[Deck] The Rock

Okay, i will do a quick recap of yesterday, but i don't remember the details. I used the exact list damionblackgear used here :http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=32571
and i must say i was pleased with it. I went 3-2-1, i beat Dredge /w Ghasts, White Stax and Thopter Control. I lost to Merfolk and Progenitus Elves and drew with New horizons. Quick recap:

Against Mono White Stax:
Game1- i win the roll, Thoughtseize, land an early Confidant. He hasn't got really much (like Ghostly Prisons etc.) and i beat myself to 2, when i finally reveal SDT. Then i win with the cards i drew in the meantime.. (i boarded +4 Leyline, +3 Kitchen Finks, -3 Armageddon, -1 Tabernacle, -3 Exploration?)
Game2- i keep 2 land hand that is fetch, basic, Exploration, Crucible and maybe Deed plus Knight. I trust the false gods and i don't see the 3rd land until he lands Elspeth and Armageddons and Elspeth's friends beat my skull in.
Game3- He plays early Chalice @1 and @2 and i have literally all 3+CC drops in my hand so its ok by me. I get Crucible O-Ringed, but stick Knight and Finks. He locks the battlefield with Magus of the Tabernacle and Ghostly Prison and i land Deed. I think that then he Armageddoned and i blew my Deed. Bord gets cleaned, i get back my Crucible and in short order i play BSA and wreck him.
1-0-0

Against Merfolk:
Game1- i land Confidant and he has something like Muta-Vial, Island-Standstill and then 2 more Mutas.. he plays some Lords and SSS and i can't really controll it all. The only thing i could would be to Armageddon and die to 2 lords, so i didn't. He also spills the beer on the table, so i pack it in quickly :D
Game2- he has jitte, but i delay it with Kor Haven and draw Deed, then play Knight ftw.
Game3- he has 3 Mutas, Cursecatcher, 1 Merrow Lord and Jitte. I misplay when i try to Vindicate that Jitte, only to get it Cursecatched. I knew i lost the game right there, but played it out. I had Goyf and played out some Confidants for fodder, but topdecks didn't provide answers. I was told i also misplayed, cause i had 1 Wasteland in my hand (the only card), since he was sending Mutas /w Jitte in. My reasoning at the moment was, that he had lots of power on the board and if i showed him that i have no answers, he would insta-gib me (i was at 12 or so).
1-1-0

Against New Horizons:
Game1- i don't get no threats, only answers, and he lands one Goyf that gets there.
Game2- i think he boarded out his counterspells and boarded in RWMs and Paths, maybe also sth. else? I board like -3 Armageddon +3 Choke.
I land early Choke that kept busy like 6 islands through his entire game, but he had 2 green lands active, so he was pretty much in the game.
I proceed to Toughtseize/Edict/Vindicate like 9 creatures on his side with my active SDT. I misplay when he Paths my critter (Bob maybe?) and i accidently shuffle my Top in (facepalm), but then i rip it off the top again. Laughs all over the place, and i land one big Knight.
Game3- no time left, thanks to my proactive play in 2nd game, so we drew.
1-1-1

Against Progenitus Elves
Game1- he has two elves (1 lord with forestwalk), i land Tabernacle and he forgets to pay the taxes, so i win with 2 Goyfs. (i board -3 Armageddon, +3 Finks)
Game2- he gets Progenitus out on second turn, so his board is 1 big Hydra and Llanowar plus 1 or 2 forests. I have Vindicate and Edict right there. I think the correct play would be to untap, pray for the 3rd land and Vindicate the Elf, then pray some more that he didn't have another elf and Edict his ass. Since i felt that that much prayer against GreenHorde.dec wouldn't do much, i Edicted Llanowar away, hoped for another, didn't get it, Cantriped Canopy and drew blank, so that was game.
Game3- i mull on 6 i think and get some meh hand with Exploration and Goyf. He lands 3 Lords plus Llanowar and beats me into pulp.
1-2-1

Against Thopter Control
Game1- long game, we fight over CB and other stuff, but he insists on landing it. Then i play BSA and Goyf (it resolves, since he has no Top) and win. (-3 Exploration?, +3 Choke)
Game2- this game lasted even longer. He CBs my Crucible with Tutored Crucible of his own, then plays it. He fetches out a bunch of lands, has 1 Ruins and EE (1 more Ruins in hand) and one angry Assembly Worker. I get my top to stick, he stcks his, too. He EEs my Knight, but also his Crucible, since he has Ruins on the board. I find myself into Primal Command, Command away his SDT and GY, so his Crucible gets useless. I spin my Top and find Primal Command and Armageddon. I Command his Top and GY away (bye, Crucible) and also Armageddon. We both get Tops, i had mine on the top and he rips his. I am on 2 life, but he lacks 1 or 2 turns to get me, since hre had Foundry in his grip.
2-2-1

Against LED based Bloodghast Dredge
Game1- i win the roll. Toughtseize him and see: 1x Study, 1x Breaktrough, 1x Undiscovered Paradise, 1x Gemstone Mine, 2x Bridge, 1x Iona. I take Study, then next turn, i take Breaktrough. 3rd turn Knight, 4th turn Geddon and i have 9/9 Knight and he has nothing. (-3 Armageddon, -4 Toughtseize, +3Finks, +4 Leyline)
Game 2- we both mull to 5, where i get 2x Wasteland, 1x Top, 1x Fetch, 1x Confidant. He gets some dredges and Ghasts, one Bridge in GY, too. I waste his rainbow land and he lands Dredge2 land, but no action. I reveal Finks and draw Edict. He stops his Ghast beats after i play Finks, i Edict my Finks, he looses his bridge, then i beat some more and Edict his lone Moeba.
My starting 7 here had Leyline, Karakas and SDT, but i shipped that hand away. Later i was told that was stellar hand, but i didn't feel like i want to play that hand out, since it had all 3 drops and ino gas. Would you play that hand?

