[Deck] 12 Post

I'm currently tackling two versions of bant post. One without GSZ and one with GSZ. The one without GSZ initially didn't include terminus. i experimented with [[personal tutor]] to bring up SNT alongside [[Eladamri's Call]] for fetching all creatures including elesh instead of using GSZ, then i realized it could be used to bring up some serious white sorceries not just snt. there are other considerations besides terminus, but terminus seems to be the best choice. currently i'm quite happy with the results. Still tweaking the list in terms of numbers and sideboard choices, but i have a good feeling about this bant list. the addition of two extra tutors helps a lot in a topless build. Currently I'm running two eladamri's and two personal tutors + 2 terminus. I'm especially intrigued about eladamri's call. It won me many games. Usually i just beat ppl down with repeated titans in other cases elesh was required or ulamog /emrakul (even caryatid for mana fixing - i had gaddock in for a long time, but i moved him to the board, though i feel he could still be main boarded since it's a blow out game 1 against storm - comes down a bit slower than in the GSZ version) if you have no access to eye or it gets destroyed. Being an instant that allows you to fetch on their EOT is amazing... the color requirements are big, but with 3x noble heirarch + 2x sylvan caryatid i feel confident. Still the occasional (usually self inflicted) mana screw does happen. I also ran iona, but i cut her in the latest builds since she's much harder to hard cast than elesh and your new kozilek plays a similar role. elesh on the other hand is brutal against elves and stuff like BladewingX pointed out earlier, and can still be hard cast. i ran birds of paradise b4 changing to noble hierarch. Still i feel that birds might be a better choice since we don't really benefit that much from exalted and it doesn't have flying ( sometimes i used birds to block flyers in a pinch).
oh and i also think i like silence currently in the side very spicy against combo and also good to protect against counter magic - its a mini cavern/temporal mastery all in one. any other spicy white cards you would recommend?
hehe just had a guy on affinity spill his guts over how terminus should be banned. in any case heres the list i was discussing - any brewing suggestions are welcome

3 [MM2:151] Noble Hierarch
1 [ONS:316] Flooded Strand
3 [ZEN:220] Misty Rainforest
4 [MMQ:61] Brainstorm
2 [LEA:288] Savannah
4 [USG:96] Show and Tell
4 [FNMP:120] Cloudpost
1 [ZEN:246] Forest
1 [LEG:248] Karakas
2 [3ED:303] Tropical Island
1 [MM2:16] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 [TSP:281] Vesuva
2 [PLS:106] Eladamri's Call
2 [THS:180] Sylvan Caryatid
1 [ICE:331] Glacial Chasm
2 [ONS:328] Windswept Heath
1 [WWK:132] Bojuka Bog
1 [ROE:4] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [WWK:136] Eye of Ugin
4 [M12:188] Primeval Titan
2 [EMA:187] Sylvan Library
1 [OGW:4] Kozilek, the Great Distortion
1 [ZEN:234] Island
2 [MM3:26] Terminus
1 [BFZ:15] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 [SOM:227] Glimmerpost
3 [DDR:7] Crop Rotation
2 [M10:68] Ponder
1 [LEB:285] Tundra
2 [POR:65] Personal Tutor

SB: 2 [MM2:99] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ALA:10] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 [ARB:75] Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 [CMD:46] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [RTR:35] Cyclonic Rift
SB: 1 [ARB:8] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [LRW:248] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 [RTR:18] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [DKA:24] Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 2 [TSP:202] Krosan Grip
SB: 1 [M11:30] Silence

I've been working on a spicy build that's UG, but I'm testing out some black cards in the board:

Creatures
3 primeval titan
1 ulamog, the ceaseless hunger
1 emrakul the promised end
1 emrakul the aeons torn
1 kozilek the great distortion

Sorceries
3 show and tell
4 ponder

Instants
2 intuition
4 brainstorm
4 crop rotation

Enchantments
2 omniscience

Artefacts
2 pithing needle
2 amulet of vigor
1 candelabra

Lands
4 cloud post
4 glimmerpost
4 misty rainforest
4 tropical island
2 vesuva
1 thespian stage
1 dark depths
1 maze of ith
1 boseiju
1 cavern of souls
1 eye of ugin
1 glacial chasm
1 urborg tomb of yawgmoth
1 forest
1 island
1 bojuka bog
1 karakas
1 tabernacle

Sideboard
2 grafdiggers cage
2 noxious revival
1 flusterstorm
1 stifle
1 spellskite
1 cyclonic rift
1 mirage mirror
1 tragic lesson
1 beast within
2 krosan grip
1 notion thief
1 devastation tide

Omniscience has been amazing in the deck and enables the deck to leave the early game a lot sooner than usual, it also enables the infinite turns loop with emrakul the aeons torn.

My sideboard is in flux at the moment, I'm trying to find cards that are useful against the fast combo decks (like storm).

I find that the BR reanimator matchup is extremely favoured in my way as I haven't lost a game against it yet.

I am tempted to try a cpuple of root maze and maybe an arcane laboratory in the side to beat storm, etc.

EDIT: I may try a 1 of underground sea instead of the 4th tropical. I have a lot of cards I'm interested in trying in the sideboard (approx 20 cards). Has anyone tried epiphany at the drownyard or sudden reclamation?

Mengucci plays UG Post.

Nice to see some content for this deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aedrew

Mengucci plays UG Post.

Nice to see some content for this deck.

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Funny, I was testing mikokoro in my bant list and then i see this thing. I guess post decks nowadays should be called [country] post pile...

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Originally Posted by MechTactical

Funny, I was testing mikokoro in my bant list and then i see this thing. I guess post decks nowadays should be called [country] post pile...

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How has Mikokoro worked for you? Do you see any application for it outside of semi-countering Infernal Tutor?

Played c/g post last night:


Turbo Depths: Win (2-0): Made a token both games and killed them with it. Kinda new Turbo Depth player and mirage mirror is so silly.

Lands: Win (2-1): Close games. Mirage Mirror cause so many strange interactions. Copied exploration a few turns to dump hand.

Lands: Loss (1-2): Drew the krosan grip for needle to double wasteland me. Felt bad.

U/B Sneak/Show: Win (2-1): Sideboard tech sandwurm converegence both games, lol. Lost 1st game, boarded it in, mulled for it and both games he went for it and I had the token generator and his deck wasnt playing any way to bounce it lol, foolish deck building on his part.

All star of the night, pithing needle. Run 3, want 4. Might go to 61 cards for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aedrew

How has Mikokoro worked for you? Do you see any application for it outside of semi-countering Infernal Tutor?

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Outside of triggering miracles on the opponents turn it was potentially useful when you are in top deck mode or digging for a threat. Enables crop to draw a card. Nothing too fancy though. I guess that we can afford giving our foe extra cards mid-late game most of the time. Honestly, I didn't think about infernal tutor interaction until seeing the video and haven’t drawn it in that situation. I’m guessing that croping for it in response to infernal makes it even better since the opponent certainly won’t except it, but that’s a t3 play which is kinda late for storm. Not sure if it’s worth running outside of bant though. If you’re looking for more land utility it’s worth testing i guess?

Introduction
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I'd like to share some deckbuilding ideas and a small tournament report. For a while now, I have played UG Post with counter magic in the sideboard for combo decks. I have never beat Storm with this configuration. Game 1, I accept that I will not win against a good hand, but I couldn't even take advantage if they stumble as the clock was just to slow and there was no disruption. Even post board, things were hard as they just wait for discard to make sure the coast is clear and sculpt a hand I can't beat. At the same time, I found Eldrazi Stompy hard to beat even though the match-up did not seem too bad on paper. Chalice on 1 and TKS made it hard to get something together even though my threats should just outclass them. Furthermore, in general the deck sometimes would just do nothing as I would get one half of the combo or cantrip into air or have the interaction not line up (e.g. bounce spell with no targets, Ugin versus Eldrazi or Ugin stranded with Show and Tell, Show and Tell plus an Eldrazi but they have Karakas, Candle without 2+ mana lands).

After Brainstorm and Map, I've primarily used Ponder and Sylvan Library to try for more consistency. Library was often disappointing. I'd either spend my turn casting it only to have it Abrupt Decayed before I got the first activation, face Leovold, or simply not have much life to spend on it or be stuck without a shuffle effect. Ponder has been good, but I think it is much less powerful in this deck than in others because it often takes your only colored source and thus often your whole turn is just pondering. Other decks that use Ponder have additional advantage as it works as a way to set up a Delver flip as well as a way to flip it or a way to set up Miracles. Furthermore, these decks can usually Ponder into a 1-mana card they can play that turn.

The concerns of having some game one chance versus combo, having more generally applicable interactions, and improving consistency by finding a use for dead cards leads me to want Force of Will in the main deck. This leads me to want to increase the blue count to at least 20. Four Brainstorm is easy. Four Show and Tell is reasonable. Some number of Perilous Voyage or your preferred bounce spell makes sense. I chose 3. Now, 4 Ponder also seems natural. I tried a build with 4 Ponder, 4 Force of Will, no Maps, and did okay but felt like I lost games against slower fair decks that I should be winning and though combo was improved, it was still easy to lose. However, getting to experience a game 1 win versus TES when the opponent went all in and I had Force plus blue card felt great and getting the game 1 gave me room to take the match 2-1. I think some number of Ponder may be good, but because of the above, I decided to try a different blue cantrip: Cloud of Faeries.

