4 Card Blind

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Backbuild.
I think that could be crazy fun, and the best chance to see truly new cards and strategies. By far my favourite option. Trouble of last one played was "the imitation game", having a deck close to the one that needed to be beaten was a great option. If all cards in the previous decks are banned and we do not know which one the others are beating, that is gone, and we are back to "do your worst".
Rules:Each card in decks that score 3+ is banned for the remainder of the season.Each round, to be legal a deck should be able to beat one of the top 3 decks of previous rounds (TO choses in case of equality).

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I like backbuild idea a lot. But does it need to be a bannathon? If we say that you must beat the best performing deck of the last round, AND 1 of 2-4th place (chosen privately) shouldn’t the decks inherently increase in power naturally? I know X beats Y isn’t transitive, but if you have to beat two things I think it is unlikely to get stuck in a loop.

There were some weird results this round when the banlist got very large. There is also a purity to a season with no banlist. (Other than dexterity/conspiracy/online only). It might power up the format too fast, but beat every first place lists throughout the season + one of 2-4th place would allow it to run without a bannathon, although it would be probably too much work to figure out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I like backbuild idea a lot. But does it need to be a bannathon? If we say that you must beat the best performing deck of the last round, AND 1 of 2-4th place (chosen privately) shouldn’t the decks inherently increase in power naturally? I know X beats Y isn’t transitive, but if you have to beat two things I think it is unlikely to get stuck in a loop.

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Great you like it!

I am pretty sure that then a few strategies more (less?) powerful would evolve and regularly come back.
But the biggest reason to ban each card is to prevent anyone to run the same cards, and so go for "what kills that will kill me too".

What you propose (to have to beat 2 decks) is also a pretty good idea, but then I am afraid of the number of illegal entries might be a nightmare :/
So I would like to play it, but definitely not to be TO for it ;)

To avoid a crazy banlist we could maybe play just 8-10 rounds.

For the anti-LD/discard rules, allowing any land to phase would mean creature lands become very hard to deal with; so I'd make the rule "All lands *with no types other than Land* have 0:this phases out".
You could also turn off the ability with pithing needle but that's fine I think.

I like the backbuild idea.

I like backbuild as well. We could do a longer season as well, simply by using a different "deck to beat" for each round.

I also like backbuild, though I'm not sure using the previous round's top decks as decks to beat would work since there are some very narrow hate cards that might allow the same bad threats to be played over and over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RoosterCocoa

I also like backbuild, though I'm not sure using the previous round's top decks as decks to beat would work since there are some very narrow hate cards that might allow the same bad threats to be played over and over.

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We still ban every deck that scores 3+, that should avoid that the same bad threats are played over and over ;)
Maybe I am wrong, but then it can probably be fixed mid season.

Already 5, very nice to see a lot of support for backbuild!

Deadline for the final round is almost upon us. About 30 minutes left, and as of yet I'm missing entries from Gobbo, maxx! and FTW. :wink:

I guess the bannathon is better at stopping the “deck to beat but slightly different” thing, since the decks that are 1-3 should have more than 3 points. I would like it to be >3 rather than >=3. Going WL vs everything doesn’t feel like a win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

I guess the bannathon is better at stopping the “deck to beat but slightly different” thing, since the decks that are 1-3 should have more than 3 points. I would like it to be >3 rather than >=3. Going WL vs everything doesn’t feel like a win.

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Sure for >3.
Bannathon and having to beat the decks 1-3 also are a bit synergistic, so you cannot reuse any of the cards of the decks everyone is trying to beat.

Sorry I missed the deadline. Sent something just now

And we're complete, and I noticed, which also helps, so let's do that final round!


