[Primer] Elves!

I don't bring in Thoughtseize vs Lands, Painter or Infect. You can even make a case of not sideboarding it on the play in the mirror. If my sideboard was horrible vs Infect (few Decays, no Needle), I could consider bringing in Thoughtseize on the play in addition to the Cabal Therapys which I always bring in in the MU (to name Invigorate; or Blighted Agent if you get the read/opportunity).

Other than that, I always bring in 4 Thoughtseize 2 Surgical Extraction vs Miracles. No Cabal Therapies though. Against Food Chain, should it ever come up, I guess you could bring in Thoughtseizes but I'd not be thrilled to do so. Feel more like wanting Cabal Therapy.

I would never waste a SB slot on Melira. I think you'd be unlikely to play against Infect more than once every 30 matches. Even if the impact she has is really high, I can't see using an entire otherwise 100% dead SB slot for it.

I think I will hop on this Thoughtseize discussion. When did people start to switch Cabal Therapy to Thoughtseize?

Lists used to run 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 Thoughtseize. Then it went to 3-3. Now I see decks running 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Therapies.

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Originally Posted by AznSeal

I think I will hop on this Thoughtseize discussion. When did people start to switch Cabal Therapy to Thoughtseize?

Lists used to run 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 Thoughtseize. Then it went to 3-3. Now I see decks running 4 Thoughtseize and 2 Therapies.

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I think people are getting bad at blind cabal'n and are cutting their losses assuming 2 life is worth less than a sac'd creature? honestly if you are not playing in a major GP and have a rather small meta cabal is nuts in that you can "pre-board" your cabal calls after a few weeks of playing and putting a deck to a face

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Originally Posted by prdgchild

I think people are getting bad at blind cabal'n and are cutting their losses assuming 2 life is worth less than a sac'd creature? honestly if you are not playing in a major GP and have a rather small meta cabal is nuts in that you can "pre-board" your cabal calls after a few weeks of playing and putting a deck to a face

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or is it this, "Thoughtseize is the death of Cabal Therapy at large. You get your information advantage by viewing your opponent's hand, you basically never whiff, and you get to decide what really is the most relevant card in your opponent's hand with your newly acquired knowledge. Thoughtseize is both more forgiving, but even more powerful in situations where unexpected cards can be found in an opponent's hand."

Saying that thoughtseize is more powerful than cabal therapy looks blasphemous to me. Cabal can win games that thoughtseize never would, but you have to be very experienced to play cabal therapy optimally, so it makes sense to use thoughtseize if you want a safer card.

If it was just about Combo, I'd go Cabal Therapy all the way. But it's more about Miracles than it is about combo for me and Thoughtseize is much better there. You need your discard early and you wanna guarantee a hit. Turn5+ on, discard becomes rather bad and useless anyways. The flashback is nice, but I really want Thoughtseize. Nothing worse than whiffing with a turn1 Therapy on top, only to see a Brainstorm and a couple other spells you'd have loved to take. I often even just TS a Swords and then Surgical it. Gives you so much more breathing room in the matchup, turning SCM into a glorified Elvish Visionary. This also ties in with playing no Enchantments/Artifacts to blank even more of their configuration postboard.

For me I dropped cabals therapies long ago and ran 4 thoughtseize because I was terrible with cabal.

Also running NO, I just hated sac'ing creatures more than I already needed too. Right now I'm at 4 Thoughtseize and 1 cabal.

I'm probably slower than most, but this deck was one of the most complicated to learn to sideboard appropriately

And Decay and Garruck? What do you side out so?

I never liked Toughtseize Vs Miracle or another contrôle deck. These Mus are a war of resources. You play your card, your opponent kill or counter. He plays his threat (cb, jace, etc) you kill that (decay, etc). Turn after turn, your resources decrease and top deck Thoughtseize is very bad. You want a card for win, for impact the battlefield.

You think really in 4 cards for just turn 1 and 2 is good? I'm very not sure :)

Vs Storm I'm convinced Thoughtseize > Cabal. Why? What do you name for your blind cabal? Infernal Tutor? The problem is the storm player have many set ups for win without IT in hand. You don't really want flashback in this mu. Sacrifice a elf when your first game plan is turbo glimpse isn't good.

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I always bring in 4 Thoughtseize 2 Surgical Extraction vs Miracles.

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And Decay and Garruck? What do you side out so?[/QUOTE]

Usually 2 Cradles, 3 NO, 1 Behemoth, 3 NS, 2 HD, 2-3 Quirion Ranger. I usually bring in a lot vs Miracles.

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I never liked Toughtseize Vs Miracle or another contrôle deck. These Mus are a war of resources. You play your card, your opponent kill or counter. He plays his threat (cb, jace, etc) you kill that (decay, etc). Turn after turn, your resources decrease and top deck Thoughtseize is very bad. You want a card for win, for impact the battlefield.

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I wish the matchup palyed out like that. Against most Control decks it actually does. Against Miracles, not so much. They eventually just kill you with Angels out of the blue. Mentor makes it a little easier but eventually you can't keep up. Especially when only running 3 Decays, but even 4 are already heavily overloaded with CB and hate bears.

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You think really in 4 cards for just turn 1 and 2 is good? I'm very not sure :)

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Yes, I am sure. If you're not sure, you should play more to become sure.

