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I was wondering how you guys use vendilion clique against storm and sneak&show. Do you use her more as a disruption element or as a clock? I feel like a clock is often better, since it forces storm and sneak and show to react. Also it makes some cards in the respective decks much worse like ad nauseam and griselbrand.
Obviously this all depends on the situation and every game is different.
Sometimes Storm/TES players like to do 1-2 punch. As in they lead with a bait, hoping you to counter it.Quote:
Originally Posted by decan
Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor
or
Burning Wish/Grim Tutor -> holding Agony in hand (trying to go manual, assume enough mana ramp)
or
Ad Nausem -> holding Past in Flame in hand (assume enough mana ramp)
Hence, Clique when bait spell on stack pretty much would end Storm player's game plan. Obviously, if you have Karakas in play, you definitely should use Clique as a clock. There is a potential risk when you proactively Clique at Storm player's eot, the possibility of them to dark ritual into Ad Nauseam in response is still there. There're no strict rules as to how to use Clique as disruption or as a clock, all depends.
This is the right way to sideboarding in this matchup?Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
I have a tons of problems vs MUD.
Normally from my side:
1 Crafdigger's cage
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Concil's Judgment
1 Pyroclasm
2 Wear Tear
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
I side in:
2 Engineered Explosives (Chalice - converted casting cost is 0)
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Council's Judgment
2 Wear Tear
And, only two times, 1 Crafdigger's Cage vs Kuldotha.
But..
- Counterbalance? In / out?
The big of MUD deck have a converted casting cost very high and it's no easy to reveal the right card with balance...
- Ponder? In / Out?
Is right to side out the Ponder?
In my opinion MUD have some possibility to cast a Chalice set to 1 at the first turn (4 tomb + 4 city).
If we play 4 sensei + 4 brainstorm + 4 swords + 4 ponder we have 16 cards with converted casting cost 1...and this is not a great situation...
I'm wrong?
Not really, they have usually 2 xantid's max, and I still have 4 removal spells that hit it. EE is overcosted and hard to tap out out for, but pyroclasm and terminus are not bad. Also, counterbalance and top don't care about xantid. Countering xantid swarm with a counter and FoW are not bad either if miracles is ahead or has a snapcaster. Clique can also block it and provide some mild disruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
STP is obviously ideal since you can cast it the same turn they cast the swarm without tapping out during your turn, but I cannot justify it over terminus to deal with 2 SB cards.
Vs storm. As soon as you have 3 mana at their end step you should probably play vendilion clique. The only thing they can do to punish you directly is if they go for AdN in response, which is pretty rare and not that great. It's a myth that we should allways take the control role in this matchup. Without a CB/hatebear in play our counterspells just trade 1-for-1 with their discard. Limit their options to set up a perfect hand. Same goes for Sneak and show allthough clique in response to show and tell is sometimes juicy, but what if they put sneak attack on the stack and their hand is 2 griselbrand? Now you are likely tapped out and can't stop them with counterspells. In this scenario it would be better to play clique in their drawstep but I would advice against that also since it often limits your mana to play counterspells. Only Clique them in their draw step if you know EXACTLY what they need otherwise wait until end of turn. I would only slam my clique asap if I have nothing else in my hand to stop them with.
EDIT: I would also like to add that it's often correct to ignore Trinisphere. They normally only play one spell each turn anyways. It's rougher for the 4-ponder build but I still think it's ok. Chalice on 1 is also not that great if you landed a top allready. Instead of wasting resources on this you should save the force of will for their first actual threat and then bounce their second with jace. They have a low threat density so a few counterspells and Jace should be allright assuming they have a normal draw...
thanks for the good answerS.
I was thinking about dig through time. The card seems really great especially at finding important sideboard cards. However i have trouble finding a slot for it. Basically its 3 jaces or 2 jaces and 1 DTT. I was wondering what the advantages of jaces/Dtt are.
A toplevel european player told me DTT would be much better in a good meta (meaning much blue lol) than jace which he boards out often.
He told me the topic was discussed with philipp before. Maybe philipp could write a few sentences concerning this topic.
I was always of the opinion that jace is almost never bad (maybe against lots of lightning bolt and pyroblasts.
When I board for mud I try to keep my answers as generic as possible. I dont like cards like cage and priest that only hit a few cards in their deck. These cut off a line of play, but are nowhere near show stopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
I agree with the 1 drops bit. Chalice is a pain. I do like CB against them as we are equipped to deal with things like worker and greaves, though it doesn't hit larger threats like karn. This might be blasphemy and totally wrong though.
Clique and Entreat do a lot of work in this matchup. They have very few ways to deal with clique, and an eot entreat can close out games.