DECKS FOR THE FINAL ROUND OF SEASON 12: Vintage Creatureless Bannathon

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches

Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll create a tab for the round in our Google Spreadsheet, so you can enter your scores there as well: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
For some reason I totally missed that this didn't get banned and looks like a better version of my deck. That said, Pendelhaven means neither of us can make progress even if you do have 2 Squirrels to my 1. DD

2-2

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
me

3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
OTP Tendrils beats your Nest, OTD you go wide and disable my Pendelhaven with Moon. WL

3-3

4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
OTP, I make a squirrel on my turn 1, then another on my turn 2 - my 2 1/1s beat your 1 1/1 even if I lose all my lands. W
OTD, I can make 1 Squirrel but have no way to keep enough lands to make another, and I can't keep PendelHaven to pump my Squirrel. However, I get my 1/1 first and can start attacking on my turn 2 forcing you to block for the draw. D

4-1

5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
Tendrils on my turn 2 puts you down to just your two lands, but Hall does let you eventually recover and grind me out. LL

0-6

6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
Tendrils on my turn 2 puts you down to just your two lands, but Hall does let you eventually recover and grind me out. LL

0-6

7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
OTP I make you discard 2 on my turn 2 and that's enough. OTD I can't beat Hypergenesis. WL

3-3

8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
Tendrils takes away your Vault+Key so it comes down to a long game race which my 2/3 Squirrel takes. WW

6-0

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
You can always Spell Pierce my Tendrils and I can't beat PFire. LL

0-6

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
OTP Tendrils beat Scepter, OTD I can't beat Scepter+Verdict. LL

0-6

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
OTP Tendrils takes away your win condition and ability to Castigate me. W
OTD your Castigate takes my Tendrils and I can't beat Curse. L

3-3

total: 21 points

5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
Rishadan port, tendrils of despair, and piracy charm seemed like best interaction left, so I built to beat that.

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
I can ignore a discard 2. WW 6-0

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
I can ignore a discard 2. WW 6-0

3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
Non port LD LL 0-6

4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
Non port LD LL 0-6

6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
Pseudo mirror where you built to beat alpine moon instead of port. 2 bodies every 3 turns beats a shock every other turn. WW 6-0

7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
T2 combo LL

8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
You can get everything down t3. Cool deck. LL 0-6

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
Shock every other turn loses to 2 bodies every third turn. WW 6-0

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
Sac plus damage every turn is faster than I can keep up. LL 0-6
Edit: actually with the lifegain on omen it should be WL 3-3

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
Exile. LL 0-6

8 W 12 L for 24/60
9 W 11 L for 27/60?

I expected a lot more of plasmoids old deck instead of t2 combo. Seal of cleansing would have done a lot better than elspeth but I was scared of blue planeswalkers

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches

I've had this deck for a while with T2 Vindicate, but both Peat Bog and Remote Farm were banned before I was ready to play it. This round I expected a lot of turn 2 disruption, turn 3 combo (Squirrel Nest, Thopter Foundry), and recursion decks to beat disruption, so Castigate looked good.

1. Asthereal (TO): OTP T2 Curse wins. OTD T2 Mind Rake stops me. WL 3-3
2. alphastryk: OTP T2 Curse wins. OTD discard 2 stops me. WL 3-3
3. dte: Alpine Moon prevents my wincon. OTP I can Castigate Squirrel Nest. Edit: OTD you skip Moon to play Nest first and it stabilizes against Curse. DL 1-4
4. Phasmoid: OTP T2 Curse wins. OTD I do nothing. You Tremble once to make a 1/1. I play a tapped land, but then you Tremble again. WL 3-3
5. Reeplcheep: I can always exile Omen and play my threat under Nightmare. WW 6-0
6. jfb1337: T2 Castigate takes Seal of Cleansing. Then 4/4 lifelink races your Seal of Fire. WW 6-0
7. silkster: OTP T2 Castigate takes Kiora (feel free to Hypergenesis). OTD Kiora races me. WL 3-3
8. RoosterCocoa: T2 Castigate Time Vault and win with Curse. WW 6-0
9. maxx!: Castigate forces out Spell Pierce. Then Curse races Punishing Fire. WW 6-0
10. GoblinSmashmaster: OTP T2 Castigate takes Verdict. OTD you get Scepter first. WL 3-3

40 points (13 wins, 1 draws, 6 loss)

I almost played Kiora Bests the Sea God this round with Sand Silos. It's such a fun wincon, but seemed too slow. I missed that Hypergenesis was possible!