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Vs Storm I'm convinced Thoughtseize > Cabal. Why? What do you name for your blind cabal? Infernal Tutor? The problem is the storm player have many set ups for win without IT in hand. You don't really want flashback in this mu.

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If you don't have a read on anything and also no other interaction (like DRS, Ooze, Surgical etc), you name one of their +3 spells: LED and/or Cabal Ritual. In the past Infernal Tutor was fine but ever since they started running Dark Petition, I'm no longer perfectly comfortable.

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Sacrifice a elf when your first game plan is turbo glimpse isn't good.

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That's not my game plan. I often side out 2-4 Glimpse against Storm anyways. Plan is to get them to 12 life with DRS+Quirion Ranger on the table.

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Usually 2 Cradles, 3 NO, 1 Behemoth, 3 NS, 2 HD, 2-3 Quirion Ranger. I usually bring in a lot vs Miracles.

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It seems to me you have to play Garruck in sideboard for your Chaosdecklist so without NO, you side in still Thoughtseize, garruck, decay and Surgical?

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I wish the matchup palyed out like that. Against most Control decks it actually does. Against Miracles, not so much. They eventually just kill you with Angels out of the blue. Mentor makes it a little easier but eventually you can't keep up. Especially when only running 3 Decays, but even 4 are already heavily overloaded with CB and hate bears.

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I'm agree with that :) I'm not disagree

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Yes, I am sure. If you're not sure, you should play more to become sure.

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I like that haha :p You have more games than me Vs Miracle (not with elves but definitely Vs Miracle).

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If you don't have a read on anything and also no other interaction (like DRS, Ooze, Surgical etc), you name one of their +3 spells: LED and/or Cabal Ritual. In the past Infernal Tutor was fine but ever since they started running Dark Petition, I'm no longer perfectly comfortable.

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I'm agree : MANY targets so Cabal isn't the best card for discard.

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That's not my game plan. I often side out 2-4 Glimpse against Storm anyways. Plan is to get them to 12 life with DRS+Quirion Ranger on the table.

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Vs a deck that will kill you in turn 1-2-3 70% by game? You don't want go in combo Glimpse? Vs a fast deck? 12life plan with DRS and Quirion is faster? You can keep 4 Glimpse and take you game plan. Visionary and Symbiot are slow.

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Usually 2 Cradles, 3 NO, 1 Behemoth, 3 NS, 2 HD, 2-3 Quirion Ranger. I usually bring in a lot vs Miracles.
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That's not my game plan. I often side out 2-4 Glimpse against Storm anyways. Plan is to get them to 12 life with DRS+Quirion Ranger on the table.

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You side in TS even OTD versus miracle? I take them only OTP, as they are bad lategame and unable to pick SDT OTD. You find them usefull enough OTD?
Also, you side out that many quirion? I like them as dryad saver and DRS enhancers. I usually remove all NS and HD before a quirion. what makes you favor them over QR?

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Originally Posted by blind

Vs a deck that will kill you in turn 1-2-3 70% by game? You don't want go in combo Glimpse? Vs a fast deck? 12life plan with DRS and Quirion is faster? You can keep 4 Glimpse and take you game plan. Visionary and Symbiot are slow.

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I usually keep 3-4 glimpses as well, but it is clearly not a MU where they shine. You bring a lots of cards in.

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You bring a lots of cards in.

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Fizzle in your hate, I'm not sure is bad furthermore you in 1 or free CCM card.

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Plan is to get them to 12 life with DRS+Quirion Ranger on the table.

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How turn this plan is effective? turn 4?

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Originally Posted by blind

Fizzle in your hate, I'm not sure is bad furthermore you in 1 or free CCM card.

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Yes, and it is why I keep glimpse. But you prefer to play discard/hate T2 than glimpse, and often I prefer to keep DRS activation open too if possible before an uncertain glimpse chain. So it is not that efficient as early threat, and matches poorly vs storm own discard.

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Originally Posted by blind

How turn this plan is effective? turn 4?

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turn 3, Usually: T1 or 2 DRS + discard + hate if possible, and then DRS is all you need to control gy and ping. Storm usually self-inflicts 2-4 damages in the first couple of turns.

I don't have anything pertinent to add, but I want to say thank you for the last few pages of actual strategy discussion. :) being contructive/helpful is always awesome.

For those running garruk relentless in the side: What match ups do you bring him in outside miracles?

Bug

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Originally Posted by Atikin

For those running garruk relentless in the side: What match ups do you bring him in outside miracles?

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Shardless or any sort of deck that is looking to grind you out. jund.

I also bring him in against any sort of Delver deck. If he resolves, the worst case is he trades with a flipped Delver. Best case he completly takes over the game.

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I also bring him in against any sort of Delver deck. If he resolves, the worst case is he trades with a flipped Delver. Best case he completly takes over the game.

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It's bad vs RUG. I bring Garruck only if I play NO version (obv side out NO vs RuG) and I have more cards to out than to in.

Yeah Vs Jund it's very good. :) Esper too.

It's still decent vs Canadian since there's nothing else to do with the slot anyways. I usually bring out 3 NOs, 1 Craterhoof and Reclamation Sage. That leaves you with 4 Decays to bring in + x. I can see bringing in 2 instead of Garruk, usually to name Rough/Tumble.