge that its less painless.

Putting basic plains is probably the worst advice which I read on those 7 posts. Did you even analysis manacosts on cards which are in deck, specially double required costs ? Do you know why RUG doesn't run basics ? I don't have time to explain it - just please - think before posting.

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I think adding a color is the last thing that Merfolk wants to do, from a loam/wasteland player, I would love to be able to waste you into oblivion.

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Please look how many fetchlands you have in list, now read how many basics you have in list - your argument is invalid - simple vs aggro loam you seek basics, and fetch tundra when you need it.

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I agree. You want to maximize the number of lords and not durddle too much. You should be stalling the player a bit, dropping things to ensure your merfolk land, and then smash face with powered up Merfolk lords.

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I mostly agree - its true - but, two years ago. Now removal and CA is just to cheap, and too good to think you can just win by playing UU bump lord to win. Your lords will be just removed by removal one by one - until your hand will be filled by drawn lands, you need CA and CQ.

At the end, I bump the list with changed SB which was reworked.

3 Lord of Atlantis
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Cursecatcher
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
4 AEther Vial
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Island
4 Force of Will
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Brainstorm
2 Misty Rainforest
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 Swan Song
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 3 Leyline of Sanctity

LoS is still in testing actually it helps a lot vs BUG which became favorable, RIP is probably must have and much better then RoP.

Task to do:
Manabase still working on fetchlands numbers and mutavaults - they should stay but probably not in 4-of. Also Batterskull would be somewhere in 75 since it will help in U/R and Jund MU.

Abrupt Decay is a reason to not play Standstill? They can't Decay the Standstill, are you saying if the Decay your only threat in response to 'Still it could be a liability? I think Standstill belongs in the deck as at least a 3-of.

==' standstill will trigger - not doesn't matter StP or Decay - but you can't counter it so you loses tempo since you draw new guys and need to seat them up. More over Decay can destroy the vial in resp to standstill for example:

Do you resolve standstill when you have vial and opponent resolve shaman - and have 2 mana open ? Correct answer is no - since he decay in resp your vial and game is over, Standstill power was when you could counter thread from drawn cards (or already had answer) - with uncounterable removal which can easy took down your vial its not so impressive (still very strong - but IMO just to situational).

For example how you deal with U/R Delver in mono standard build ? Just take a lost ?

Show me this 'success' with splashes that you claim. Looking over tournament results over the past several years Merfolk repeatedly is MORE successful as Mono-U. You are throwing out hollow claims with no support.

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Originally Posted by JPoJohnson

Show me this 'success' with splashes that you claim. Looking over tournament results over the past several years Merfolk repeatedly is MORE successful as Mono-U. You are throwing out hollow claims with no support.

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Lets not completely dismiss the idea of a splash. You do see more success with Mono blue because the majority who play this deck do use mono-blue instead of splash.

But lets go back to the intended purpose of what the white splash was trying to accomplish.

The majority of the creatures he mentioned are very very low toughness creatures. In this event, a red splash may be more viable than the white. He didn't even mention goyf being a problem. The creatures he mentioned are all DRS, Thalia, and dark confidants. Bolts answer this problem easily.

In the board, we get to bring in smash to smithereens for more damage and artifact hate, which blue has a problem with.

I don't understand wasting 5 card slots for the stoneforge package though becuase this deck is really a kill you fast tempo deck, while sfm package is a slow grinder.

Against Rug：

Could they block your 3-power tnn?…No.

Could you block their 3-power delver?…( ).

Do they have remove spell for your 3-power tnn?…No.

Do you have remove spell for their 3-power delver?…( ) .

What should be filled in the blankets?

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Originally Posted by Tokugawa

Against Rug：

Could they block your 3-power tnn?…No.

Could you block their 3-power delver?…( ).

Do they have remove spell for your 3-power tnn?…No.

Do you have remove spell for their 3-power delver?…( ) .

What should be filled in the blankets?

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I suggested bolt.

If i spashed white if would be for StP more than SFM and package. White also brings us good SB options: Rest in Peace and Disenchant are really good.
But is that better than Bolt and Smash to Smitherns? I don't know. Also Grim lavamancer could be included.
I agree Daze is getting worse and worse in this deck.it's only good with vial and for 3-4. If that's not the case you probably don't want to get one.

@KobeBryan - Red splash is very nice - having additional reach is always good, but RiP sb is just so good - turn off goyfs, shamans, lavamancers, mangoose is very important.

SFM package give us not bad late game (CA with Equips/SFM) which red doesn't offer - it great connects with TNN. Lifelink will have more important factor when racing opponent TNN.

I have often said splashing in this deck is terrible, and I think if UWR is a major player moving forward, Stifling your fetches, Wasting your duals, and Dazing your ample amount of 3-drops, it is even worse. Either play 12-13 Islands and blank their stupid hate, or admit Fish is bad in your meta and play something else.

If you want to play equipment with TNN, the UWR thread is easily found. I'm not saying you shouldn't but a discussion of Chandra, Pyromaster shouldn't go in the burn thread.