There are usually 3 Xantids in the Sideboard dood and you have 2 Terminus, an Explosives and a single Pyroclasm to deal with it. How long do you think you have time to dig for and resolve Explosives/Pyroclasm or setup Terminus here? Have you considered that forcing the Swarm does not keep your opponent off from comboing? Is your argument that you can ignore Xantid because you run CB + Top in your 60 and see it as given that these cards make it onto the field in time and stay there despite of Decay?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I guess Phils post should have made it pretty clear that the main problem in this matchup is anticipating what you have to face postboard and respect the angles of attack so you are never sitting across a certain Sourcer slapping you with Trygon Predators and Xantids while you stare at your Blue Elemental Blasts and Flusterstorms ;D
Just a quick question: I've been reading up on sideboard suggestions against UR Delver (trying to improve the MU) and I've come across something I just can't get my head around.
Reid Duke, in his Miracles primer, suggests boarding in V. Cliques in the match up. Does anyone know the logic behind this? It seems a bit slow, and also eats red blast and bolt which seems like something you don't want to tap out for on T3 (I assume most UR players keep bolts postboard). Alternatively, if you draw Clique late, I think it would be way less high impact than what you're boarding out (i.e. Jace). It may be the case that in Reid's sideboard he is just boarding out cards that are strictly worse, but keeping at least one force and Jace seems better than the cliques? Can anyone explain why these should be boarded in?
Thanks!
I'm not sure about Reid Duke's suggestion siding in Vendilon Clique as it pertains to his build. I haven't kept his lists because at this point I'm sold on playing Ein's lists. In relation to a 4-Ponder build, I would NOT board in Vendilon Clique. A three mana Red Blastable and boltable creature doesn't sound like where you want to be. In this MU you just want all the most efficient answers possible. So far I've been taking the approach of siding in all my cheap board interaction and answers to sulfuric vortex from the board in this MU and siding out bad stuff like Force, Jace, counterspell and probably a plains as well. Basically you're minimizing win conditions postboard for more efficient and cheap interaction. Grind them out till you get a point where you can get countertop online. Then find some way to kill them whether it be Entreat or Snapcaster beats after getting countertop online. Hope this was helpful. Let me and the rest of the thread know if you have any further questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by swordstoplowsharesguy
@Hrothgar
I play a 1of Humility on Magic Online. If you encounter more MUD than usual, i'd recommend one playing too. It's the best card against MUD, and it's also good in other MU's.
You need to answer swarm before they untap obviously. There is not point in forcing swarm if your opponent knows you have no other reaction. I am not saying you can just ignore swarm or post board I have all the answers to it every time. I am just saying that it is not worth keeping in a card does literally nothing but answer swarm (STP). There are more generalized cards that can also answer swarm less efficiently and I'll take the risk of losing to swarm and run those.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Given todays creature structure, would it be unreasonable to consider swapping some Plows and Terminus' for Bolts and Pyroclasms to deal with the issue above while reducing the problem of dead cards in the opener? I did this during the time I ran 4 Entreats to counter opposing aggro rather than sweepingQuote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
Humility seems great. I'll give it a shot in paper. I've never come up vs MUD on MODO but I know at least 3 people locally who consider it their primary deck.
Went to a local Legacy tournament with 23 players and got 4th place with Miracles. First I'll start with the list I was playing.
Lands 23
1 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
1 Karakas
1 Mountain
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
Creatures 1
1 Vendilion Clique
Spells 36
4 Brainstorm
1 Council's Judgment
3 Counterbalance
2 Counterspell
3 Dig Through Time
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
Sideboard 15
1 Batterskull
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Pyroclasm
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Swan Song
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wear // Tear
This list is 74/75 the 1st place list from the Eternal Festival Tokyo - 2014 piloted by Kawakita Shirou. Reid Duke piloted a similar list in the Player's Championship, so I wanted to give Dig Through Time a try in a competitive tournament setting.
Round 1 ANT Storm 2-0
We only played two games because I got to stick Sensei's Divining Top and Counterbalance both games and he just couldn't manage to beat it. In Game 1, I did get to hardcast an Entreat the Angels for 1 Angel and that Angel went the distance. I love it when that happens!
Round 2 Burn 2-1
This was a round of 3 very very close games. Had the Force of Will when he tried to Sulfuric Vortex me. Game 2, he comes out of the gates with double Goblin Guide and an Eidolon of the Great Revel. I never could find a Terminus. Game 3, my hand was full of counterspells, and he had to take some risky lines of play when it didn't pay off when he got countered.
Round 3 Jeskai Ascendancy Combo 2-0
I was honestly afraid of this deck because I never played against it before and I figured once he got the train rolling there would be no stopping him. Thankfully there was. He scooped Game 1 to a CounterTop lock. Game 2 went forever. But he tried to combo and when he had 2 cards in hand and a Jeskai Ascendancy in play, he tried to cast Treasure Cruise with double Fatesticher on the table. I countered the Treasure Cruise and then EoT resolved a large Entreat the Angels that killed him.
