Miracle Control

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cipher

Only time I played against it was in a 2-man on MODO. Cuneo was testing it before GP NJ. He would resolve Dig 2-3 times in a game...and then nothing would happen. I think some people just hate counter-top with a passion and are trying to force a Dig-based control deck. Problem is, Dig is only a Divination from a card count perspective, and you won't get anywhere if that's all your deck is doing.

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Dig is not the problem. If you want more straight-out card-advantage you can always jam a couple of additional draw into the deck, e.g. FoF/TC.

My feeling is that the "answers" don't the get the job done, since "a control deck is only as good as its answers". If you look through his videos, it's pretty disappointing how often a card (Treasure Cruise, Stoneforge Mystic,...) that is not supposed to resolve is just doing that.

and this is, in my opinion, where mass-board control (Verdict, Elspeth, Shackles, etc.) chimes in. If spot removal cannot answer Stoneforge Mystic, TNN, Young Pyromancer right away, you have already lost the game.

What you need are two lines of defense:
1) Efficient spot removal
2) mass-board control

If you cannot stop Teasuire Cruise with a shitload of permission, you need proactive plan like Shackles, Elspeth, whatever. I agree that reactive control is a great thing, but tap out control sometimes has some serious advantage.

---Has nothing to do with Miracles, but Miracles vs Golddigger is interesting nevertheless.

Those cards you named are all CA permanents. My point was that he wasn't running enough. Miracles has 4 Top, 4 CB, and 3-4 Jace. These are the cards that pull you ahead, because there's no pure card draw engine efficient enough to keep up with a format based off 1 and 2 CMC spells. You would need something like Standstill or Gush to make it work.

As there seemed to be some confusion about how to board in the mirror I felt like giving you the plans, but I won't really explain it as I've already done so countless times before:

Taking my GP list:

3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
//Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Containment Priest
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Counterspell
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Wear // Tear
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgment
1 Pyroclasm


Unknown Miracles:

-4 Terminus
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Plains

+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Counterspell
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Wear//Tear
+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Council's Judgment

The following plans deviate from the generic one by a few cards only:

Ponder Miracles

-1 Plains

+1 Flusterstorm


Legendary Miracles

-1 Flusterstorm

+1 Blue Elemental Blast


Stoneforge Miracles

-1 Flusterstorm
-1 Plains

+2 Terminus


RIP-Miracles

-1 Flusterstorm
+1 Plains

A few words:
1) Yes, going down to 19-20 lands is the way to go, despite not being for the fain hearted and cowards amongst us. But it's worth it.
2) Keeping removal vs Miracles is super bad, the only exception being Miracles that play Mystic MB and SB like Philipp Braverman, whom I beat in the Quarterfinals at GPNJ. Admittedly, I'd have boarded wrong (generic) if I hadn't had access to his decklist. I couldn't quite stop myself from saying something stupid/funny when I cast a Terminus G2, though. :D
3) Yes, I did overcome my bane from GP Paris that was that I couldn't beat any mirror matches. I havn't lost to Miracles while I was in the US and only to a 4-Ponder list in Prague the week before.
4) Yes, there is a lot of luck involved, when playing the mirror. Don't be discouraged if you lose more than you feel you should, it's hillarious at times how draw dependant this MU actually is.
5) As you brought up Andrew Cuneo and this Gold Digger deck. Tomas Vlcek beat Andrew at GP NJ and I beat one of his fellows during the swiss. We havn't done too much testing but I wouldn't worry too much about it, the deck just isn't good enough. (right now and the way it is built)

Greetings and merry christmas, dear mages of the Miracle.

Merry Christmas from me to all of you as well...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Einherjer

Legendary Miracles

-1 Flusterstorm

+1 Blue Elemental Blast

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I wonder what the BEB is for or why the Flusterstorm would be worse against the Legendary built? Why is an additional Flusterstorm better against the 4 ponder built?

