[Deck] Goblins

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Bit of an elephant in the room for me: why aunties hovel?

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

---

I don't want to put words in the OP's mouth, but I'd venture to guess that it's either:

1. a budget concession at one point or another - the list also has Cavern of Souls, which I guess puts it after Innistrad Block yeah, so Blood Crypts being the next best land for the job may have been in high demand;
2. they 'had them lying around' and they are probably at least as playable as most alternatives;
3. there are very few other two-color lands that don't ETB tapped unconditionally, or don't require life in some way.

Speaking from experience a couple years back, it's embarrassing and stupid when your aggro deck (in my case Naya Zoo) gets out-aggroed by something that it shouldn't (...Merfolk) because you ended up paying 6+ life because you had to crack fetchlands for untapped shocklands. Honestly in a dedicated tribal deck that doesn't care about land types (eg, no Kird Apes or lousy 'Domain matters' effects) those Lorwyn lands are fine mana fixers.

They aren't Badlands, but they are far more playable than many other cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GreenShorty

On the 15th I'll be attending a big tournament (200+) here in Brazil (which I believe ScatmanX is also going to play, hehe), so I'm testing a list designed to beat a combo-heavy meta like the one I'm predicting.

---

Your list is good for Rw. I'd find room for at least 1 Tarfire md though, going -1 Piledriver.
Also, if your equipment prediction is right, having a Tuktuk somewhere on the list, probably in place of 3rd Wear/Tear, might be very good.
The rest of the deck/side is fine.

I'll see you there =]

@Barbed Blightning: He only have 1 Badland.

Hi everyone, so I went 4-0 in the local legacy tournament today. We were ten players, and I won about 20 dollars in store credit. So I'm pretty happy about that! Anyway, round 1 I was up against Maverick with a black splash and a natural order package.

R1 GWb Maverick
My opponent kept a one-lander and bricked for a couple of turns, and things went pretty smooth from there. G2 I lost to a big KotR followed up by a NO for Progenitus. I made a misplay here in running out a Krenko when my opponent had a lethal KotR in play and I had a Chieftain. My opponent plowed Chieftain in response and I was forced to chump. I should have cast something else first and played Krenko next turn instead. That way I would have gotten him online even through a StP. I won G3 with a Tarfire on Dryad Arbor and a Wasteland for my opponents Dual though, so I moved on to r2.

R2 UW Miracles
G1 went long, with me playing around Terminus and the Entreat the Angels that he somehow never saw. Late in the game I feared my opponent would simply make a ton of 4/4s and end the game on the spot, but he didn't, and I won.
G2 I played a CotV on 1 t2. After that I played hastelord > Krenko + Piledriver. My opponent had two STPs in hand that he couldn't cast.

R3 I faced merfolks. Not much to say here, it's a very favorable matchup.

R4 Tezzeret

Turns out this is quite a good matchup for goblins, as it doesn't have too much interaction with us. G2 I managed to hit 2 Tezzerets with a blind Cabal Therapy. That also felt pretty sweet. I feel confident about my list, though I'm still trying things out, tweaking the numbers.

I tested the one-of Sparksmith MB, and he was good against the Maverick deck. Other than that I didn't face the decks I wanted to try it against, so not much data here. It's possible it should be a 2nd Tarfire instead.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoboLord

I think it's not fair to make a distinction between "Winstigator lists" and "versions that are winning". In fact WInstigator lists are just as successful as others (ref. to my analysis) - it's only that you won't find them on weekly SCG tourneys (for whatever reason).

---

Sure, I remember the Winstigator lists put up results in your analysis. Has that changed over time? What about recently?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoboLord

Second, I find it wrong to state that CLASSIC lists play inherently more powerful cards than WInstigator lists.

---

You're right. I was really talking about the lists that splash white, because of the power that white brings in shoring up all of the decks bad matchups.

RIP is the best GY hate. Thalia is the best Storm hate. Wear//Tear is the best Disenchant effect. etc. TBH I think that the goblin shell is almost incidental to the deck (which is why I see this as being similar to a D&T deck. just sub in a different engine and the matchups don't change terribly).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GoboLord

I'm advocating the B splash too. Earwig Squad is indeed insane and I think he's got MD potential. I mean: even IF you can#t rip something meaningful he will at least be a freaking 5/3 body for 1B or 2B in 99% of the cases. We should not forget that you technically CAN put him into play via Lackey/Winstigator, although it's not optimal.