Round 4 Sneak and Show 0-2
What can I say about Sneak and Show. This version of Miracles has a really tough time beating a resolved Sneak Attack. That's what happened both games.
Round 5 Sneak and Show 2-1
This deck is really hard to beat with my current configuration. Game 1 He cast Overmaster and in response I cast Vendilion Clique and saw Sneak Attack, Griselbrand, and Show and Tell. I took Sneak Attack (which may have been incorrect) assuming I cannot beat the card in the match. He drew another Sneak Attack, resolved it and killed me. Game 2 he got mana screwed pretty early which allowed me to safely resolve a Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull stole the game. Game 3 was more of a nail biter. But I was able to counter just enough stuff, then I resolved an Entreat the Angels. We went to turns but I swung for lethal just in time on my turn 3.
Cut to Top 4
I was actually surprised to have done so well in this tournament. I'm really familiar with the Counterbalance style decks since I've been playing them since CounterTop Thopters back in the day. However, I knew a lot of the people who were coming, and a lot of them knew me, so I figured everyone was going to be gunning for me since they knew I love to play Miracles and because the last time we were all at a tournament together, I got 2nd place with Miracles losing to UB Tezzeret in the finals. But I got to Top 4, which consisted of Belcher, Burn, Sneak and Show, and Miracles. I got paired up against Sneak and Show, the same guy who I lost to in the Swiss.
Game 1 was a blowout against me. He cast Show and Tell, I FoW'd. I cast Counterbalance, he FoW'd. He cast Sneak Attack, activated to put in an Emrakul. I flip Terminus during his Beginning of Combat Step and bottom the Emrakul. Next turn he activated again, Emrakul, I lose all my permanants.
Game 2 I kept a 1 land hand (Scalding Tarn) with double Force of Will, Vendilion Clique, Sensei's Divining Top, Brainstorm, and Counterspell. I kept because I figured Top and Brainstorm could find me the lands I needed to make this hand amazing against him. With 23 lands in the deck the odds were in my favor. End Step Brainstorm found no lands. Top found no lands. So all I could do was FoW things, which I FoW'd an Overmaster and a Show and Tell. He cast Sneak Attack and passed. I finally found a land. It was a Flooded Strand. And this turn, I could have cast Blue Elemental Blast on Sneak Attack but I forgot, as by this point, I was so frustrated on not being able to find land, that my decisions started to be affected by it. He cast a cantrip the next turn and didn't activate Sneak Attack so I end step Blue Blasted it. That resolved thankfully. I resolve Counterbalance which leaves me tapped out for the turn with the idea that I wanted to draw Island next turn and that I'd be willing to flip Top on top in case he cast a cantrip. However, he cast another Sneak Attack and I shook his hand after I told him that the Jace was 2nd from the top.
I ended up in 4th place overall and had a great time playing in the tournament. Sneak and Show is a really tough matchup and my last 3 rounds consisted of nothing but. However, I know I am capable of not letting my frustrations affect my decision making. I think had I not let my emotions get the best of me, I would have left Jace on top anticipating another Sneak Attack, untapping, and spinning the Top to draw the Island and possibly get back into this game. I know I am capable of this play, but I was really frustrated by how Top and Brainstorm and the number of turns I was still alive vs Sneak and Show, that I couldn't find land. Sometimes we have to learn lessons the hard way and in the future I'm going to try my best to keep a level head even during the most hopeless of situations.
1) How much mana did you pay on average for the DTT? The number of cards you can delve away seems very low.Quote:
Originally Posted by drocker23
2) Did you consider a pithing needle in the board? It could replace swan song and really help vs sneakNshow. I would personally never play miracles without it in my board:)
Thanks for the report!
Questions: How was swan song? Idk if I'd just rather another BEB or something along those lines. Also, why RIP over Containment Priest? Priest would help greatly improve your S&S matchup
Containment Priest - great card vs Sneak and Show, Aether Vial based decks, Reanimator.
Imho Stoneforge plan vs S&S is not a great plan...
Article/Report is out! :)
Greetings
1) I actually found very few times where I would cast Dig Through Time in any given matchup. And in fact, I boarded it out quite a few times which may or may not have been correct, but I'd say I was typically casting Dig Through Time for about 3 or 4 mana each time and that's including the UU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
2) I have played Pithing Needle before in my board and I agree it is a very good card. I mainly made the card choices I did because I wanted to test out some cards that I've never tried before like Swan Song and Dig Through Time. I didn't bother to tweak the decklist I copied a whole lot prior to the tournament because it had a lot of interesting options I wanted to mess around and experiment with. In the future, I'm pretty certain my card choices will change from the list I played in the tournament.