What would be a general approach for my dreaded MU against infect?

On mobile: Did a quick change vs rip miracles.

Fluster is good vs decks with a lot of rebs, cspells, ponders and snapcasters for all of them. Pretty Bad vs rip and Clique, obv. BEB is there for reb only as I feel like Fluster isnt good enough vs 23+ lands. Additionally: Keranos

Sorry for short (mobile) post, more tomorrow;)

Greetings

What do people think of an enlightened tutor package? With Blood Moon and Humility, also possibly thopter sword? It seems very strong, especially because you can enlighten tutor for a top or counterbalance.

It was most successful when RIP/Helm/Field was played, and even then it was only played as a 2-of.

@Ein: Merry Christmas from the US, and thanks for the advice! Never dawned on me to cut plains! Also major kudos, I've been playing your GPNJ 75 for about a month and a half now and it's super solid all around. Thanks for all the testing/writeups and long hours tweaking this deck and how open you are with your thought processes, it really helps people like me who love the deck but don't have enough time to be able to do that.

hi everyone, i've been playing ein's 4 ponder list for the past month and i've been having some trouble with the UWR delver matchup that sideboards into counterbalance and SDT. They board out their delvers and dazes and pretty much become a stoneblade deck with counter top lock.

Ive tried tons of sideboarding plans including boarding out all counterbalances, leaving in counterbalances, boarding out forces, etc. I am so confused and do not know how to attack their sideboard strategy.

Usually the games would play out as a miracles mirror (whoever can establish counter top first) but they have actual threats (SFM and TNN) in addition to treasure cruise which is killer. It seems we play the 1 4 1 game in the beginning trading off who has a balance or top etc. but then they refuel with TC, something miracles cannot do. They also are able to leave in all 4 of their forces because they don't mind losing the card advantage because they refuel with TC.

It seems as even if i establish counter top lock, its either too late because they already have their equipment in their hand or on the field. I do all this work to establish counter top lock, but i still die to the inevitability of batterskull.




these are the two sideboarding plans i've been trying, and neither have been very good, however boarding out the counterbalances seems to be doing a bit better.


Running stock ein's list

sideboard plan with no counterbalances
-4 counterbalance
-2 forces
-1 jace
-2 plows

+1 engineered explosives
+1 council's judgement
+1 flusterstorm
+2 v clique
+1 pyroblast
+1 REB
+1 counterspell
+1 wear//tear


sideboard plan with counterbalances
-4 forces
-1 jace
-1 plow

+1 pyroblast
+1 REB
+1 wear//tear
+1 flusterstorm
+1 engineered explosives
+1 council's judgement

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eyeownyu

hi everyone, i've been playing ein's 4 ponder list for the past month and i've been having some trouble with the UWR delver matchup that sideboards into counterbalance and SDT. They board out their delvers and dazes and pretty much become a stoneblade deck with counter top lock.

Ive tried tons of sideboarding plans including boarding out all counterbalances, leaving in counterbalances, boarding out forces, etc. I am so confused and do not know how to attack their sideboard strategy.

Usually the games would play out as a miracles mirror (whoever can establish counter top first) but they have actual threats (SFM and TNN) in addition to treasure cruise which is killer. It seems we play the 1 4 1 game in the beginning trading off who has a balance or top etc. but then they refuel with TC, something miracles cannot do. They also are able to leave in all 4 of their forces because they don't mind losing the card advantage because they refuel with TC.

It seems as even if i establish counter top lock, its either too late because they already have their equipment in their hand or on the field. I do all this work to establish counter top lock, but i still die to the inevitability of batterskull.

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If they have BS in their hand, but not in play, it's not too late. If it's in play, you have to force your opponent to have a good reason to pick it up. Anyway, I don't see why you would SB out CB. Here's Ein's comments about the WUR whatever in general:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...081#post853081
With that said, it's certainly tough.