Second reason for B splash would be Cabal Therapy. This card is so freaking powerful. However given the decks we have to beat right now I think that Cabal Therapy will only be comin in against combo (Storm and S&T) and maybe SFM.dec.

Third: Perish is such a good SB choice right now. I know I'm repeating myself, but just take a look at the popular creatures. DRS, Goyf, Scavooze, Mongoose...Elves. Also I think that Sudden Demise is strictly worse than Perish (and Pyrokinesis). What I like about Perish is that it doesn't make compromises. Cast it, resolve it, go to attack phase. I don't want to find myself in such awkward situations where you cast it for 3R just to kill DRS, and probably a small Ooze ...and Tarmogoyfs survives. You should realive that you never actually get to kill Tarmogoyf with it (and probably neither 3/3 Mongoose or Scavenging Ooze). It's certainly good against ELves and some other random non-green aggro deck, but I don't think that this superior to Pyrokinesis in those MU, because, you know Pyrokinesis costs 0 mana. And is an instant.

---

I hate to be intellectually lazy like this, but have black lists been putting up results ever? Sorry, I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, but if the list was good, wouldn't it have results? I tried the black splash. What I found was that I'm not nearly good enough as a magic player to play Cabal Therapy well. When Krenko came out all desire I had to run Wort vanished and hasn't been seen since. Earwig Squad was too slow for me at 3 mana (really, our current combo hate feels too slow at 2 mana as well....). And Perish is good. Just not as good as the white splash.

Quote:

---

I cut a 1-of goblin chieftain for skirk prospector, since true-name nemesis might make a big appearance

---

Um, I'm a fan of Prospector over Chiftain, but not because of TNN.

Quote:

---

Would like to hear your thoughts about the list and the sideboard.

---

4 CitR seems like an enormous amount of fear of S&T. You can probably cut at least one of them, since you will be bringing in Tear as well, right?
Chalice of the Void has been good for me, and I think I like it more than your REBs or the 4th CitR.

Other than that, pretty solid deck. I agree with Scatmax, suggestion of a Tarfire over Piledriver #4.

Sneak and show decks are everywhere around here, lol.

I also like cotv a lot, but chalice + thalia seems wrong to me. Wouldn't it be a bit too much against storm/burn etc? Idk, seems that way to me... On the other hand, a 3-3 split between cotv and CitR could hit a bigger chunk of the meta. Yeah, now I'll have to think about that, lol.

Aside from combo (specially those based around SnT), I believe equipments will show up a lot, so that's why prospector + 3 wear/tear were brought in. Doesn't matter if prospector won't stop TNN, as long as he stops every other equiped creature. =P

I'll try to test the 1-of tarfire over a piledriver and see if it works. =)

Thanks for the feedback!

I played a Rb list tonight and went 3-1.

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tarfire

2 Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
3 MWM
2 Warren Weirding

3 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 Tuktuk

3 Earwig Squad

4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Fetch

SB

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter

R1 D&T
2-0
I realized before this tourney (and posted on this forum) that Tuktuk definitely needs to be MD right now. Tuktuk destroyed a Jitte G1 and Earwig stripped the Batterskull. The game went pretty smoothly after that.

R2 Jund
0-2
This continues to be the most atrocious Match Up. G1 I manage to strip his Punishing Fires with Earwig Squad. Then I draw a bunch of lands and get too far behind. There was a moment where Sharpshooter could have gotten me back in it. I forgot that about Shapshooter. He lets you even out the board when you've gotten behind. If only for that he should be included MD. G2 I side in 3 Relic and 1 Surgical Extraction and 1 Extirpate. But he has the Abrupt Decay for my Vial, and I can't draw what I need to get back in it. I Matron for a Krenko (my only real hope at that point) and a Bloodbraid Elf Cascades into a Lilliana to make me discard Krenko. Blech.

R3 Goblin Welder (MUD)
2-1
I mull to 6 G1 and just get crushed! I only play a Waste, then scoop so he doesn't know what I'm on. Mana denial was clutch to help me win G2 and 3. I was able to run the game pretty well through Port and Waste. Pyrokinesis was also a huge plus, since it let me blow-up his huge guys quickly.

R4 Belcher
G1 I mull to 6 on the draw. My hand is Piledriver, Warchief, Ringeader, and 3 lands. Totally keepable. My opponent makes 6 goblins T1 and I do some math and realize I'm not dead. We play it out and a couple MWMs keep me in it, then a Krenko overwhelms the board. For G2 I side in CT and MbT. He shows his hand of 2xBelchers T1 (Land Grant) but doesn't cast either. I rip a CT off the top and strip them. He can't win. He Wishes for Pyroclasm and kills my board. I get back in it.