In Seattle we do not know how to incorporate Geist of St. Trout but we're tryna figure it out. Standstill is in a vacuum the nuts in Merfolk, but it's deeply depressing right now. Stifle isn't a great Merfolk card but it might be worth taking a look at to 'slow' them down enough to the point where Progenifish can take over the game. But then we get fewer lords.

It gives me a headache that the "cut Reej" crowd on this thread might actually have a point, now that Thassa has been surmounted by ... a Magic card. But I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by Fatal

SFM package give us not bad late game (CA with Equips/SFM) which red doesn't offer - it great connects with TNN. Lifelink will have more important factor when racing opponent TNN.

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I think is time to sleeve a couple Llawan for the SB

Fatal:

Problem with splash is mostly about already weak mana base. Most hands without two islands are risky even with Vial. On draw, non-blue deck can Thoughtseize your Vial, and blue deck can daze/fow them. Cutting Daze hurts here.
There are many, many hands you have to mulligan if you don't have basics. Even if this single Wasteland/Stifle doesn't cut you off UU for game, it delays Reejery or Nemesis for one or more turns.
Your build is absolutely Vial depended. You need mana to activate SFM, to equip Jitte and SOFAI, activate Mutavault, all while manabase can be disrupted. Maybe you should cut some Wastelands ? Against many decks they are rather avarage (Miracles, Show and Tell, ANT) and against others they hurt you more then them (RUG can easily work with 2 lands, Deathrite Shaman lets them use destroyed land two more times). Also, without Daze or Spell Pierce, Wastelands are less powerful in general.

Maybe we're playing this deck differently but in my testing I found Jitte to be too slow against Jund/Junk. After playing Nemesis on turn 3, you need another land to cast and equip Jitte and attack. Casting Image lets you race with them even without another land drop - attack for three, casting Image as another immortal blocker, then attack for 6 next turn while they were unable to attack with Goyf for two turns. Against Delver decks it's much better, as with two Jitte counters you can kill something relevant and Nemesis can't block Delver.
And your version is much weaker against combo in game one. SFM and equipment slows down your goldfish (and can't be pitched to FoW), you don't have daze or spell pierces. You have some great options in SB, but you sacrifice 5 slots for combo, while traditional builds only need about 2. Swords and RIP are of course great in relevant MU, and are clearly better then traditional grave hate and submerge.
And about manabase - I think I'd try it with more fetches and less duals. After all, there are more wastelands then stifles.

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Originally Posted by marcin

Fatal:

Problem with splash is mostly about already weak mana base. Most hands without two islands are risky even with Vial. On draw, non-blue deck can Thoughtseize your Vial, and blue deck can daze/fow them. Cutting Daze hurts here.
There are many, many hands you have to mulligan if you don't have basics. Even if this single Wasteland/Stifle doesn't cut you off UU for game, it delays Reejery or Nemesis for one or more turns.
Your build is absolutely Vial depended. You need mana to activate SFM, to equip Jitte and SOFAI, activate Mutavault, all while manabase can be disrupted. Maybe you should cut some Wastelands ? Against many decks they are rather avarage (Miracles, Show and Tell, ANT) and against others they hurt you more then them (RUG can easily work with 2 lands, Deathrite Shaman lets them use destroyed land two more times). Also, without Daze or Spell Pierce, Wastelands are less powerful in general.

Maybe we're playing this deck differently but in my testing I found Jitte to be too slow against Jund/Junk. After playing Nemesis on turn 3, you need another land to cast and equip Jitte and attack. Casting Image lets you race with them even without another land drop - attack for three, casting Image as another immortal blocker, then attack for 6 next turn while they were unable to attack with Goyf for two turns. Against Delver decks it's much better, as with two Jitte counters you can kill something relevant and Nemesis can't block Delver.
And your version is much weaker against combo in game one. SFM and equipment slows down your goldfish (and can't be pitched to FoW), you don't have daze or spell pierces. You have some great options in SB, but you sacrifice 5 slots for combo, while traditional builds only need about 2. Swords and RIP are of course great in relevant MU, and are clearly better then traditional grave hate and submerge.
And about manabase - I think I'd try it with more fetches and less duals. After all, there are more wastelands then stifles.

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While I'm not a fan of phantasmal image I agree with the points above.

In the past I've played both jitte and stanstill maindeck (I don't remember if simultaneously) and then ditched both to side or even outside the 75. The main reason is that they are cards that don't do nothing on their own while merfolk is all about laying threats and countering a couple of spells before reaching the critical mass of damage on board.

I know that over the years this goal has become more difficult due to the rise of midrange decks with cheap lifelink beaters (SFM + batterskull), recurring removal engines (punishing grove) and uncounterable removals (AD) and I don't want to dismiss other's idea and testings, but I feel that playing SFM to equip true-name nemesis will make merfolk a bad UWR deck. I like very much the removal and grave hate that white offers though, so I'm not dismissing a white splash, but I don't think I would go for SFM package.

withouth Coralhelm this deck has no way to deal with a Moat..