Cloud of Faeries provides instant-speed, basically uncounterable, card draw for colorless mana, which this deck often has excess of. It is a blue card that pitches to Force.
And, it is often as good as a Candelabra and rarely worse than one. Candle is an extremely powerful card, but is often a 1 mana do nothing without 2+ mana lands or other utility lands. It gets trapped behind Chalice and is vulnerable to Abrupt Decay and K Command. Cloud of Faeries provides the ramp of Candle with the needed blueness and is basically never dead. Least importantly, it is a creature, which can chump or beat down as needed and leaves behind Edict fodder when ramping into a real threat.

To make room for Force of Will and Cloud of Faeries, I ended up cutting an Ugin, old Kozilek, 2 Candles, maindeck EE, and the card selections slots I had given to some extra maps and Ponders. Cloud replaces Candle. EE and Ugin always felt more like sideboard cards. I found that I often have too many uncastable threats rather than too few. I also cut Glacial Chasm for a fifth blue fetch to support the increase in blue cards. Maybe I just am not skilled with Chasm, but it often felt like not enough to come back from behind and is real bad in the opening hand. This left me wanting one more blue card. I went with Clique because it is a hate bear that provides disruption plus clock versus combo, blue, can fix my hand, and fits the new Faerie theme.

Moving Force of Will to the main freed up a lot of sidebaord slots and let me add 2 Dismembers for Gurmag and Eldrazi, the EE from the maindeck, and some additional countermagic in Swan Song. I went with Swan Song instead of the fourth Flusterstorm partially to play around Cabal Therapy a bit and partly because of Animate Dead. I have been running two Revokers for a while and I think they are needed versus Storm (for LED or Petal plus beats) and have proven useful versus Sneak Attack. I had one slot left and used it for Void Winnower. This could really be anything, but the thought was I want to be able to up my threat count if needed. Winnower is an 11/9 that outclasses most creatures, comes out for one less than Ulamog, can't be chumped by tokens, can't be Karakased, and shuts off Life from the Loam and all the Storm win conditions. The problem with these types of cards is they often seem good, but really resolving any 8+ CMC spell should seem good when it happens. I think this could easily be Sandwurm Convergence,
new Emrakul, Kozilek, or some more cheap interaction.

I played something like this a little in online practice rooms and it felt good enough to keep testing. So I brought the following list to a small local weekly:

Faerie Post or 11-Post, 8-Cloud

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger

4 Show and Tell
4 Cloud of Faeries

4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
2 Expedition Map

4 Force of Will
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Perilous Voyage
3 Pithing Needle


Sideboard

1 Void Winnower
3 Flusterstorm
1 Swan Song
2 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale


Round 1 v. Grixis Delver
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Game 1
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On the draw, we both keep 7. Deathrite and Insectile Abberation start eating at my life total. I get a Needle on DRS and Wasteland to slow down the assault. At 7 life, I get a Primeval Titan into play and crawl back with chained Glimmer Posts, begin careful to stay out of range of crackback plus bolt.

Game 2
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I shave on Show and Tell, Force of Will, and Cloud of Faeries and bring in Tab, Explosives, Dismember, and Flusterstorm. In retrospect, I should have also cut some Crop Rotations as I never felt like I could safely cast them through counter magic. I mull to 5 due to either too many dead cards or no colored mana. Opponent plays a good tempo game and I am never able to get much going and die to Young Pyro and friends. I made one mistake about timing my Perilous Voyages. I first cast one on Pyro in my main while he was tapped out, which I think was correct but then I followed the same play pattern later and did it in my main while opponent had mana open. Opponent Brainstormed into Daze and fetch then untapped with full mana and a sculpted hand. This should have been done on upkeep and I might have come back, as I had EE to clean up the tokens.

Game 3
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We both keep 7. Opponent plays draw go up to 3 mana and I do nothing after my turn one Map. I wait to fetch and crack because I saw Stifle last game. Finally, opponent taps out to cast True-Name Nemesis and I take my opportunity, fetching twice and cracking Map for Cavern. I untap, play Cavern choosing Giant and cast my first Titan. Opponent gets rid of it with an Edict, but I have a second in my hand. At some point, Titan attack trigger earns a Stifle, which I Flusterstorm. Opponent Forces with pitch the original spell and pays for a copy. Pretty nice exchange for a Titan trigger. I draw a third Titan as we enter turns and opponent offers the concession.

1-0

Round 2 v. Pox
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Game 1
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On the draw, I go to 5 while opponent keeps 6. After getting Wastelanded once, I resolve Needle and catch myself about to name Wasteland and instead name Liliana of the Veil. This was crucial, as opponent played the Planeswalker out anyway the next turn. Rack is slowly killing me. I am pretty dead with low resources but have a Emrakul in hand, so hoping to top deck Show and Tell and get lucky. It doesn't happen.

Game 2
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I shave Force of Will, Show and Tell, Cloud of Faeries. Cut Bog. Bring in Revokers, Void Winnower, Flusterstorm, Swan Song, Krosan Grip. I keep 7 while opponent mulls to 5. Opponent is stuck on one land for a long time and casts a few things off of Dark Rituals but I get Revoker on Liliana plus hard cast Ulamog, taking all his mana and clean up.

Game 3
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I keep a soft 7 while opponent mulls to 6. I have turn 1 needle and a Show and Tell with nothing to show but opponent turn 1 Thoughtseizes and takes Needle. I get a bit lucky and draw fetches and basics to get up to 3 mana around Wasteland and manage to draw Void Winnower. Show and tell in Winnower to his Swamp and it does some work. Prevents his suspended Nihilith from being cast, traps Hymn in his hand, and protects itself from Small Pox. Not to mention a 2-turn clock. He doesn't draw Liliana or Innocent Blood and Winnower takes it.

2-0

Round 3 v. Reanimator Storm
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Game 1
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I am on the play but mull to 5 while opponent keeps 7. My hand is 3 Show and Tell, Vesuva, and Misty. I scry Brainstorm to the top and Vesuva my Misty in order to Brainstorm and fetch to improve my hand. At some point opponent bins a Griselbrand and hardcasts a Magus of the Mind, but I don't see much of what opponent is on and I am not familiar with this deck. Soon, I end-of-turn Crop Rotation for third Cloudpost into Cloud of Faeries to make 15 mana to hard cast Emrakul (had exactly 15 even without the Faeries if I cracked a fetch but this way I have Edict fodder I guess plus mana to spare).

Game 2
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I board in Surgicals, Revokers, Flusterstorms, Swan Song, Winnower. I Board out some Needles and Show and Tell and a few Titans. We both keep 7. I get a Needle on Griselbrand and then Clique opponent in his draw step. I see and take a Shallow Grave, but opponent had redundent reanimation spell to go off that turn with a Magus of the Mind for 7+1 free cards into a lethal Tendrils. I might have taken this game if I got Bog with my Map instead of Cloudpost when a Magus was in the yard, but I was banking on Clique to prevent him from going off for one turn.

Game 3
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I realize this version of reanimator is softer to Needle and better against Perilous Voyage, so I board out Voyages and bring some needles back. I keep a good 7 with Clique and Revoker and opponent mulls to 6. This game I just have it all: Needle on Magus, Clique, Revoker on LED, Flusterstorm, Surgical, Crop Rotation for Bog. I prevent him from doing anything while Clique and Revoker beat down.

3-0 for first place


Closing Thoughts
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Having Force of Will main came into play against Delver, where it it would have let me force a Show and Tell through game 1, though it didn't come to that. I was able to hardcast Force to stop a crazy Pox enchantment. It also let me hold up protection while deploying threats versus Reanimator. Cloud of Faeries felt good as a glue card for the deck. It never was key but also never seemed like a bad draw as I could pitch to Force or just cycle on 2 mana without fear of Daze. I also had a couple hands with Cloud of Faeries that let me blank Duress and Collective Brutality. Having only 6 Show and Tell targets in the main felt fine and I never found myself with dead Show and Tells or no threat for long. Needle was good in all matches, but three Needles felt fine.

Possible new card
Stabilization Ball 2
Artifact
If a land would produce two or more mana, it produces nothing instead.
Spells cost {1} more to cast for each other spell cast that turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caw_86

Possible new card
Stabilization Ball 2
Artifact
If a land would produce two or more mana, it produces nothing instead.
Spells cost {1} more to cast for each other spell cast that turn.

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The translation I saw had that those lands tap for colourless and the anti storm is based on that player's storm count.

There's a 5-0 bant post list published. Congrats to Mikre.

What are the 4 Trinisphere for? Storm? It never comes down before turn 2, it seems like it would be difficult to get into play. Are there any other matchups it comes in for?

I'm assuming Leylines come in against Depths and Storm. Anything else?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aedrew

There's a 5-0 bant post list published. Congrats to Mikre.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by nimkee

What are the 4 Trinisphere for? Storm? It never comes down before turn 2, it seems like it would be difficult to get into play. Are there any other matchups it comes in for?

I'm assuming Leylines come in against Depths and Storm. Anything else?

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i tested portend in my bant quest. Though at the end of the day i think I dislike the full set. Instead I ran at least a split with ponder. Ponder can draw you action while portend is only better for setting miracles on the next upkeep or cast portend on your opponent, which didn’t seem to be critical in most games. On the other hand you can top-lock the opponent in corner cases.

I took the mikre list out for a spin. the list feels well balanced. My bant lists were always "more white" orianted in terms of SB and MB card choices, which may not be the way to build bant. The artifact package adds the much needed consistency. While I would never consider the same SB choices a match against reanimator proved to me that the choices are legit. i won reanimator with needles, leyline and trini. felt weird being without surgical but i guess this setting can compensate for that.

I've been tuning this list the last couple of weeks, and went 3-0 with it last night. I'll write a shortish tourney report, ask if you are curious on the sideboarding. I wasn't too ambitious with the write up.

My goals with the deck, aside from the typical 12 post infinite turns, is to have better all around matchups. Specifically, I want to improve combo, chalice, and blood moon matchups.

My ideal plan against combo is t1 therapy, into flash back and then a t3 tks, or crop rotate into bog. It worked pretty well last night. Chaining quick TKS's is also surprisingly effective.

Lands - 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Bojuka Bog

1 Wastes
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Windswept Heath
1 Swamp
2 Bayou
3 Forest
1 Llanowar Wastes - important for providing all 3 colors
1 Dryad Arbor - easily accessible Therapy fodder

Creatures - 15
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Ramunap Excavator
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Oracle of Mul Daya - so so performer
4 ThoughtKnot Seer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

Spells - 20
2 Mox Diamond
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Expedition Map
2 Crop Rotation

3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Warping Wail
1 Mirage Mirror - so so performer
2 Sylvan Library
1 Pernicious Deed
2 Abrupt Decay

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle --> could be another spyglass
1 Sorcerer's Spyglass
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge (didn't use tonight)
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (didn't use tonight)
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Warping Wail
1 Crop Rotation
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Choke
1 Maelstrom Pulse

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I went 3-0. 2-0 against rb reanimator, 2-0 against splinter twin stompy, and 2-1 against dark miracles.

I went on the play against reanimator and therapied away a reanimate. He stripped my titan, and then later exhumed a griselbrand to my titan. I fetched up Karakas, and a post. He managed to stick two Chancellors into play, putting him at 3 (animate dead plus reanimate). I bounced griselbrand, and attacked with the titan, fetching up a glimmer and cloudpost. He double blocks, we trade. I have enough to gsz for another titan into glimmer and eye, I’m at 22 and just win from there.

Game 2 I keep a 7 with therapy, warping wail, and surgical extraction. He leads into faithless, ditching an exhume and something else. I lead with diamond, therapy, and a glimmerpost. I strip his reanimate. He faithless’s into a griselbrand, which I just extract because I want to see what is in his hand. I untap and keep up warping wail mana while playing lands until he goes to reanimate something else. From there I play tracker into an explorer, flash back therapy, make clues and clean up.

Match 2 vs Splinter Twin stompy…I therapied him hitting force of will, decayed his bloodmoon, warping wailed his dude, then cleaned up with TKS. He played a t2 chalice but it didn't do anything. Game two was longer, but I had a variety of answers for his 3 blood moons, bridge, and chalice, along with warping wail for his dude again. Playing through chalice and blood moon wasn't a problem at all, which was one of the things I was aiming for with this deck.

Match 3 vs Dark miracles was longer and grindy. I won off a resolved sylvan game 1. Game 2 I got hammered with double fow into ashiok into mentor and then jace. It was ugly. The black splash was for ashiok and vindicate. He also sided in a rather cheeky noxious revival for his miracles.

Game 3 started off with double therapy off of a mox diamond. I took a force of will, and then a ponder in a one land hand keep with Jace, Entreat, Terminus, and snapcaster I think. It was a long game but I ended up pulling it out. WW countered a temporal mastery. He topdecked repeated force of wills, countering a titan, and then a GSZ for a titan. I slammed a titan the following turn. Good luck vs great luck.

He had to choose between vindicating an active titan or an eye. He chose the titan, and I won a few turns later.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nimkee

I've been tuning this list the last couple of weeks, and went 3-0 with it last night. I'll write a shortish tourney report, ask if you are curious on the sideboarding. I wasn't too ambitious with the write up.

My goals with the deck, aside from the typical 12 post infinite turns, is to have better all around matchups. Specifically, I want to improve combo, chalice, and blood moon matchups.

My ideal plan against combo is t1 therapy, into flash back and then a t3 tks, or crop rotate into bog. It worked pretty well last night. Chaining quick TKS's is also surprisingly effective.

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Nice list, some similarities to my lists but still very different in other ways - you are still focussing mostly on the 12-post plan with 3 Primeval Titans, while i haven't played more than 1 in a while and i reduced the number of Posts to the bare minimum to have more colored mana and room for Dark Dephts. And you went Allin on the TKS plan, while i tested 1 or 2 in the early stages of the deck and eventually dropped it: From my experience, it's just too slow in our deck - it's very hard to play on t2, and on t3 it's often too late. Eldrazi Stompy decks can reliably cast it on t2 most of the time, that one turn matters a lot.

