[Deck] Death and Taxes

While NobleH does seem like a good fit for the deck since getting some of these 3 drops out early is nice (and the exalted trigger on our first strikers or flyers to boot)... I do think that the chrome mox idea has a lot of merit.

Has anybody ever played chrome mox in D&T before? Being able to Thalia or RIP or Ethersworn or SFM on T1 seems great; and then following it up with a T3 play like prelate or THC to really lock the game out... GEESH...

Or even a T1 rishadan port activation or Wasteland + Mox->Vial!

I guess the problem has always been since we didn't have card advantage a card like Chrome Mox was almost unplayable. But with recruiter + SFM maybe we finally have enough card advantage to consider it?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Here's my latest attempt at a list before they decide to spoil even better cards for us:

3 Mom

4 Thalia 1.0
4 Sfm
2 Revoker
1 Spirit of the lab

2 Flickerwisp
4 Recruiter
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Thalia HC
2 Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Magus

4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
4 STP
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

SB:
2 RIP
2 PTE
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Prelate
1 Relic Warder
1 Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Devout Witness
1 Mirran Crusader

I could see doing any of the following:
- Relic Warder or Devout Witness main or another Revoker main. Relic Warder is stronger than Revoker in the mirror, which will be more prevalent.
- Moving Mangara, Magus or Thalia HC to SB
- Going to 3 Recruiters...but...eh
- 4th Mom again, even more important w/ Prelate
- Trying to squeeze in a Wingmare in the 75
- Trying to find a late game 'bomb' SB tutor target to replace Pia/Kiran, though I can't imagine there's going to be one nearly as good.


I expect the Rest in Peaces to be replaced with the 1W Rest in Peace bear they will surely reveal in 10 minutes. Probably will have protection from red.

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Nice list, I have quite a bit of respect for you as a player so I wanted to ask:

Have you considered going down to 3 SFM?
Also, is Magus of the moon really playable in mono white?
Is maindeck banisher priest better than the 3rd flickerwisp?

Thanks

Yeah, I think a SfM would be the cut if I put in a Relic-Warder. SfM is obviously the most important card in the mirror, but if you swap it for a Relic-Warder you're not really worse off, probably better. (T2 Relic your Vial is really hard to come back from.) I've played with 3 SfMs, I think it's more justifiable when you only have 2 equipment main. (Since if you have one in your opening hand or draw into one, you're going to be drawing into Squires pretty quickly.)

I'm not 100% sure about Magus, but I think it's absolutely worth testing. I can say that I rarely want or need to have a Plateau out with my current build, and generally when I do, it's to cast Recruiter not Magus. I get the sense that it's roughly as risky as a one-of Batterskull, and the payoff is generally "you just win the game."

Having played with Fiend Hunter for quite a while now, I've found myself wishing it were there as a Recruiter target whenever I take it out of the deck. Instant speed removal is a pretty essential silver bullet, especially vs Eldrazi, which is one of the only matchups that hasn't been significantly improved by new cards.

This is really entertaining to watch, like seeing a scientist work hard on a hypothesis for a couple days, and then over and over having to crumble it up and toss it out midway through, as new planets keep getting discovered every three days.

Here are my thoughts on Sanctum Prelate:

http://www.thrabenuniversity.com/?p=486

I think thalia and sfm should stay at 4. Both are too good to not drop on turn 2

Food for thought:

There was an interesting regarding a Vial Maverick list also featuring Collected Company, which kinda is a hybrid between D&T and (Vial) Maverick.

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Originally Posted by screallix

I think it's time again for some vial maverick action.
One argument against aether vial in maverick was the inability of fetching the right toolbox targets.
with this awesome card you'll be able to both generate card advantage and search for the right tools.

also: when cutting green sun zenith we're able to play more creatures thus making collected company better.

imagine:
#1 Vial on 2, Vial on 3:
opp: Terminus trigger
response, recruiter into gaddock teeg

#2 vial on 3, vial on 3
vial in recruiter into flicker wisp target recruiter into flicker wisp rinse repeat value.