I learned today that the MD doesn't want or need 3 Earwig Squad. I think 1 is playable MD, but not 3.
Warren Weirding was great all day. It did work against DnT and MUD.
Tuktuk did a lot of work.
Jund is still terrible to play against. Every single card they play just sucks for us. Fuck it. I'll start siding Perish.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jrw1985

I played a Rb list tonight and went 3-1.

4 Lackey
4 Vial
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Tarfire

2 Piledriver
1 Stingscourger
3 MWM
2 Warren Weirding

3 Gempalm
4 Matron
4 Warchief

4 Ringleader
1 Krenko
1 Tuktuk

3 Earwig Squad

4 Waste
4 Port
4 Cavern
3 Mountain
3 Badlands
4 Fetch

SB

3 Cabal Therapy
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pyrokinesis
3 Relic
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
2 Piledriver
1 Sharpshooter

R1 D&T
2-0
I realized before this tourney (and posted on this forum) that Tuktuk definitely needs to be MD right now. Tuktuk destroyed a Jitte G1 and Earwig stripped the Batterskull. The game went pretty smoothly after that.

R2 Jund
0-2
This continues to be the most atrocious Match Up. G1 I manage to strip his Punishing Fires with Earwig Squad. Then I draw a bunch of lands and get too far behind. There was a moment where Sharpshooter could have gotten me back in it. I forgot that about Shapshooter. He lets you even out the board when you've gotten behind. If only for that he should be included MD. G2 I side in 3 Relic and 1 Surgical Extraction and 1 Extirpate. But he has the Abrupt Decay for my Vial, and I can't draw what I need to get back in it. I Matron for a Krenko (my only real hope at that point) and a Bloodbraid Elf Cascades into a Lilliana to make me discard Krenko. Blech.

R3 Goblin Welder (MUD)
2-1
I mull to 6 G1 and just get crushed! I only play a Waste, then scoop so he doesn't know what I'm on. Mana denial was clutch to help me win G2 and 3. I was able to run the game pretty well through Port and Waste. Pyrokinesis was also a huge plus, since it let me blow-up his huge guys quickly.

R4 Belcher
G1 I mull to 6 on the draw. My hand is Piledriver, Warchief, Ringeader, and 3 lands. Totally keepable. My opponent makes 6 goblins T1 and I do some math and realize I'm not dead. We play it out and a couple MWMs keep me in it, then a Krenko overwhelms the board. For G2 I side in CT and MbT. He shows his hand of 2xBelchers T1 (Land Grant) but doesn't cast either. I rip a CT off the top and strip them. He can't win. He Wishes for Pyroclasm and kills my board. I get back in it.

I learned today that the MD doesn't want or need 3 Earwig Squad. I think 1 is playable MD, but not 3.
Warren Weirding was great all day. It did work against DnT and MUD.
Tuktuk did a lot of work.
Jund is still terrible to play against. Every single card they play just sucks for us. Fuck it. I'll start siding Perish.

---

Hehe, nice one versus Belcher there! Conserning Warren Weirding, in what ways do you think it was superior to a tarfire? I'm playing the black splash myself, so naturally, I'm considering the card. :)

Warren Weirding can help in the TNN meta.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sasan

Warren Weirding can help in the TNN meta.

---

That is very true! I'll make sure to get some playtesting in against TNN before my next larger tournament. Has anyone here had any games versus it? What are your conclusions/speculations? I can see it being very good at carrying a Jitte against us. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jrw1985

I played a Rb list tonight and went 3-1.
I learned today that the MD doesn't want or need 3 Earwig Squad. I think 1 is playable MD, but not 3.

---

I found the reports of RB goblins very interesting, since RB doesn't seem to be played much anymore.
The conclusion regarding Earwig Squad I thought was strange though, seems like you did some relevant stuff with it (extracting Pfire, stripping batterskull).
Could you elaborate on it? Wouldn't you also want to maindeck it as preboard hate vs combo?
I think the problem of EWS is that it comes down too late, but running more skirk prospectors could improve it (as its both a turn-two attacker, and sacs itself for an extra mana).