After i convinced myself to try my deck without Mox Diamonds (see my last Post in the NicFit thread) i just got reminded how important they ultimately are (my winrate dropped a lot without them and the deck felt really awkward sometimes with very slow starts, i brought them back and i'm happy again), and i definitely like them in your deck too.

I replaced my Oracle with a Courser a while ago, and never looked back: The lifegain can be very relevant and is much more important than the extra land, and Courser doesn't die to Bolt.

I see you are playing 2x Choke in the sideboard. I am thinking about that option, since i had more problems against Miracles than i like (just going by the numbers Miracles would be my worst matchup on Magic Online, which is kinda ridiculous) and this seems like a good sideboard card that has enough other applications.
Question: How good is Choke and in what matchups? I often see it in Maverick sideboards, but they have Wastelands, we don't. It's probably fine to bring in against Delver and every fair blue deck, but is it relevant enough against combo decks like Storm and SnT? And is it generally good enough, since most fair blue decks are playing Deathrite Shaman? A different idea would be Carpet of Flowers for the opposite effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Nice list, some similarities to my lists but still very different in other ways - you are still focussing mostly on the 12-post plan with 3 Primeval Titans, while i haven't played more than 1 in a while and i reduced the number of Posts to the bare minimum to have more colored mana and room for Dark Dephts. And you went Allin on the TKS plan, while i tested 1 or 2 in the early stages of the deck and eventually dropped it: From my experience, it's just too slow in our deck - it's very hard to play on t2, and on t3 it's often too late. Eldrazi Stompy decks can reliably cast it on t2 most of the time, that one turn matters a lot.

After i convinced myself to try my deck without Mox Diamonds (see my last Post in the NicFit thread) i just got reminded how important they ultimately are (my winrate dropped a lot without them and the deck felt really awkward sometimes with very slow starts, i brought them back and i'm happy again), and i definitely like them in your deck too.

I replaced my Oracle with a Courser a while ago, and never looked back: The lifegain can be very relevant and is much more important than the extra land, and Courser doesn't die to Bolt.

I see you are playing 2x Choke in the sideboard. I am thinking about that option, since i had more problems against Miracles than i like (just going by the numbers Miracles would be my worst matchup on Magic Online, which is kinda ridiculous) and this seems like a good sideboard card that has enough other applications.
Question: How good is Choke and in what matchups? I often see it in Maverick sideboards, but they have Wastelands, we don't. It's probably fine to bring in against Delver and every fair blue deck, but is it relevant enough against combo decks like Storm and SnT? And is it generally good enough, since most fair blue decks are playing Deathrite Shaman? A different idea would be Carpet of Flowers for the opposite effect.

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I had a lot of similar lines of thought. Instead of reducing the posts I took out the DD, and then added the Llanowar for a 3 in one mana fixer. T2 TKS doesn't happen very often, but a single therapy in T1 or 2 often isn't enough to wrap up combo matches. Some density of therapy, wail, tks, and crop rotation seems to do well. I occasionally can search up and cast TKS on a stalled board for immediate blocker / hand clear before going to something bigger. TKS has also been real useful for simply clearing out counter magic / removal / snapcasters / Jace, and following up with a therapy is usually game over. They were good against Miracles.

The mox diamonds are very important for consistency. I 100% snagged that from your list about 70 some pages back! I am iffy on the Oracle and had wondered about using Courser many times. I worry about the double green. That's the main thing, especially in the early turns. That life gain would have won me a couple of games in the past. Do you ever have problems casting him? Is your mana-base similar to mine?

Choke is good when it lands. I wouldn't side it in against SnT, and I am less sure against Storm. I think this version has better all around matchups than the other post lists I've played, but because of that Choke helps push it over the edge a bit with the blue decks. 4 therapy, 2 warping wail, 4 tks, chains, and 3 crop rotations for bog is already a fair bit of hate. Ratchet bomb might be worth it too I suppose for those zero drops, or to hold up for empty if nothing else. Storm needs repeated kicks once they are down. That deck can crawl back from some unlikely spots.

Multiple titans has been fairly important for me. Having at least 2 has won me several games. I was a bit torn on cavern but opted for zero to help out with consistency in my mana base.

What list are you working with now?

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Originally Posted by nimkee

I had a lot of similar lines of thought. Instead of reducing the posts I took out the DD, and then added the Llanowar for a 3 in one mana fixer. T2 TKS doesn't happen very often, but a single therapy in T1 or 2 often isn't enough to wrap up combo matches. Some density of therapy, wail, tks, and crop rotation seems to do well. I occasionally can search up and cast TKS on a stalled board for immediate blocker / hand clear before going to something bigger. TKS has also been real useful for simply clearing out counter magic / removal / snapcasters / Jace, and following up with a therapy is usually game over. They were good against Miracles.