I've wanted to play Time Vault + Key all season, but couldn't find the right setup for it to come down turn 1-2 and still have a wincon. Rooster's deck is creative! Unfortunately turn 3 might be too slow.

Edit: Here are some other decks I had hoped to play in the late rounds
Sand Silos, Sand Silos, Web of Inertia, Kiora Bests the Sea God (beats discard 2 & LD & spell pierce, slow vs combo)
Gnottvold Slumbermold, Fungal Reaches, Cleansing Wildfire, Beast Attack (turn 2 LD that plays around discard and removal, but no lands left to make it work)
Lair of the Hydra, Amulet of Vigor, Fastbond, Simic Growth Chamber (turn 2 kill! But Lair was randomly banned early)
Leyline of Sanctity, Serra's Sanctum, Myth Realized, Consecrate Land (beats turn 1 discard & LD, got worse vs turn 2 discard/LD and combo)
Also a Glacial Chasm+Wrenn and Six deck that didn't quite come together.

Congrats to dte! Good season everyone!

Me: 7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
Hunh, I didn't realize that this deck didn't get banned.
WL

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
WL

3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
Stealing my Alpine Moon tech. If only I'd played Mana Confluence last round. I wonder how well Alpine Moon will do for you.
LL

4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
Making a Tremble + Dunes/Gods' Eye deck is so awkward because of the possibility of opponents just not playing lands and taking the draws. I feel like there has to be a better threat than the second tremble, but I couldn't think of anything much better which is partly why I never played Tremble.
WL

5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
WW

6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
I'm pretty sure that Seal of Cleansing can't stop my Kraken trigger. Does Seal of Cleansing have a specific target in mind? Oh, Alpine Moon! At least, I assume that's your main target. And you get to kill a Squirrel's Nest, a Voltaic Key, and an Isochron Scepter along the way. Very cool.
WW

8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
My Hypergensis sets you up. I thought I'd be able to steal anything that someone else put down. I didn't expect that someone would stop by saga by not giving me main phases.
LL

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
Spell Pierce!
LL

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
Verdict is actually effective removal, so I just do nothing and steal something if you try to win.
DD

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
Curse of Leeches is not a threat I thought of, despite having cast it on Arena some months ago.
WL

8W, 2D, 10L for 26 points. Not great, but enough that FTW shouldn't beat me by 2.7 round points.

I figured that if Show and Tell was so good a few rounds ago that it might still be good.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
me


10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
OTP Tendrils beat Scepter, OTD I can't beat Scepter+Verdict. LL

0-6

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Typo. WL, 3-3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

I almost played Kiora Bests the Sea God this round with Sand Silos. It's such a fun wincon, but seemed too slow. I missed that Hypergenesis was possible!

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I was so surprised when Show and Tell burst onto the scene because I've had Hypergenesis in my lists for a while, but I completely forgot about S&T. I had 5 candidates for win con: Form of the Dragon, Sandwurm Convergence, Cruel Reality, Captive Audience, and Kiora Bests the Sea God. I was amused to see that 3 S&T decks chose 3 different win cons, and pleased that Kiora was left cause it's the coolest. Cruel Reality would have really stuck it to that Time Vault deck, though!

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel,
Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
3-3
3

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
3-3
6

3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
Me, playing what I considered the best threat and best disrupt from last round. Also LD vs all lands I imagined would be played.

4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
2-2, moon
8

5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
6-0. What I was hoping for.
14

6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
0-6. Seal of cleansing recursive beats me.
14

7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
6-0. Moon
20

8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
6-0, per infinite turns rule in 4CB. I so much tried to make time vault work!
26
--> or DD, as it seems the infinite turns rule was not clear to me.

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
2-2
28

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
0-6. I was completely certain scepter was banned!
28

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
4-1.OTP, squirrel n'est wins. OTD, moon draws.
32

Edit: 28 if the infinite turns lead to draw.