@eyeownyou

If your opponent removes all delvers, the first thing to take out is stp. With Council and EE in your Sb, you could also remove 1 terminus in this case.
I would try this :
-4 Stp
-1 Terminus
-1 Jace
-1 Eta
-2 Force

+2 Reb
+1 Council
+1 Ee
+2 Clique
+1 Wear/Tear
+1 Cspell
+1 Fluster

Depending on wether they play wasteland or not, you could remove a plains for Force. I like force here for CB and Cruise. Flusterstorm might be inferior to Force.
But this plan is viable only if they remove 4 Daze 4 Delver :).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eyeownyu

these are the two sideboarding plans i've been trying, and neither have been very good, however boarding out the counterbalances seems to be doing a bit better.

sideboard plan with counterbalances
-4 forces
-1 jace
-1 plow

+1 pyroblast
+1 REB
+1 wear//tear
+1 flusterstorm
+1 engineered explosives
+1 council's judgement

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I've never played his list (hate Ponder in the deck), but I'd personally do something like this if I were you:

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-4 Terminus

+2 Vendilion Clique
+1 Counterspell
+1 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
+1 Council's Judgment
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Wear/Tear

If they have 4 Mystics and 2 True-Names as creature-based threats, I wouldn't leave in possibly dead removal like Terminus when you have an almost equal number of answers in the non-creature permanent hate and Vendilion Cliques. What they're basically doing to you is saying that they want to run your deck, but with more CA and threats in place of defensive spells. Generally, answers are only better than threats in blue mirrors is when the cost of initiation would set the person casting the threats behind. Since our deck doesn't punish that hard, there's no real cost to them to jam creatures that are occupying slots which in your deck are Terminus or Swords. It's like if we're both playing a creatureless control deck and I board in 4 cheap anti-aggro creatures and you leave in 4 Doom Blades. The person that fills the gaps in their deck with proactive spells will win at a higher clip.

Your deck is still better suited for the mirror than theirs is. Would you switch your Snapcasters and Cliques for Mystics and True-Names? Is Treasure Cruise better than Entreat? OK, don't answer the last one, but you get the idea.

is the thought of bringing in BEB for their REB a dumb idea? sure BEB only hits one card in their deck (assuming they board out bolt) but their REB hits jace and counterbalance, both of which are very important in this MU. Worst case it pitches for force or is shuffled away with brainstorm.

So as a new miracle player I find myself never knowing what to counter with my forces. Sure if it's something obvious like a show n tell that's easy but it's the not so much game winning cards I can't decide if they are worth countering. Like against D&T do you force the vial? The t2 stoneforge? Do you hold onto it for cataclysm later in g2&3? Also elves I feel like half the time it doesn't matter what I counter they just go off. Any ideas? Feel like the games I play are all kinda hit or miss with me countering the right and wrong things.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Syntex

So as a new miracle player I find myself never knowing what to counter with my forces. Sure if it's something obvious like a show n tell that's easy but it's the not so much game winning cards I can't decide if they are worth countering. Like against D&T do you force the vial? The t2 stoneforge? Do you hold onto it for cataclysm later in g2&3? Also elves I feel like half the time it doesn't matter what I counter they just go off. Any ideas? Feel like the games I play are all kinda hit or miss with me countering the right and wrong things.


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I've had the same issue. Determining top targets for Force can be hard.
Can we try to establish top-3 Force targets for each matchup where this is hard?
Like so:

Death&Taxes

Top-3 targets for FoW:
1. ...
2. ...
3. ...
(we side out X FoWs / we keep all FoWs.)

We don't care about:
- ...
- ...
- ...

and so on.

Come on guys. A FoW vs. the format guide is a herculean and a sisyphus task at the same time.

If you have solutions to permanents in your deck, you don't NEED to counter them. See: Vial postboard if you have Wear /Tear

I'd suggest playing Miracles, to help with that problem.

Greetings

Force of Will Vs!