The mox diamonds are very important for consistency. I 100% snagged that from your list about 70 some pages back! I am iffy on the Oracle and had wondered about using Courser many times. I worry about the double green. That's the main thing, especially in the early turns. That life gain would have won me a couple of games in the past. Do you ever have problems casting him? Is your mana-base similar to mine?

Choke is good when it lands. I wouldn't side it in against SnT, and I am less sure against Storm. I think this version has better all around matchups than the other post lists I've played, but because of that Choke helps push it over the edge a bit with the blue decks. 4 therapy, 2 warping wail, 4 tks, chains, and 3 crop rotations for bog is already a fair bit of hate. Ratchet bomb might be worth it too I suppose for those zero drops, or to hold up for empty if nothing else. Storm needs repeated kicks once they are down. That deck can crawl back from some unlikely spots.

Multiple titans has been fairly important for me. Having at least 2 has won me several games. I was a bit torn on cavern but opted for zero to help out with consistency in my mana base.

What list are you working with now?

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Interesting - i win so many games with DD, i wouldn't ever cut it - but i just watched Ehhh stream my deck and he plays it differently and doesn't use DD that much, so i guess it's mostly about the playstyle. Instead of TKS i have the white splash for Teeg against combo, that just wins the game against Storm on the spot and is very useful against Elves too (and has some use against SnT).

My manabase is similar, you are on 13 green sources and i'm going back and forth between 13 and 14. I almost never have issues with double green for Courser.

I played 2 Titans for a while before the Top ban, because it was very relevant against Miracles, i think i cut the 2nd Titan directly after the ban. Maybe having a 2nd one would help with my Miracles problems, have to think about that a bit.

Maybe i'll just try Choke for a while and see how it feels. Maybe a 2nd Titan too - it's only really relevant against Miracles.

The last successful list i 5-0ed with is this one: www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/982314

Current spots in discussion for me:
The Titania is currently just another Fetchland. Could also go down on mana sources again and maybe turn that into a 2nd Titan. Or go back to Titania.
The Abrupt Decays in the maindeck are kinda flexspots. It's either the most relevant removal spell (Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality or Swords to Plowshares) or currently just Lingering Souls (that card has overperformed so much for me).
The board is constantly changing a little bit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Interesting - i win so many games with DD, i wouldn't ever cut it - but i just watched Ehhh stream my deck and he plays it differently and doesn't use DD that much, so i guess it's mostly about the playstyle. Instead of TKS i have the white splash for Teeg against combo, that just wins the game against Storm on the spot and is very useful against Elves too (and has some use against SnT).

My manabase is similar, you are on 13 green sources and i'm going back and forth between 13 and 14. I almost never have issues with double green for Courser.

I played 2 Titans for a while before the Top ban, because it was very relevant against Miracles, i think i cut the 2nd Titan directly after the ban. Maybe having a 2nd one would help with my Miracles problems, have to think about that a bit.

Maybe i'll just try Choke for a while and see how it feels. Maybe a 2nd Titan too - it's only really relevant against Miracles.

The last successful list i 5-0ed with is this one: www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/982314

Current spots in discussion for me:
The Titania is currently just another Fetchland. Could also go down on mana sources again and maybe turn that into a 2nd Titan. Or go back to Titania.
The Abrupt Decays in the maindeck are kinda flexspots. It's either the most relevant removal spell (Abrupt Decay, Collective Brutality or Swords to Plowshares) or currently just Lingering Souls (that card has overperformed so much for me).
The board is constantly changing a little bit.

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This is awesome!! Have you been posting this in the Nic Fit thread? My take on the deck is a tad more in the post direction, yours in Nic Fit, so I can see why people might not take to it as a post deck. Nic Fit was my first legacy deck. I love your GSZ toolkit. Titania is one of my favs.

Tracker has been amazing for me, he would be the first card I double up on. Crop rotation is an odd card for me - I often side it out completely against counter magic decks because I end up getting 2 for 1'd. I was testing with a friend and he pointed out that DD seemed like more of a win-more card for me, that it rarely won me matches I wasn't already winning. That's what made me decide to move some pieces around.

Gaddock is great game 1. I tend to have less luck with him post board. TKS gives me better all around game, though definitely not the raw stopping power. When I played scooze I had some issue coming up with green to make him relevant against control (he usually ate removal quite quickly). What do you most often use him for?

What sort of a role has Ballista played for you? Do you often search it up with eye, a jace killer, or just to ping various dudes? I would like it as a one of in my main, at least.

What are the Swords and Lingering for out of the board?