6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing
Chose seal of cleansing not actually to specifically play around moon, but just because many wincons in the creatureless format are going to be on artifacts and enchantments; especially when a lot of the good planeswalkers and creature lands have been banned. Then seal of fire cleans up a lot of the token makers I could think of, after angelpact got banned, while also being a wincon.

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
I recur my stuff after you discard it. WW 6-0.

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
I recur my stuff after you discard it. WW 6-0.

3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga
I blow up your stuff. WW 6-0.

4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
Land destruction. LL 0-6.

5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica
Omen is better in the mirror. LL 0.6.

7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God
I don't beat the 8/8. LL. 0-6

8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault
I blow up your stuff. WW 6-0.

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
2 damage per 2 turns beats 1 damage per 2 turns. WW 6-0.

10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict
Blow up your stuff. WW 6-0.

11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches
You exile my seal of cleansing and win. LL 0-6.

Total: 10W = 30.

As for other ideas I had, I tries to make wrenn and six work for a bit but didn't get anywhere. I thought Wrenn and six, Boseju who endures. Taiga, Ghitu encampment was a great idea before realising boseju was banned. Then I considered Quicksand and Grasping Dunes but it didn't seem strong enough.
I also considered a couple of decks with Kumano Faces Kakkazan but didn't find the round for it.

4. me: ​ ​ ​ Dwarven Ruins ​ , ​ Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai ​ , ​ Tremble ​ , ​ Tremble




1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake ​ DL 1-4
and
2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel ​ DL 1-4

When I am OTD, 2 Squirrels beat 1 Spirit. ​ When I am OTP, I can't beat T1 Chatter,
but double-Tremble (before you can cast discard) leaves 1v1 where you can't pump.



3. dte: squirrel nest, alpine moon, geothermal crevice, taiga ​ DD 2-2


I don't win:
You do nothing until I cast Tremble, since I have to do that to make my threat. ​ If I do, then Alphine Moon
naming Dwarven Hold stops my other Tremble, after which your Squirrels would win for you.

I don't lose:
Alpine Moon can't stop me from casting 1 Tremble, and if Tremble takes 1 of your lands before
you cast Squirrel Nest, then you're locked out. ​ Thus your only chance for a win is being OTP and
playing T1 Crevice and T2 Nest. ​ That requires sacrificing Crevice and leaves you tapped out so
you can't make a Squirrel that turn, which means Tremble takes Taiga before you can make a threat.



4. Phasmoid: Dwarven Ruins, Gods' Eye, Gate to the Reikai, Tremble, Tremble
This is me.


5. Reeplcheep: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Omen of the Sun, Elspeth’s Nightmare, Orzhov Basilica ​ WW 6-0
and
6. jfb1337: Hall of Heliod's Generosity, Boros Garrison, Seal of Fire. Seal of Cleansing ​ WW 6-0

Tremble makes my threat and Tremble takes your bounce-land, locking you out
so my Spirit wins, regardless of whether those Trembles are the same or different.


7. silkster: Dwarven Ruins, Electrodominance, Hypergenesis, Kiora Bests the Sea God ​ WL 3-3

When I am OTD, Kraken smash. ​ When I am OTP, Tremble makes my threat and Tremble takes your land,
locking you out so my Spirit wins, regardless of whether those Trembles are the same or different.


8. RoosterCocoa: Sand Silos, Urza's Factory, Voltaic Key, Time Vault ​ WW 6-0

Tremble makes my threat and Tremble takes 1 of your lands, stopping you from making a threat,
regardless of whether those Trembles are the same or different. ​ That means the only way you
might not lose is by taking infinite turns with Time Vault. ​ However, the only way you can cast
Time Vault is by having already sacrificed Urza's Factory to Tremble. ​ Without Urza's Factory,
you can't take infinite turns, since you must wait once each time Sand Silos goes to zero stored.



