I thought the same thing.
-Matt
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I thought the same thing.
-Matt
Maybe he predicted Reanimator/Sneak making a comeback in response to URweaktocombodraw3.dec. I remember when Reanimator was huge many Maverick decks packed 1 main 1 sideboard, but that is certainly an interesting and ambitious choice in a deck with Lili.
and decay. And 3 basics plus 4 wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
Might there be any room for a ramp-focused Junk deck? I've been running a 12 mana dork into 3-4cc creatures deck in modern and it's been doing surprisingly well. This is not really an approach I have seen in any format really, but it's been a lot of fun and all the mana really feels like you can do so many things so quickly. I'm thinking something along the lines of:
//18 Lands
3 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
//12 Mana ramp
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
//12 Disruption
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
//12 Strong threats
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Siege Rhino
//6 Utility
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Dryad Arbor
SB: 4 Choke
SB: 4 Burrenton Forge-Tender
SB: 4 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Qasali Pridemage
This fits very closely my modern version of this deck (18 land/12 mana ramp/12 hard to deal with threats + 18 utility/disruption), so I can say in terms of this style of deck running properly, it does work pretty well. This specific list is untested but more to illustrate the concept of relying on a bunch of mana creatures to accelerate out an aggressive gameplan, rather than taking a more controlly route slower route. I'm interested in knowing if anybody has approached this deck from this angle or not.
The deck doesn't look it, but it can actually play out extremely fast. For example, pilgrim -> loxodon smiter -> attack 4 + seige rhino (7) -> attack 8 (15) on turn 4 already. Certainly not fast for legacy by any means, but multiple X/4s are hard for a lot of decks to deal with. (This is one of the reasons why Entreat is so powerful in miracles.) Plus, with 12 ramp spells choke out of the board becomes so much more powerful.
Anyway, this type of deck might not be viable in a competitive scene (would certainly need to be tuned more to handle combo), but I've been pleasantly surprised with the consistency of decks like this in implementing their simple game plan. Plus, they're a blast to play (In my opinion.)
I think that double Karakas is to have some hope against a Show and Tell'd/Reanimated monster, especially Norn. When the Delver deck is running 12 X/2s, and light countermagic, Elesh Norn is THE card to have on the battlefield. The incidental hate on decks like this probably pushed him towards that 2nd Karakas.
I'd be all about trying that Japanese list on a normal weekend. Bobs, Goyfs, Lilianas, some hateful Spirit of the Lab action, and even an Elspeth. I just feel like I'd screw up/forget Mirri's Guile or make some land sequences that punish me over 12 rounds being that I haven't played the list.
In the last 2 weeks, I tried playing some Miracles, which I used to play a fair amount. I found myself making far too many Top errors, and not playing to my outs enough that I decided to come back to The Rock for the GP. My brain is just so much more used to making lines with Knight, GSZ, and setting up lands with The Rock than it is to spinning Top and trying to close out with Jace, Clique, and Angels. I suppose it's pretty much Maverick at this point (playing Thalia, not playing discard main), but I'm still gonna write The Rock in the deck name field, even if they're just gonna call it "Abzan Midrange."
I was super excited at first but it turns out that third place deck came in a top 8 with 0 copies of Treasure Cruise. There are lots of Digs, though, and 2 traditional Canadian Thresh decks with Mongoose (no Mandrills, Matt, sorry!)
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8439&f=LE
Guess Japan isn't as big on UR delver and megaburn as North America?
There was 330 players in that tournament according to mtg pulse decklists. There had to be of U/R delver played. It just didīt made to top 8. This proves that cruise doesnīt always win. I will test that list in weeks to come. Only cards im not sure in that list are Elspeth and Krosan Grip. They are good against Miracles but not any other Tier 1 deck ATM. List is also a bit weak against combo.
Have you tried it in legacy? I feel like you're going to get wasted out *a lot.* Either way, one sculler or Thalia should be a Gaddock Teeg (You have 4 GSZ.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
I notice you don't have a single Kill spell. This disturbs me deeply. Even maverick runs 4 Plow.
Your threats can't beat Goyfs reliably and with no removal, no Mother of Runes, no equips, you can't reliably attack through opponent's board positions.
Question:
I'm noticing both the Japanese list referenced above and also this one [ T8/78 http://mtgdecks.net/decks/view/100872 ] play four copies of Dark Confidant, but only three of Stoneforge Mystic, while trying to cheat out Batterskull. It seems to me you'd want to do the reverse: SFM nets you a card as soon as it lands, whereas Bob gives the opponent a chance to untap first. Also, SFM isn't as soft against Forked Bolt, which seems increasingly popular lately, and post-board is also more resilient to Zealous Persecution/Golgari Charm/Electrickery.
Thoughts?
...