When I first tried a list more similar to this it was without the diamonds and I had mana issues. I never tested it with the diamonds - results speak for themselves though! I think I just barraged you with about every question I could think of. Sorry about that! Thanks for sharing^^

Edit: found your post on the Nic Fit thread, am reading through some of it now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nimkee

This is awesome!! Have you been posting this in the Nic Fit thread? My take on the deck is a tad more in the post direction, yours in Nic Fit, so I can see why people might not take to it as a post deck. Nic Fit was my first legacy deck. I love your GSZ toolkit. Titania is one of my favs.

Tracker has been amazing for me, he would be the first card I double up on. Crop rotation is an odd card for me - I often side it out completely against counter magic decks because I end up getting 2 for 1'd. I was testing with a friend and he pointed out that DD seemed like more of a win-more card for me, that it rarely won me matches I wasn't already winning. That's what made me decide to move some pieces around.

Gaddock is great game 1. I tend to have less luck with him post board. TKS gives me better all around game, though definitely not the raw stopping power. When I played scooze I had some issue coming up with green to make him relevant against control (he usually ate removal quite quickly). What do you most often use him for?

What sort of a role has Ballista played for you? Do you often search it up with eye, a jace killer, or just to ping various dudes? I would like it as a one of in my main, at least.

What are the Swords and Lingering for out of the board?

When I first tried a list more similar to this it was without the diamonds and I had mana issues. I never tested it with the diamonds - results speak for themselves though! I think I just barraged you with about every question I could think of. Sorry about that! Thanks for sharing^^

Edit: found your post on the Nic Fit thread, am reading through some of it now.

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I started posting only in the Nic Fit thread when i got a lot of responses there and no responses here, i just figured Nic Fit players were more interested in the deck. :wink:

Crop Rotation is great against many combo decks (usually to get Bojuka Bog, but i like the option to go for a fast DD kill too) and also good against non-blue decks. It's a little awkward against blue decks sometimes - i personally think it's ok against Delver in response to Wasteland, but i usually side it out against blue decks without Wastelands. Overall that's the reason for the 2/2 split, it's not that great against some of the most played decks in the format but great against everything else.
About DD, when another 12-post player was watching my games on xmage he pointed out how often i used it compared to him, and that made me play the 2nd Stage for the 4th Glimmerpost at the time (the 4th Cloudpost went away later), and at least for my playstyle it was a very good and very relevant change.

Tracker is the engine that keeps the deck running - imo you need some kind of card advantage tool to outgrind the fair decks. Or you need to focus much more on the combo aspects of the deck and make an early Eldrazi more likely, but i prefer grinding, the other direction is what most other 12-post decks have tried for years.

Scooze has many uses. It can shut the door on some combo decks: It's usually not good enough to beat Reanimator alone, but after you dealt with their first combo attempt it's the best way to shut down their combo forever. Similar but even better against Dredge. Also very relevant against Lands. And against other fair decks, when it comes down later in the game i usually have the mana to make it a game ending threat, ideally it comes down right after a boardwipe. Earlier in the game it depends, but most of the time green mana isn't a big issue. And if it lives, it can shut down Deathrite and Snapcaster.

Ballista is a manasink without costing much mana. It can come down early for 2 mana and just trade with a creature if you need to. Or come down for 4 mana, kill a creature and still remain in play turning it into a 2-for-1 already. Or come down later and just wipe the board against some decks, often still staying in play. It can kill planeswalkers like Jace sometimes. Also more relevant than you would think: It can kill your own Explorer when you don't have a sacrifice outlet. Later in the game if i have the mana i usually search Eldrazi with Eye, but in some situations you might prefer a Ballista, sometimes just to directly kill the opponent.

Swords are just another removal spell, at the time i wanted something relevant against Delver that has also some use against certain combo decks (Reanimator, Turbo Depths). At the moment i have cut the Swords again, but they are always an option.

Lingering Souls are many things, i board them in against pretty much every fair deck. The many different uses:
1. It's often something between 1 and 4 fogs by blocking their biggest threat, buying me time to develop the board - similar to something like Moment's Peace, with different upsides and downsides. It helps that they fly, you can block Delver, Flickerwisp and even Marit Lage. Only againt TNN and threats with Trample (mostly Elves) it's really worse than a fog.
2. It presents an unexpected angle of attack: They prepare for one big threat out of this deck, if you go wide you can catch some fair decks by surprise. Diabolic Edict doesn't look that good any more against 4 Spirit Tokens.
3. Their evasion turns them into a good Jace killer. Planeswalkers and Jace in particular can be a problem, this helps a lot.

I am intrigued by the white you both run, did you try other colours before choosing white?

I'm on the UG plan with some spice (omniscience, intuition, amulet of vigor, urborg and notion thief in the side).

I do get hampered by chalice and few recurring draw engines. Combo decks are an instant lose too. How do your decks fair with those issues?