#3 vial on 3, vial on 3
collected company into recruiter into eternal witness target collected company #infinitevalue

my first thoughts:
cutting the 4ofss to 3offs to make room for 4 recruiter + 4 flickerwisp

core:
4 aether vial
4 swords to plowshares
4 collected company
4 recruiter of the guard
4 flickerwisp

3 mother of runes
3 knight of the reliquary
3 thalia, guardian of thraben

etc. you get my point

although finding stoneforge mystic is great, i dont think running more non-creatures is good for collected company.
didn't someone made a calculation about how many creatures are needed for a good % in hitting 2 creatures?

~screallix

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I'm quite intrigued by the possibility that open up with Collected Company, which gets kinda silly with Eternal Witness chaining.

I tested a proxy version of the list I posted against friends playing Grixis Delver, BUG Delver and Aggro Loam tonight and it went great.

Prelate was one of the cards I recruitered for most often, no surprise, it's easily one of the strongest cards in the deck, 2 might not be enough. Getting to do the broken Imperial Taxes recruiter plays with a Plains into Plains manabase felt like I was cheating. 3 Caverns is also really where you want to be because resolving Prelate is almost comparable to resolving Magus.

As much as I like the new Thalia, I'm beginning to wonder if it really makes sense as a singleton tutor target. Between hosers like Prelate and various sideboard cards, and the sheer card advantage of flickerwisps and co, how often is it going to be just what you want?

I'll go on the record and say that I don't believe in the Collected Company idea, at least not in a D&T shell.

What might be worth considering, I think, is a singleton Ranger of Eos - to chain into from a recruiter.

Yeah, I pretty much agree Luca. I played a lot of games last night and I never found myself tutoring for her. I tutored for: Prelate (a lot), SfM, Magus, Flickerwisp, Stonecloaker, Mirran Crusader and was a turn away from needing to tutor for Banisher Priest one game. I did have a game where THC was strong t3 on the play, Cavern'd out vs Delver, but it was naturally drawn. The question is how much value a real silver bullet replacement would bring in her spot.

I don't think Ranger of Eos fetches enough. Spending a bunch of turns to get a 1/1 a 3/2 and 2 Moms seems a little too durdly and not something that you'd regularly be looking to do. I don't see any 4 drops that seem playable for this new build.

which magus are people with referring to?

Moon.

Do you really need SFM at all? Couldn't you just use THC as a beater and use the 6 more slots for more toolbox creatures?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann

Do you really need SFM at all? Couldn't you just use THC as a beater and use the 6 more slots for more toolbox creatures?

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Yes.
Nope.
SFM is the muscle of the deck, it turns every 1/1 into a threat, suppresses enemy swarms and stabilizes against fast aggro. There is no substitute, now more than ever.

You need SFM, but I've been running 3 copies in Imperial from the get-go (it does make the pseudo-mirror harder, though, since you're mostly just racing towards Jitte), and that number worked out to be just fine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Here's my latest attempt at a list before they decide to spoil even better cards for us:

3 Mom

4 Thalia 1.0
4 Sfm
2 Revoker
1 Spirit of the lab

2 Flickerwisp
4 Recruiter
1 Banisher Priest
1 Mangara
1 Thalia HC
2 Prelate
1 Stonecloaker
1 Magus

4 Vial
1 Jitte
1 Sofi
4 STP
4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
3 Cavern
9 Plains

SB:
2 RIP
2 PTE
1 Dismember
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Prelate
1 Relic Warder
1 Revoker
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Containment Priest
1 Devout Witness
1 Mirran Crusader

I could see doing any of the following:
- Relic Warder or Devout Witness main or another Revoker main. Relic Warder is stronger than Revoker in the mirror, which will be more prevalent.
- Moving Mangara, Magus or Thalia HC to SB
- Going to 3 Recruiters...but...eh
- 4th Mom again, even more important w/ Prelate
- Trying to squeeze in a Wingmare in the 75
- Trying to find a late game 'bomb' SB tutor target to replace Pia/Kiran, though I can't imagine there's going to be one nearly as good.