Unrelatedly, if we're assuming paying life for things is bad in DelverBurn.meta , and Mirri's Guile lets you stack the top of your library before you reveal to Bob, unlike Sylvan Library, and also being cheaper has the potential to come down a turn earlier and/or Daze-proof, might the card with the embarrassing feline art actually be better?
I'll be trying Guile out this week at my local. Haven't been able to get any practice with it yet.
I like 4 Bob; as he's a removal magnet. 3 SFM feels greedy with BSK, but they're winning tournies.. so I don't know..
Currently 5/1 after round 6. Running the same list as I did in the trial, except -1 Sigarda -1 Choke, +1 Needle +1 Zealous in the board.
R1&2: Byes
R3: Win 2/0 against stock U/R Delver.
R4: Lose 2/1 against brewed U/R Delver.
R5: Win 2/0 against Storm w/ Cruise. Marit Lage ate him :)
R6: Win 2/1 against stock U/R Delver. Damn close games. Winning the die roll OP.
I'll try to post more after Day 1 is over. Despite me writing "The Rock" on my deck list, the list was posted as fucking Abzan. Grrrrrr. I'll have to take out my frustration on some more Pyromancers.
R7: Lost 2/0 to Death and Taxes, epic misplay game 1.
R8: Lost 2/1 to Merfolk. Mull to 5 game 1, Drew both pieces of Marit Lage back to back to kill him the turn before he killed me in game 2, and game 3 I mull to 6, dont get black mana and DRS gets Needled.
At 5/3 I dropped.
In the last two rounds I drew a total of 1 Swords to Plowshares, and 1 Abrupt Decay.
The event was super sweet, and I'm glad I went. This was definitely the best Legacy GP Ive been to. Knight has been good to me, but I'm eager to sleeve up those Goyfs, Bobs, and Spirits of the Lab. That japanese list just looks too awesome.
I will say that the tech of Forest-Crop rotation- Ancient Tomb, Chalice on 1 is pretty sweet, something I haven't realized before.
apple, I really like the idea. I don't think it's out of place here, but is maybe closer to the Sylvan Plug list that Lejay posted and has been discussed over in New & Developmental. You might get better input...
On the deck itself... Loam seems like it should be somewhere. Also some sort of 2G threat/thing to do on turn 2 for when you have that opener that's like Ancient Tomb, Forest, Bojuka Bog, Dryad Arbor, Knight, Elderscale Wurm, Eternal Witness. I guess you can GSZ for Pridemage/Ranger but it doesn't always do anything...
Just looking at everything with manacost 2G that might be interesting (some of these are very situational):
Azusa, Lost but Seeking
Brindle Boar
Call of the Herd
Choke
Daybreak Ranger
Downdraft
Fallow Earth
Fallow Wurm
Fierce Empath
Gift of the Gargantuan
Nantuko Shaman
Realms Uncharted
Reclamation Sage
Song of the Dryads
Yisan, the Wanderer Bard
At 3 CMC artifact we have:
Crucible of Worlds
Culling Scales
Damping Matrix
Forcefield
Oblivion Stone
Plague Boiler
Trinisphere
Just something to consider. Cool idea.
So I ran "7 Goyf" this weekend at my LGS to a mere 2-2, losing twice to UR Delver. The list looks like:
Mainboard:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Mirri's Guile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Golgari Charm
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Toxic Deluge
I did and didn't like Guile. The plan felt smooth and powerful. Below is the mild report, focusing more on the UR Losses as they somewhat surprised me. I've omitted the wins mostly.
-BUG Delver- 2-1
Lily does a lot of work. I interact with him enough to keep threats on the table reliably.
-ANT- 2-0
My hands are full of action since post side is so dense and pre-side is reasonable.
-UR Delver- 0-2
G1- Is grindy and eventually he has a Pyro. He starts cruising while I get Bob active. Bob + Guile draw me a pair of lands out of 3. I see 3 lands and GSZ. I take GSZ with Bob and fetch before drawing to get something that's not a land. I draw a land. That set of 4 lands in a row + the blind fetch->Draw land killed me.
G2- 7-cards with only a wasteland. 6-cards with only wasteland. 5-nonlands. 4-card is finally a keep with 3 lands + Goyf. Still. I obviously don't have the action to win like that.
-UR Delver- 1-2
G1- Mildly grindy but I land early goyfs and build them to a 6/7 while disrupting. He starts finding lands with Cruise->Cruise->stuff and I answer everything.
G2- Mull to 5 for lands? (6 non land, then 5 lands and a dude.) Lose handsomely to fireblast + Delver -> Vortex (IIRC)
G3- Reasonable game, but by the time I've established a secure board I get blasted + something to the face and die. I think my board was Goyf Goyf Bob DRS.
-Zombardment (Practice)- 2-0 (at least)
We answer eachothers stuff a lot, but my cards are better.
Thoughts:
-Goyf and Lily are fine against UR Delver. That said, I sided lily for Deluge of course.