Established Decks


Azorious/Jeskai Miracles
G1: Entreat the Angels, Counterbalance, Jace, Countermagic on our copies of these things, Snapcaster Mage (on countermagic), Vendilion Clique
G2: Entreat the Angels, Counterbalance, Jace, Countermagic on our copies of these things, Snapcaster Mage (on countermagic), Vendilion Clique, Baneslayer Angel, Engineered Explosives.

Izzet Delver
G1: {Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear } Depending on your position in the game, Treasure Cruise, Countermagic, Bolts on your Jace.
G2: {Delver of Secrets, Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear } Depending on your position in the game, Treasure Cruise, Countermagic, Bolts on your Jace, {Needle} if you're leaning on a Jace or Top, Sulfuric Vortex.

Jeskai Delver/Stoneblade
G1: Delver of Secrets (Depending on your position in the game), Stoneforge Mystic, True-Name Nemesis, Treasure Cruise, Batterskull, Countermagic, Bolts on your Jace.
G2: Delver of Secrets (Depending on your position in the game), Stoneforge Mystic, True-Name Nemesis, Treasure Cruise, Batterskull, Countermagic, Bolts on your Jace, Meddling Mage, Wear/Tear, Counterbalance.

Elves
G1: Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, Glimpse, Natural Order, Green Sun's (for x=3 when you have Counterbalance, always X = a billion).
G2: Wirewood Symbiote, Craterhoof Behemoth, Glimpse, Natural Order, Green Sun's (for x=3 when you have Counterbalance, always X = a billion), Choke, Null Rod, Library, random crap like Progenitus (can this even be countered?) Ruric Thar, Aetherling.

Sultai Delver
G1: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.
G2: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.




Random Crap


Lands
G1: Anything they cast that isn't mana, I suppose? Chalice, Engi'. Early Explore and Manabond effects can get out of hand. This is almost as easy as Elves so it doesn't matter too much. Lethal Punishing Fires.
G2: Same as G1. Crucible, Revoker, Library.

DnT
G1: Vial, Batterskull, Thalia, Stoneforge, Revoker, Teeg, MANGARA OF CONDOR. (Or you could play well and not let it wreck you.)
G2: Needle, Oblivion Ring, Armageddons.

Temur Delver
G1: Threats, countermagic, Cruise, Stifles, lethal bolts.
G2: Needle, Sulphuric Vortex.

Storm
G1: Early Rituals (T1 Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual), Ad Nauseum, Burning Wish, Tendrils when they have you for exact damage. (Which, by the way, is the best way to win a game of Magic.)
G2: Storm pieces, Xathrid Swarm, Carpet of Flowers,



This is all I can be bothered with for now. That's basically how I play Magic. The above is true for every answer that applies to it. I will hold my StPs against anything not listed here against stuff like Elves, and I will Counterspell almost all of the above with the same prejudice. It very much depends on the situations, your hand at the time, the specific builds both you and your opponent are playing, and even how long they paused after drawing before slamming their card onto the table. You basically have to keep playing Magic until you figure it out, but there's a quick guideline.

I took quick looks at lists from recent posts on threads for the decks I don't know too well, such as RUG Delver and Elves, so there is obviously stuff missing that I could very well Force in two weeks time (BECAUSE LEGACY FNMS ARE A THING NOW.)

I appreciate the writeup and do understand that every game and situation is dependent on your hand and board state but sometimes it feels wrong countering those t1/2 plays.


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It doesn't just feel wrong, it is wrong more often than not.

FoWing Aether Vial is a no-brainer most of the time. Other than that: Don't cast FoW on T1 unless they point a lethal card at you.

I can't remember when I FoWed a T1 creature. And I never ever cast FoW targetting Delver T1, promised. (We've had this discussion, hadn't we? Where some smartass proposed to FoW Delver T1... maybe I'll look it up and see what I had to say back then)

Greetings