9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce ​ DD 2-2


I don't lose: ​ You can only Pierce 1 Tremble, so you can't cast Punish with Fire more than twice.

I don't win:
You do nothing until I cast Tremble, since I have to do that to make my threat. ​ If I do, then you
play Volcanic Island, Spell Pierce lets you get to 2 mana, and Punishing Fire kills my threat.



10. GoblinSmashmaster: Drossforge Bridge, Swamp, Isochron Scepter, Geth's Verdict ​ WD 4-1


When I am OTP, Tremble makes my threat and Tremble takes 1 of your lands (sacrifice, not destroy),
locking you out so my Spirit wins, regardless of whether those Trembles are the same or different.

when I am OTD, I don't lose:
To possibly win, you must Imprint. ​ If you do, then Tremble stops you from activating Scepter.

when I am OTD, I don't win:
You play T1 Bridge and T2 just Swamp. ​ I have to cast Tremble to make my threat, and you
float mana in response. ​ I create my Spirit, and then the Verdict is that I have to sacrifice it.



11. FTW: Ruins of Trokair, Swamp, Castigate, Curse of Leeches ​ WL 3-3

When I am OTD, I get Cursed and lose. ​ When I am OTP, Tremble makes
my threat and Tremble takes 1 of your lands, locking you out so my
Spirit wins, regardless of whether those Trembles are the same or different.




2 DL ​ + ​ 2 DD ​ + ​ 2 WL ​ + ​ 1 WD ​ + ​ 3 WW ​ ​ ​ = ​ ​ ​ 34 points

It took me until I was working out my results to realize that if my opponent just waits, then I
must Tremble against nothing to make my threat. ​ Fortunately, me having _two_ - which I had
_intended_ to be against double-storage-land decks - lets me win most of the time against waiting.

disagreement:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

1. Asthereal (TO): Blooming Marsh, Chatter of the Squirrel, Pendelhaven, Mind Rake
For some reason I totally missed that this didn't get banned and looks like a better version of my deck. That said, Pendelhaven means neither of us can make progress even if you do have 2 Squirrels to my 1. DD

2-2

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
me

---

Why can't Asthereal make progess? ​ Asthereal double-attacks, and if
you block then Asthereal pumps whichever one you block. ​ That means
Asthereal's Squirrels never die, so you take at least 1 damage each turn.
If you attack, then your attack is for 2 and you take 3 next turn.
This leads to a race which is closer than I would've thought, but is still won by Asthereal.
(However, it only gets to 2v1 in the first place when Asthereal is OTP.)

disagreement:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by alphastryk

2. alphastryk: Pendelhaven, Urborg, Tendrils of Despair, Chatter of the Squirrel
me

...

9. maxx!: Volcanic Island, Grove of the Burnwillows, Punishing Fire, Spell Pierce
You can always Spell Pierce my Tendrils and I can't beat PFire. LL

0-6

---

I get that you do when you are OTP:
Don't bother with Tendrils or Flashback, and only use Pendelhaven defensively.

maxx can't cast T1 PF, so you untap before maxx can cast TF. ​ maxx also can't cast PF twice
without untapping twice in-between, since that takes 4 mana for the castings and 1 mana
for the return, whereas maxx untapping only once leaves maxx with only 4 mana to spend.
Thus Pendelhaven keeps your Squirrel alive, so you will win on T21 if maxx doesn't win before then.
17 cycles of PF ​ hand -> graveyard -> hand ​ leaves you with 3 life, so maxx
would need to cast PF 19 times to win. ​ However, maxx must untap _twice_
between castings of PF, so maxx can't possibly get 19 castings before T37.


However, I agree when you are OTD:

Your spells are both Sorceries whereas maxx does everything at instant-speed,
so to avoid losing, you would need to either resolve Tendrils or make progress.
maxx plays T1 Volcanic Island, and Pierces Chatter from hand. ​ You flashback Chatter,
leaving you tapped out, so your Squirrel gets Punished with Fire before you can cast Tendrils.
Thus you can't do either of the necessary things, so you do lose this one.