I expect the Rest in Peaces to be replaced with the 1W Rest in Peace bear they will surely reveal in 10 minutes. Probably will have protection from red.

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Hello, I would move Magus to the side and Batterskull back to the main. Cut Spirit of the Labyrinth entirely (feels like cantrip decks are answered by prelate at one) and go back to four moms to protect your silver bullets.

Will be testing the following list

4x Mother of Runes

3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic

3x Flickerwisp
3x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Sanctum Prelate

2x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
9x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares

Thoughts:

• 4 moms to protect silver bullets
• 2 THC as beaters(maybe should be a split of crusader/THC since we have recruiter)
• Only 3 silver bullets, I really want to start slow on this instead of overloading with corner cases
• Would like to fit a Stonecloaker(maybe for a flickerwisp but it doesn't seem right)
• Would like to fit a spirit of the lab to increase 2 drops(maybe for the mangara)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joande

Hello, I would move Magus to the side and Batterskull back to the main. Cut Spirit of the Labyrinth entirely (feels like cantrip decks are answered by prelate at one) and go back to four moms to protect your silver bullets.

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I have to jump in on this discussion. Lots of very talented minds here.

There are some question-marks for both DnT and Green and Taxes. For starters, I think we already have an over-saturation of quality white-based hatebears. These new leaks are gravy. Without being flamed to death, let's acknowledge that we have a plethora of good/great options. The bigger question is playstyle and identity. Do you want to be flexible and reactive? Or do you want to be locking the game down while being aggressive? I'm sure there are shades of other strategies sprinkled in between those 2.

From my perspective, I like Maverick/Green lists that can accelerate 3 mana as early as turn 2. There's something to having Noble/Deathrite. Playstyle sways my own preference.

I also mentioned in the Maverick thread it would probably be unwise to play GSZ/Recruiter/Vial/CC all in the same list. Enablers and "gas" are strong. But you don't want to dilute your actual business spells down so much.

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Currently, I'd pencil in this list as a starting point for me. I prefer to be aggressive to the tune of Maverick's wasteland-thalia combination backed by KotR. I think Collective Company could work, but it's quite an expensive spell.

GW Hatebears
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4x GSZ
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sylvan Library
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
/12

4x Mother of Runes
4x Noble/DRS
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Qasali Pridemage
/15

4x Knight of the Reliquary
6x Flex**
/10
**Recruiter of the Guard / Thalia, Heretic Cathar / Sanctum Prelate / Flickerwisp

23x Lands
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I loved Thalia, HC this past weekend. However, there is something to be said about 3x Recruiter + 1x for those 3cc bullets. I think the Tax-Pony (Wingmare?) is outclassed by Prelate. Flickerwisp is better with Vial. Knight is just ridiculous everytime I run a hatebear shell with her (again, preference and playstyle). A vial-centric list would have 3x KotR, no dorks, no gsz in exchange for vial itself, flickerwisp, and some more 2cc helpers.

I am pretty sure we are all going to want a single Mirran Crusader. Against the opponents it is good against it is darn near the perfect card. If Prelate is as good as iatee feels it is, we have some SERIOUS soul searching to do.

-How good/necessary is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, really? Do we NEED 4? I have had games where one was stuck in my hand from time to time.
-Could Revoker be good as a singleton?
-Does the sideoard start to look like a creature collection now? I feel that this is a particularly strong direction to go.
-Should we go to 24 lands to support the new direction? A single Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox could be substantial.

Also, considering the inevitable uptick in Massacre appearing in sideboards, we really have to consider Flagstones of Trokair again.