In RB-sideboard, I have good experiences with surgical extraction along with cabal therapy, and I replaced relic with it as there's perish to compensate against goyfs and mongeese.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ingo

I found the reports of RB goblins very interesting, since RB doesn't seem to be played much anymore.
The conclusion regarding Earwig Squad I thought was strange though, seems like you did some relevant stuff with it (extracting Pfire, stripping batterskull).
Could you elaborate on it? Wouldn't you also want to maindeck it as preboard hate vs combo?
I think the problem of EWS is that it comes down too late, but running more skirk prospectors could improve it (as its both a turn-two attacker, and sacs itself for an extra mana).

In RB-sideboard, I have good experiences with surgical extraction along with cabal therapy, and I replaced relic with it as there's perish to compensate against goyfs and mongeese.

---

Surgical Extraction is interesting in combination with Cabal Therapy (and other discard spells as well, for that matter). I'd like to here more opinions on this. Also, what do people think of Extirpate vs Surgical Extraction? How many do you think it is correct to play?

Edit: Besides being able to exile all their copies of a relevant spell, Surgical Extraction would also work very well when your opponent responds to your discard spell with a Brainstorm, hiding their best cards. This really makes me want to try it out. :)

@jrw1985: Congrats on your results =]
I will think about running one tuk tuk MD probably in my flex slot (I was trying pyromancer and next would be mirror entity, but as the field is moving to more artifacts, I guess artifact hate MD is a really smart choice).

In Jund game, wouldnt better, in G1, remove grove of burnwillows instead? You can only remove one card, so if they draw it, it will work anyway, and you dont have gravehate MD, but you have waste MD, taking off their lands + waste/port in this match up seens really good.

I guess in most cases disrupting their mana base really seem solid when you can remove 3 old duals and attack the third with a waste or lock with rishadan port, well, in the early game, because after that, that should not work.

Did you think Earwig Squad is worth at MD? I want to hear your oppinion here too =]

Thankyou!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by magicmerl

I hate to be intellectually lazy like this, but have black lists been putting up results ever? Sorry, I'm not trying to have a go at you or anything, but if the list was good, wouldn't it have results?

---

Several responses apply here.
* First, I remember Cedric Philips placing well with the B splash some time ago (probably more than a year ago).
* Rb Goblins won the first or second SCG tournament in ..uhm...2012 it was. Undefeated, as far as I'm concerned
* I have never piloted a Rb list to a result worse than Top 8.
* see jrw1985's latest tournament report
* see my latest tournament report

I don't know if those are viable arguments though - probably not. The thing is that I have always been looking to improve the deck (mostly with SB choices, which ulimately require splashcolors) and so far the B splash was the one that offered the most powerful cards. That is not to say that splashing W is not good or anything. It's just that from time to time your have to sit back and analyze the metagame and see what it brings. I got the impressions that there is an (1) incredible number of problematic, green creatures (including Elves) and (2) popular (storm)-combo decks. On that basis I was looking for cards to deal with the situation most effectively and Perish and Cabal Therapy are the most effective candidates IMO (I want to point out that recently someone else brought up Cabal Therapy as a solution to diversity of combo decks). Earwig Squad is open to discussion and I admit that part of my reason for playing him was "for the LOLs". However, Cabal Therapy and Perish both are very strong and efficient cards that are well suited for the current metagame requirements.

Another reason is that I don't feel comfortable with Thalia; neither do I think that we need excellent graveyard hate (RIP) right now. So, if I was to splash W it would only be for Wear//Tear. "my" Rb list is trying to make up for the missing Artifact/Enchantment hate with what you called "blinding speed" and ...well...Earwig Squad.

Oh, and about being intellectually lazy: I don't have problems with that. But, I like to invite people to ask their question differently (not for me but for themselves) - or at least ask more and more detailed questions. In addition to asking "has the B splash performing well recently?" you could also ask "has the B splash performing BAD recently?".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sandro95

Surgical Extraction is interesting in combination with Cabal Therapy (and other discard spells as well, for that matter). I'd like to here more opinions on this. Also, what do people think of Extirpate vs Surgical Extraction? How many do you think it is correct to play?

Edit: Besides being able to exile all their copies of a relevant spell, Surgical Extraction would also work very well when your opponent responds to your discard spell with a Brainstorm, hiding their best cards. This really makes me want to try it out. :)

---

The more discard, the better Surgical Extraction (and cabal therapy) gets. But relying on discard too much can be onesided (you can get bypassed by Leyline of Sanctity, or stormcombo can go of by topdecking the right card).
Also, in combo matchups, if you pack too much hate you thin your army and win too slow. SE is the weakest SBcard here, as it needs other discard to be (really) good. Also SE can be kinda winmore, as you preferably use it after a discard spell (and so already disrupting your opponent) and perhaps it should be a goblin instead.

Nevertheless, I am now on 4 CT, 3 SE and 2 Thoughtseize in my board. Discard buys me time to cast Earwig squad (who's in the main).
SE comes in with discard against storm combo, but not against show and tell.
I also run 3 perish. 3 flexcards remain (I am testing 2 Slaughter Games).
I prefer SE above Extirpate because its free, so I can cast goblins and port. But I have to admit that I did not test extirpate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sandro95

Hehe, nice one versus Belcher there! Conserning Warren Weirding, in what ways do you think it was superior to a tarfire? I'm playing the black splash myself, so naturally, I'm considering the card. :)

---

WW is superior to Tarfire because it kills everything. Lackey-WW openers are pretty ridiculous because you know Lackey is connecting t2. You can use Gempalm and Tarfire to clear the small creatures and WW off the big ones.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ingo

The conclusion regarding Earwig Squad I thought was strange though, seems like you did some relevant stuff with it (extracting Pfire, stripping batterskull).
Could you elaborate on it? Wouldn't you also want to maindeck it as preboard hate vs combo?
I think the problem of EWS is that it comes down too late, but running more skirk prospectors could improve it (as its both a turn-two attacker, and sacs itself for an extra mana).

---

EWS was relevant, but it was clunky. I resolved it against DnT both games, and I nearly lost g2 despite it. Against Jund EWS didn't do anything of relevance. It was just an overpriced blocker. And against Belcher it was too slow. So I'm not sticking with running 3 MD. I'll probably cut all three entirely and just accept that Earwig falls into the Danger of Doing Cool Things category. Yes, Jester's Cap is cool. No, it does not win games in Legacy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by max_goblin

@jrw1985: Congrats on your results =]
I will think about running one tuk tuk MD probably in my flex slot (I was trying pyromancer and next would be mirror entity, but as the field is moving to more artifacts, I guess artifact hate MD is a really smart choice).

In Jund game, wouldnt better, in G1, remove grove of burnwillows instead? You can only remove one card, so if they draw it, it will work anyway, and you dont have gravehate MD, but you have waste MD, taking off their lands + waste/port in this match up seens really good.

I guess in most cases disrupting their mana base really seem solid when you can remove 3 old duals and attack the third with a waste or lock with rishadan port, well, in the early game, because after that, that should not work.

Did you think Earwig Squad is worth at MD? I want to hear your oppinion here too =]

Thankyou!

---

Tuktuk did some work and was definitely worth the MD slot.

@Jund you're probably right. I should have stripped the groves. It would not have mattered anyway as I was never in a position to win either of my Jund games.

@Earwig is a little too cute for MD. If your going to run a 5cc card it would be nice if it either won you the game, was great at any stage of the game, or was at least on color. EW didn't really match that criteria. It is cool looking through your opponent's deck though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jrw1985

WW is superior to Tarfire because it kills everything. Lackey-WW openers are pretty ridiculous because you know Lackey is connecting t2. You can use Gempalm and Tarfire to clear the small creatures and WW off the big ones.

---

I agree. What I am pondering is wether or not it is worth it to not be able to kill one-drops right a way, while on the draw, even though you can use WW against cards like Goyf, Mongoose, TNN & GoST. Obviously, there are several other factors at work at here as well (WW requiring black mana for example, or being less effective against elves). Both Warren Weirding and Tarfire are sweet cards though!

On the subject of Surgical Extraction (or Extirpate), I think that Extirpate would be better versus High Tide, because of the split second. High Tide isn't that common though. Versus other storm decks you could also use either of them to disrupt a Past in Flames turn.

I don't think surgical (or extirpate) is where this deck wants to be. Honestly, in none of the matchups I've played in all the decks I've played with extraction effects has this card won me a game--or, for that matter, affected the game that much

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

I don't think surgical (or extirpate) is where this deck wants to be. Honestly, in none of the matchups I've played in all the decks I've played with extraction effects has this card won me a game--or, for that matter, affected the game that much

---

I agree with you. SE and Extirpate are probably best in decks with Snapcasters anyway. The only time Extirpate was ever really good was for stripping Vengevines back when Survival was a card.