Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Random Crap

Storm
G1: Early Rituals (T1 Land, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual), Ad Nauseum, Burning Wish, Tendrils when they have you for exact damage. (Which, by the way, is the best way to win a game of Magic.)
G2: Storm pieces, Xathrid Swarm, Carpet of Flowers

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Disrespecting opposing decks paired with shitty advice. Brilliant.

Xantid depends if you have spot removal left in the deck or the remaining numbers of these, but this one is indeed a critical card. Ad Nauseam is a total no-brainer. I don't know why we even need to mention stuff like this, S&T, or opposing Entreats in the first place. I can not count how many times I bait counters with Rituals/Rites or especially Wishes (if I lacked actual discard) and it bugs me that you advice to do this without mentioning that countering Rituals and Wishes is a situational depending play. I dunno where you ground the Tendrils example. This is so exceptional artificial and stupid that I have never seen or heared of that happening. Carpet of Flowers is bad advice plain and simple. If you have to control two Islands (aka break your fetches) you do this for Counterbalance and if you resolve the enchantment, you are so far ahead that their "Sol Ring" should not be a serious threat. Heck, 40% of cards in Storm decks are mana anyways, so why won't you save the FoW for the critical spells?

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

Sultai Delver
G1: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.
G2: Deathrite Shaman, Countermagic, Treasure Cruise, random 1-ofs like TNN, Library, Walkers.

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I'd qualify this with placing a very high priority on countering Library because it's the only way you'll be able to win a counterwar against them. It's the only one of their cards a BUG player should be fighting back over if the board is even-to-favorable for them. The way to beat BUG with Miracles is to recognize that you're usually the beatdown. If they fill their hand with disruption, especially off of Sylvan Library, you've unlikely to win.

Idk why you have Force of Will G2 vs. Delver decks... Did I miss something?

Indeed, keeping Force of Will in for G2s against Delver decks is pretty iffy. I thought the plan was to bring in more blasts and removal in order to answer their threats with maximum efficiency.

I don't think there's a lot of advice that can be given on Force of Will other than what's already been said. The Force is reserved for things that would either cause me to lose directly, as in Show and Tell; or stuff that would reduce/eliminate the value of the Force in general, like Aether Vial or Sylvan Library. It's not always obvious what spell would cause me to lose the game (and hence should be fought over), but that comes with experience.

A tougher "should I Force this" question might be whether to answer an Island --> Top opening with a Force if one is on the draw. I'm guessing the answer is "no" based purely on the fact that I'm happy whenever my opponents do this to me... and are less equipped to fight the ensuing Counterbalance war.

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I noticed that Reid Duke's list from the Player's Championship didn't contain grave hate of any kind, not even so much as a Containment Priest. Instead it seems to have a large amount of stack control, with a pair of blue blasts in addition to a Flusterstorm and 2 Spell Pierces. Is this an approach that might be exportable to other tournaments and/or different lists, or is it something that might only be expected to do well at the Player's Championship?

There're VERY FEW turn 1 FoW plays, less than the 10 fingers.

1. turn 1 Vial
2. turn 1 doomsday
3. turn 1 silvan library
4. turn 1 entomb
5. turn 1 breakthrough
6. turn 1 chalice for 1
7. turn 1 the ritual that would allow your opponent to cast either Belcher or Empty, since you don't know which one, you cannot assume
8. turn 1 however your opponent tries to put Balustrade Spy into play
9. turn 1 Blood Moon when you don't have a plains

A debatable play would be turn 1 Mana Bond. Turn 1 Dark Confidant is only FoW worthy if you know you have SB-out your StP.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Disrespecting opposing decks paired with shitty advice. Brilliant.

Xantid depends if you have spot removal left in the deck or the remaining numbers of these

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That's weird.

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Originally Posted by Me

The above is true for every answer that applies to it.

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So if your hand is all Countermagic: Counter the Swarm. If you have removal: don't.

I didn't see anyone asking for T1 Force plays, hence why Entreat and Jace were on the lists, and this was a list of everything we could Force. It may be better to pitch them in G2, but we can figure that out by the quality of targets in both G1 and 2. It's very possible it's bad G1, but excellent G2. I have liked Force more and more G2 Vs Sultai Delver, as there are builds out there that are just a tonne of silver bullets in the board, which they can have a load of that just kill us on T2. (Bitterblossom, for example, is a nightmare.) REB is less good against them, as it only really has Delver, Cantrips, and Force as targets. I doubts we want 3 like we do against other decks, and they aren't Red, so BEB can't come in.

When the best decks in the format are Aggressive cards + Countermagic, and CounterTop lock, Spell combos come under random crap. The only people playing Storm are the people who refuse to play anything else, even when it's bad. It may see a good tournament, but a lot will have to change for it to see a good metagame.

All of the Delver decks just have all of their threats listed. If you are in the late game, getting low on life, and both players are running low on resources, Forcing ANY threat is reasonable. You can't guarentee you'll find an answer, and if you do then it can be pointed at the next guy that comes down, until you manage to find a hand that will actually win the game.

In those MU's for G2, I would keep/board Force as follows:

Miracles: Keep.
UR Delver: Board.
UWR Delver:Stoneblade: Board.
Elves: Keep. (At least some.)
Sultai Delver: Board. (But as stated, more tempted to keep some now.)

Lands: Board. (??? It seems like an attrition based game. I've played against it twice and it never felt like a bad MU.)
DnT: I don't know how to beat this deck. I believe I'm 2-2, but also think it should be a good MU, so help.
RUG Delver: Board.
Storm: Keep.

I suppose in trying to be less "Force is a puzzle to be unlocked by your own mind, child", I was way too vague and basically said "Well, everything is Forcable at some point". Hell, I've Forced Brainstorms before now and it be correct.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

I have liked Force more and more G2 Vs Sultai Delver, as there are builds out there that are just a tonne of silver bullets in the board, which they can have a load of that just kill us on T2. (Bitterblossom, for example, is a nightmare.)

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These silver bullets are all artifacts and enchantments that die to Council's Judgment and Disenchant. Liliana (if anyone still runs her) is a better reason for Force, but even then it's a card that just gets so awful when your hand is being attacked.

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Originally Posted by YamiJoey

The only people playing Storm are the people who refuse to play anything else, even when it's bad. It may see a good tournament, but a lot will have to change for it to see a good metagame.

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Storm is good right now. Almost caught up to Miracles as the second most successful archetype on MODO:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

So it seems playing ponders in miracles (online) is indeed a terrible idea, the card is bugged (for now) and might shuffle when you click "NO".

Finally we can close the case.

/sarcasm, as most people here don't seem to pick any of it up.

As I was reading Ein's primer (on scg), I saw that he (or you if you're reading^^) remove all 4 Force of Will vs Stifle.decks. Don't you want to keep some vs Rug Delver for instance ?
I feel like the most difficult task in the mu is to establish our manabase, the late game beeing secured by terminus and counterbalance.

What would your answer be if you didn't have access to flusterstorm in the MU ? Would you still remove all 4 Forces ?

Thanks !

I'm most assuredly not an expert, but I bet we can figure this out anyway.

Without Flusterstorms in the sideboard :frown: it's going to be a little tougher to assemble a functioning manabase against Stifle.dec. I venture to guess that if Flusterstorm is unavailable, it's probably Spell Pierce holding court as substitute? Quite possibly not: reading through the epic wellspring of Miracles knowledge that is the 3-part Primer indicates quite a few uses of Flusterstorm for which Spell Pierce wouldn't be suited despite the apparent similarity of the two cards.

On the other hand, consider the position of the Delver player on the other side of the table. Stifle isn't just for fetch lands, it's quite useful against Miracle triggers also. Miracles packs 6 basics and 5 duals in the typical 21 land Ponder manabase, with no variant running any less than this. Holding up Stifle mana might not have the desired effect: a couple of those non-fetchlands might appear and start pushing Miracles out of tax-counter range. It's possible to just play around Stifle a nontrivial percentage of the time. Other times it's the upcoming Terminus trigger that's important and the fetchland is the target I wanted them to hit. Then, of course, come the occasions wherein the RUG player dutifully pretends to have a Stifle at the ready when he or she does not.

I don't know how important it is to prepare for the Stifle.dec at this time, the card seems to be less played than I've ever seen before. Nonetheless, I'm not taking my chances. The other day I sat down across from Shardless BUG, sideboarded like an idiot, and was duly served. It's hard to tell a guy who just defeated me that he's not supposed to be playing those cards anymore.

EDIT: on second thought, I just lost a bunch of games to Stifle: don't listen to me.

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Originally Posted by Cipher

These silver bullets are all artifacts and enchantments that die to Council's Judgment and Disenchant. Liliana (if anyone still runs her) is a better reason for Force, but even then it's a card that just gets so awful when your hand is being attacked.



Storm is good right now. Almost caught up to Miracles as the second most successful archetype on MODO:

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy#online

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Storm is only good because of UR Delver being the nr. 1 deck online. Storm has a very good MU against UR Delver.

Edit: @Stifle People often missplay against it. You are the control deck, if they don't pressure you, there is not a single reason to do anything besides playing a land. Only use your fetchland when you absolutely have to, because you need to respond to a threat etc. Playing turn 1 land into keeping Stifle mana is a huge tempo loss for a stifle.dec if you don't use your fetchland and just pass the turn, because they now have to leave 1 mana open to play stifle. So just playing the land and passing is the best play if you fear/ know they have stifle.

That being said, with the rise of storm, what's the verdict on maindecking spell pierce? I feel like that card is really good in the current meta, but doesn't really help us at times in longer games.

Edit: Right. Because we get to run REB. Duh.

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Originally Posted by exallium

That being said, with the rise of storm, what's the verdict on maindecking spell pierce? I feel like that card is really good in the current meta, but doesn't really help us at times in longer games.

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Is it good against UR Delver? I don't think so. I wouldn't run that over REB, but I think Joe fit both in his List.

Spell Pierce is so mediocre. I prefer Spell Snare to it and I think that Snare is better than Pierce versus Storm since they can't play around it and will never blind Cabal Therapy for it. Plus Snare has the upside of being good against Young Pyro, since fighting him on the stack is far better than fighting him on the battlefield.

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Originally Posted by Zllig

Spell Pierce is so mediocre. I prefer Spell Snare to it and I think that Snare is better than Pierce versus Storm since they can't play around it and will never blind Cabal Therapy for it. Plus Snare has the upside of being good against Young Pyro, since fighting him on the stack is far better than fighting him on the battlefield.

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Here're some reasons Pierce > Snare:
1. Stops early Liliana
2. Stops Entomb/Reanimate
3. Stops Doomsday
4. Interacts against early Blood Moon (remember to take account into Spirit Guide)
5. Interacts against turn 1 non 2-CMC-ritual into Belcher

If you want a hard stopper against the CMC 2 cycle (SFM, YP, Snapcaster, Goyf, DC, and Chalice at 1) and occasional combo breaker (Burning Wish/Reset/Exhume/Infernal Tutor), then SS can be better than Pierce.

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Here're some reasons Pierce > Snare:
1. Stops early Liliana
2. Stops Entomb/Reanimate
3. Stops Doomsday
4. Interacts against early Blood Moon (remember to take account into Spirit Guide)
5. Interacts against turn 1 non 2-CMC-ritual into Belcher

If you want a hard stopper against the CMC 2 cycle (SFM, YP, Snapcaster, Goyf, DC, and Chalice at 1) and occasional combo breaker (Burning Wish/Reset/Exhume/Infernal Tutor), then SS can be better than Pierce.

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1. Liliana is certainly not seeing as much play these days, but I guess that's reasonable argument. In the last event I played in the top 16 included 4 Lili's in a mono black pox deck (a completely unplayable deck), so my fear of Liliana is pretty nonexistent.
2. Sure, but Reanimator also plays the same amount (or more) 2 drop reanimate spells.
3. Not even a playable deck
4. How are you ever worried about Blood Moon in a deck with ~8 basics? I can kind of see the issue with this, but I'd much rather have a hard counter for Painter/Revoker.
5. "Interacts with Belcher when they don't have one of their 8 two mana rituals, ~4 Burning Wish, or 4 Manamorphose!" I guess it does!

Pierce is better if you are trying to force the issue on something early game, or if you expect red blasts. That said, this isn't the deck.

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Originally Posted by Zllig

3. Not even a playable deck

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I don't care how true it is, don't say it. :(

I was running a pair of Spell Snares not too long ago, and they were fine. They have more targets now than back when, so I'd consider running it back.

what about Propaganda for next meta? it will be so full of 1/1 tokens and DnT that 1 Propaganda can be GG as well as a Moat.

What do you think about it? Philipp?

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Originally Posted by Poron

what about Propaganda for next meta? it will be so full of 1/1 tokens and DnT that 1 Propaganda can be GG as well as a Moat.

What do you think about it? Philipp?

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If you really want to play a card like Propaganda, play Ghostly Prison instead. That way you don't get your shit blown out by Red Blast.