-Guile is worse than Top AND Library in this deck. I was annoyed I couldn't multi-look and that I had no way to draw (as at least with Top, you can cantrip into something when you need a turn to do more stuff.)
-Arbor is probably bad in my deck, but it's the justification for going for GSZ. I'll give it some time with practice. I'm certainly looking for how I'd add the SFM package. (Right now it'd be -2 Guile, -1 Lily, -1 GSZ) making my deck look like Matt's with Scullers and a Teeg where his libraries and third equip are.
-Debating 2Chains of Meph in place of Guile. Spirit of the Labyrinth seems bad if you're using it against Forked Bolts and such. Since the delvers I have problems with run little to no Decays I think Chains is better positioned. It's still fine as a +1 to Lily I think. Besides, if you're going to bling out $400-500 worth of two cards, may as well play them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
thanks guys I think that i'll just start a new thread cause its really different than the other decks. it faces very different problems. I'll try and get the new post up soon, so look for it if you want to contribute.Quote:
Originally Posted by maharis
the new thread can be found here
This s pretty close to what I'd like to run this week:
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword #2
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy or Plains
4 Marsh Flats
1 Savannah
3 Scrubland
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
I've been taking notes from Maverick and decided I needed a couple more mana-dudes to reliably equip mid-game and get through Delver. Birds seem good if I stick with a double-swords composition (debating between SoLaS and SoFaF.) I'm also thinking I'd like to cram in a couple more SFM.
Do you guys have any opinions where the SFMs go? I was thinking a Lily and an IoK; but I like where my combo-protection is at and I'm still a fan of Lily. Even so, I could see pushing her to the SB for an SFM. It seems weird to push out one of my last 3-drops right after adding more mana-dudes though.
I'll say I continue to be happy with Tidehollow. I played a bit of a BUG control/midrange list and D&T over the last week and he continues to be reliably obnoxious. GSZ was mediocre; usually being a mana off from what I want to be doing that turn. I experimented with Qasali's next to it and while I popped some equips; had my list just been more powerful the opposing equips would've have mattered. CA > utility in this case.
Thanks for any advice!
I'm seeing a lot of Tidehollow Sculler in the most recent lists posted here. How is that working out for you? I have very consistently hated it.
I have a love/hate relationship with the card. Discard on a body is phenomenal, and the way Tidehollow Sculler's triggers work can make for some very interesting scenarios. But on the whole it functions too much like a BW Meddling Mage, and I'm not a fan of Meddling Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirrislegend
I tried him out again after hating him consistently for a long time. What I realized was he's "Must remove" or else he's card advantage.
Things to remember:
-He boosts goyf +2. His artifact status has been very helpful in achieving a 6/7 goyf
-He augments your 1-CMC discard well; he does not replace it. I run a 6-3 split (I got this from someone who's topped an SCG, seems legit)
-Seeing their hand is a big deal. If your opponent is loaded with removal, take the worst one so they have to use the (situational) best on him instead.
-You can take early game cards and if they get them back, it's too late to be very useful. This can be Discard, Daze, Spell Pierce before you Lily,
-He's a game staller. The idea is to use him to get to your equipped dudes.
Try running him with the full Junk package again if you want. I've been happy with him next to the trio of 2-drops. Note that his manacost is a little awkward next to decay and you should not run him next to KotR without significant manafixing, no basics, or some other concession. Stifle-Delvers were a pain in that config.
His main issue is that he takes up deck slots that aren't the core of the deck, but are really really nice to have, which I haven't been able to reconcile yet. Currently I have no library manipulation and he's an easy swap to go back to an SDT/Library version.
Weekend report: (2-1-1, 2-2 officially.)
I beat UR Delver (2-0) and S&T (2-0) losing to storm (0-2) and drawing with Merfolk (1-1-1). Notes:
-UR Delver. Close game because he bolts me a bunch to try and get me. I have the decay ready for Taylor and stabilize at 4 with Jitte Sculler SFM against Token, Pyro, unflipped Delver. his dudes die real bad. G2 was a free win off of wasteland. (He probed, saw wasteland, Brainstormed, and lost.)
-S&T. He has double S&T G1 so gets a grisel despite my thoughtseize. Still, I fill the board with dudes and swarm through the Emmy on defense (2 bob, 2 drs, goyf, SFM.) G2 he mulls a bit, gets hit by 2-3 discard followed by Lily.
-Merfolk. Nice guy but spammed Misdirection and back to basics in the main. This meant G1 I plowed my own dude and got half-locked. G2 I crush him utterly. G3 I mull to 5 and was probably going to lose, I concede T5 in turns since he was paired down and was win-and-in
-Storm I mull to 5 twice looking for interaction and get mediocre hand + bad draws. C'est la vie
This is a great way to put it. Like Meddling Mage, it's great against combo decks, but we have cards that are better against combo decks. In fair matchups, he's miserable. Too easily outclassed in combat and doesn't hit the top of the deck for removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamajellydonut