[Deck] The Rock

Engineered Plague is very strong against UR Delver. It preemptively kills all their threats other than Swiftspear, which you can just Decay. It's still a flexible wipe if a Pyro has been popping off. It also serves to eliminate Elves and helps against Human-centric lists like DnT.

Plague has some side use against BUG to kill TNN...a little clunky, but is a nice bonus to that sideboard slot.

Alternatively, investigate Ghostly Prison.

Final two slots I'd say CoP:Red or some anti-combo tech like Ethersworn.

Went 0/3 drop at the SCG today :(

Round 1 was against a hateful brew including 4 Sinkhole, 4 Smallpox, 4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana... and splashing blue for 4 Stifle. I got the first game, but 2 and 3 I was struggling for mana, and eventually I get to zero lands, zero creatures, for several turns staring down active Liliana and Deathrite...

Round 2 was against Burn. He killed both my T1 Deathrite Shamans, and proceeded to double Eidolon me both games.

Round 3 was against BUG Delver with True-Name and Cruise. I got him game 1, but 2 and 3 I get Wastelanded pretty hard, and smashed with Goyfs.

The round 1 deck was a spicey one, that Junk happened to line up very poorly against. It felt like I had some bad luck in round 2 and 3, but that's Magic. I found some glee in the fact that not once did I face down an Emrakul, Blood Moon, nor a Pyromancer.

I probably would have stayed just to enjoy some Legacy, but there's a 49ers game starting in 20 minutes.

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Originally Posted by T-101

Went 0/3 drop at the SCG today :(

Round 1 was against a hateful brew including 4 Sinkhole, 4 Smallpox, 4 Wasteland, 4 Liliana... and splashing blue for 4 Stifle. I got the first game, but 2 and 3 I was struggling for mana, and eventually I get to zero lands, zero creatures, for several turns staring down active Liliana and Deathrite...

Round 2 was against Burn. He killed both my T1 Deathrite Shamans, and proceeded to double Eidolon me both games.

Round 3 was against BUG Delver with True-Name and Cruise. I got him game 1, but 2 and 3 I get Wastelanded pretty hard, and smashed with Goyfs.

The round 1 deck was a spicey one, that Junk happened to line up very poorly against. It felt like I had some bad luck in round 2 and 3, but that's Magic. I found some glee in the fact that not once did I face down an Emrakul, Blood Moon, nor a Pyromancer.

I probably would have stayed just to enjoy some Legacy, but there's a 49ers game starting in 20 minutes.

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Don't feel to bad. It happens :/

-Matt

T-101, did you play your knight list from a couple pages back? I really like that build.

Unfortunately your experience seems like par for the course for our deck nowadays. Wonky brew, burn, delver boss hand, thanks for coming.

It was the same list. I still like the list, just didn't pan out today. Between drafting a sweet double Secret Plans deck, and playing in standard on Saturday, I didn't have time to tune at all. Still want that 4th STP, and Libraries.

In other news, I'm weary of Show and Tell and Reanimator at the GP. Elesh Norn is an Uber-Trump against both Delver and Death and Taxes. The new hate bear might be worth boarding.

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Originally Posted by T-101

It was the same list. I still like the list, just didn't pan out today. Between drafting a sweet double Secret Plans deck, and playing in standard on Saturday, I didn't have time to tune at all. Still want that 4th STP, and Libraries.

In other news, I'm weary of Show and Tell and Reanimator at the GP. Elesh Norn is an Uber-Trump against both Delver and Death and Taxes. The new hate bear might be worth boarding.

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I'm totally with you here. I do not think Maverick will be a good call. I kinda need decays + liliana for a wider field.
THe new hate bear is $15 to pre-order. I can't justify that without testing

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Originally Posted by Warden

THe new hate bear is $15 to pre-order. I can't justify that without testing

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Why not? It's a better Gaddock (sans-GSZ) against Elves, it shuts off Dredge, it works against SnT, it works against D&T. So far I'm liking the notion of Containment Priest over (at least one) extra copies of Gaddock in the board simply because you only need one Gaddock for tutoring, and Containment Priest is so much better against the decks Junk needs help with.

Yeah. New bear seems insane. Even in the fair match ups he flashes in to harass a walker or carry a weapon unexpectedly. At worst he's ambush viper?

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

Yeah. New bear seems insane. Even in the fair match ups he flashes in to harass a walker or carry a weapon unexpectedly. At worst he's ambush viper?

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I mean, I'm not as excited as you are about Containment Priest, but I think it can be generally agreed that if you're not putting in a copy for the GP somewhere in the 75, you're probably doing it wrong.

Ambush Vipers are not the worst. It isn't rare to see Snapcaster come down to trick block a sweet creature like Bob, Eidolon, Nettle Sentinel, the random Ichorid, etc.

Like Megadeus said, this guy also has the hidden text, "Can wear equipment." Very tricksy on a Flash guy.

That all adds up to a pretty decent worst case scenario. And the best case scenario is that this guy says "You win the game." There's been few noteworthy new Legacy cards for the last couple sets, so I don't mind going for $10 to $15 Priests.

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Originally Posted by T-101

Ambush Vipers are not the worst. It isn't rare to see Snapcaster come down to trick block a sweet creature like Bob, Eidolon, Nettle Sentinel, the random Ichorid, etc.

Like Megadeus said, this guy also has the hidden text, "Can wear equipment." Very tricksy on a Flash guy.

That all adds up to a pretty decent worst case scenario. And the best case scenario is that this guy says "You win the game." There's been few noteworthy new Legacy cards for the last couple sets, so I don't mind going for $10 to $15 Priests.

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I agree with all this. I am the kind of guy would play a pudding cup if it had flash. Haha I just love getting blue players who are like "derr they can't do anything about what i'm doing nice thoughtseize."

It shores up your S&T, Reanimator, Elves, even D&T if that's an issue. I am a big believer in Flash against Miracles too — say they Terminus on your turn, untap, cast Jace, brainstorm, pass. You flash this guy in and they probably have to fight over it, especially if you have any sort of sword down, otherwise Jace goes to 1 and they have to decide what to do about your creature while you will have mana open on your turn. It's why I love Scryb Ranger. Can't be Pierced or REB'd so it's either a Force + blue card or they have to have UU for counterspell (assuming no CB).

Obviously it does very little in the Delver and Blade matchups, and against Storm as well. So how many you run and where they are in the 75 is a matter of what you expect from a metagame. Oh, if only it gained 3 life when it ETB as well haha.

Went 2-2 this last week. +Rb Burn, +BG brew, -BURG delver, -Dredge..(GAH)

I think Dredge was just too swingy (mull to 3 and a mull to 2 on my part. The first couple hands were garbage. The following became mull for hate.) BURG just had way too much action for a Delver deck. He must've seen 5+ threats and 4+ removal both games.



Burn is becoming a lot easier as I go. I got to fight a Rw version after the tourny and also beat that. Sculler seems to help by simply making their deck inefficient allowing time for the equips + DRS to do work me up to about a 50:50 ratio; way up from my 10:90 or so a couple months ago.

I'll probably nab some priests soon (they'll drop) as my SCGs aren't until Dec. Keep in mind they don't help at all against Storm combos (good or bad), and they don't work well in Maverick or D&T meaning they'll have little they can easily slot into (UWR Delver may run them, we can run them, Miracles will maybe run them.) . Because of these I caution buying expensive ones since they'll also be competing for SB slots with arguably better bears.

I think she complements SFM for reasons others mentioned and complements KotR since he attacks the same decks (S&T, Reanimator, Dredge) but a turn earlier (allowing you stabilization pieces into a critical mass.) I could see it replacing Cage in the side.

I was due for some practice tonight but a recent move has made me pretty busy; so instead I just have theory for people.

I've been a big proponent of SDT (or Library) in general, but I think I'm moving away from them during this season's Combo vs. Delver climax. I could be wrong (hence why I'm gearing up for any testing I can get) but I think I'm moving to this list:

Main Deck:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler

3 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte

3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland


I've been wanting 6 Discard main for combo and Sculler I don't officially count (and works much better next to real discard.)
The Goyfs are back for testing since KotR has felt too slow in my combo MUs (and the MUs have been the wrong ones) and he's definitely weaker for Delver.

I was mostly posting to discuss the possible merits of dropping manipulation if having straight action may be better in a meta of very fast decks.

Played my Hexmage brew to a 3-1 finish last night, good enough for 3rd place. Lost to Patriot Cruise Delver because Treasure Cruise can be absurd.

I'm not sure I like it enough to buy Dark Depths, but the list was fine. I think you want Crop Rotations in the deck, though. You REALLY miss not having manipulation/card draw in that deck via Sylvan or Top. When you do win, you're just usually herp-derping them with a 20/20.

Knight was generally fine, but he was hardly ever "big" unless I was already in control. TNN did becomes an infinite blocker at one point until I could Loam back the combo and push through.

Going to a tournament tomorrow in Seattle. If I end up playing Junk, I'll let you guys know how I did :)

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Played my Hexmage brew to a 3-1 finish last night, good enough for 3rd place. Lost to Patriot Cruise Delver because Treasure Cruise can be absurd.

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Would you mind letting us know the other MUs?

I couldn't tell if any of your post was in response to mine or if it was all report; so I figured I'd reply to the bits that semi-matter to what I've been up to and comment out the stuff that didn't quite fit (given I don't run Depths.)

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm not sure I like it enough to buy Dark Depths, but the list was fine. I think you want Crop Rotations in the deck, though. You REALLY miss not having manipulation/card draw in that deck via Sylvan or Top.

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Again, i think (since I couldn't find your HexDepths list in the last few pages or recent posts) this is a quality my latest list and your HexDepths have in common. I will say, that yesterday's games against combo (2 Matches against Dredge, 4 Games(?) against reanimator, 2 Matches (or maybe 8 games) against S&T) I didn't miss Library/Top. I was happy to keep hands full of action or toss them without thinking "Top may have found me stuff." Now that my list has evolved away from Loam it's much more comfortable to lose the manipulation temporarily.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Knight was generally fine, but he was hardly ever "big" unless I was already in control. TNN did becomes an infinite blocker at one point until I could Loam back the combo and push through.

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Normally this is how it goes. KotR is a finisher, but not really a beater, if that makes sense. KotR's best traits are improving anti-combo in the main and being able to do weird things like outsize Nic Fit, put someone off of threshold, or bounce/beat through Ruric Thar (among other weird things those few utility lands net you.)

Normally KotR can't shine until you get to late game where he quickly gets to an 8/8+. Normally (unless I expect him to be removed soon) I'll calculate whether the opponent is on the same clock if I do land-shinanigans. If it's the same clock I'll grow him to "huge" to get "free" utility. This has been especially effective against Burn since fetching Waste->wasting myself is a +3 for Plow and generally ensures 1 or 2-swing win.

That said, I got to play with both yesterday; and Goyf (while huge) was certainly a disappointment when I fought nothing but decks KotR was helpful against. Since it was practice I was able to swap later and do the same S&T/Dredge MUs; and the difference is reasonable. Dredge is certainly much too fast sometimes so KotR can lag behind; but at least it's something. S&T/Reanimator of course are KotR's forte, and it reinvigorated my appreciation. I definitely think that Bog/Karakas weaken your manabase enough that anything less than 4 KotR is blasphemy. If you're going to beat yourself up like that it just seems like a requirement.

Highlights of yesterday were in the reanimator MUs:
-Goyf boardstalling Elesh Norn and Jin Gitaxious in different games :p
-Keeping Cage Thalia Stuff and not drawing White mana until after Reanimator could S&T a Tyrant. Ugh. Too greedy.
-Nearly losing to reanimator with a double DRS double Lily (preboard) hand since I got a little cocky and let my defenses down T2 and ate a Jin Gitaxious while he entombed an Ashen Rider during Exhume. Sigh. I even saw it coming. Still won though.. so yay?


Thinking of swapping Thalia main again since she combines so well with all of the hand interaction. I had forgotten how much she beats up on Dredge.

EDIT: I should mention that Scullers are impressing me more and more with time. They were key in multiple games with all three decks and their "must remove" status against fair decks is beautiful. T1 discard->T2 Sculler is a great start to almost any MU that didn't start with a combo ready or triple removal (and even then, at least you can mess up their sequencing.)

Some tricks include taking Discard with Sculler since discard becomes dead in the mid-late game.

Thanks for the sideboard tips above, gents… A junk list just placed in Japan, with mire's guile and spirit of the labyrinth main. Also 2 karakas main… Looks interesting.

With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?

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Originally Posted by Goblin Cabdriver

With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?

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In the sideboard? Good as he's ever been. But the fact remains that he's fucking terrible in multiples.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goblin Cabdriver

Thanks for the sideboard tips above, gents… A junk list just placed in Japan, with mire's guile and spirit of the labyrinth main. Also 2 karakas main… Looks interesting.

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I forgot about Guile. Maybe I'll nab some as a way to free up the 2-drop slot without having to invest extra mana. I'd max it at 2 though for sure. I like that it's a cross between some of the advantages of top (1-drop, helps Bob) and some of the advantages of Library (free looking.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goblin Cabdriver

With all the graveyard filling these days, how does jotun grunt look as a beater? Too unpredictable?

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Grunt seems fine; but he's a bit slow for Dredge IMO so has to be supplemented. Same goes for Reanimator. If you're already doing good, he'll lock the board down while providing beats. He's pretty reasonable against Goyf (on paper, never tried it) but since we're not MonoW, Goyf is also good against Goyf :p. He's also pretty much "max 2-of" as Jelly implies.

I'll say he seems very Tailored against the UR Delver deck, simply because they not only want to fill their grave, but have trouble killing him. If he sticks even one turn he pushes out Cruise by about a turn, and if he survives 2 they may never cruise. He's pretty alright with Discard/Lily and I could see him in the main; so long as you treat him like discard and realize you sometimes just have to +1 him away. (D&T come to mind.)

I'd test 1-2 in the main against the MUs where he should shine (UR Delver, Dredge, Jund?) and against MUs where he should be noticably mediocre/bad (D&T, DRS decks, Miracles.) I'd point out his obvious dis-synergy with your own DRS, but it's probably pretty workable.


I should say that I'm trying to get a lot of testing in the next few weeks since there are a pair of NW SCGs coming up.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...val-2014-11-12


Planeswalker (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil

Creature (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf

Sorcery (6)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lingering Souls

Instant (8)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay

Artifact (2)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull

Enchantment (2)
2 Mirri's Guile

Land (23)
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
2 Karakas
60 Cards

Sideboard (15)
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Engineered Plague
3 Duress

-Matt

Seems pretty close to my current dead guy list... Myonly question, in this three color deck, why 2 Karakas? Am I missing something? Like it doesn't seem very well positioned in the current meta. It's not bad, but as a 2 of in a 3 color deck it seems awkward.