3-2-1
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Overall, i had a blast with this deck. I could do a lot better, if only i tested the deck some more (time constraints). I must say i hated Explorations all day long, since i never really had a chance to combo it with Crucible. I also hated my odds agains the two tribal matchups, since i thought i could win, but w/e.
If i played it again (i hardly believe that, since i don't have the nerve to borrow Tabernacle and 40+ other cards for that deck again:D), i would change:
-1 Exploration
+1 Pernicious Deed
That's pretty much it. I would leave the board as it is, i think it's just fine.
Thanks for the fun deck, damion :P

Congrats on the tournament. the Elves match seemed to be a rough one I don't know if I would've used the edict vs them instead of the vindicate but that's personal preference.

I was wondering:

What you boarded vs Merfolk?

Did you have 2 Primal Commands? Since you used two during the same game (Thopter, G2). If you did, What did you cut for it or did you go up to 61 in the main? I personally have started to love the cards ability to shift a game but, I don't know if I want a second.

Did you not like the Bog? You never put it in vs the graveyard based matches.

Did you notice the differences in how the deck functions depending on how you decide to use it? I counted about 6 different 'modes' that I've switched into and I'm excited to be able to use them at will. I wish I could show you but it's kinda hard to. Just keep at it. *I'm interested to see where someone else takes the deck.

I'm currently lending the deck to others in my meta to see if the curse is true. "You're the only one who can pilot your decks correctly!" - A couple of friend to me about this and 2 other decks...

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The Elves match seemed to be a rough one I don't know if I would've used the edict vs them instead of the vindicate but that's personal preference.

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Yea, i regretted that move.. it's highly unlikely that he would not play another elf, but i should at least try. He played sloppy and missed opportunities like a blind junkie, but i think he would get the message if i Vindicated his elf.

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What you boarded vs Merfolk?

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I boarded in 3x Choke and out Exploration, i think. I didn't need/see them game 2. Then. Chokes were among chaff on the top in the 3rd game, but he had 1 Island and 3 Mutas out (besides Vial), and i didn't bother.

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Did you have 2 Primal Commands? Since you used two during the same game (Thopter, G2). If you did, What did you cut for it or did you go up to 61 in the main? I personally have started to love the cards ability to shift a game but, I don't know if I want a second.

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I wrote the matches down wrong there. I resolved 1 command 1st game and 1 command 2nd game, but somehow wrote it down wrong. Should i fix that?

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Did you not like the Bog? You never put it in vs the graveyard based matches.

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I didn't wrote that down. I am not certain if i played it against Stax, but am 100% sure i played it against Dredge.

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Did you notice the differences in how the deck functions depending on how you decide to use it? I counted about 6 different 'modes' that I've switched into and I'm excited to be able to use them at will. I wish I could show you but it's kinda hard to. Just keep at it. *I'm interested to see where someone else takes the deck.

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Yeah, i liked it, i had some bad streaks. I am used to play more sorcery disruption and i wasted some key spells, only to realize i will have a hard chance winning.
I personally feel i would play one more Deed, but that's just me. I should really throw it against the meta and test it more, but at the moment im busy with my exams, but i will give it more time soon. Also, you were saying about that Survival menace you played against. Did you fix your board to fight it? How strong are Thorns in board and what kind of matchup do you get game 2 and 3? Is it winnable against ANT or still loopsided in their favor?
I think i didn't execute all the modes too well, it's hard to say i played perfect alll the time. Tell me, what modes do you play? I played the Armageddon/Crucible mide against controls, agressive Knight/Finks supported by hate (postboard) against Dredge, Confidant/Top removal package against New Horizons. I think i could execute the Aggro matchups better, but they both had a really good streak of lords and i just didn't get anything. Or mulligan more..

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I'm currently lending the deck to others in my meta to see if the curse is true. "You're the only one who can pilot your decks correctly!" - A couple of friend to me about this and 2 other decks...

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It's fun, yes. I currently don't own FoWs and any blue strategy seems out of my reach at the time. It's also really awkward to borrow cards like Tabernacle, so i can't really build that deck irl. It's not like i used it more than twice all day (against Mrfolk too), but i know it would be pretty insane if i really needed it.
People seemed interested and laughed at Angel and Command, but i used them to win some games, so i guess they are strong (they, combined solved more games than Knight did, he was answered most of the time).

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I boarded in 3x Choke and out Exploration, i think. I didn't need/see them game 2. Then. Chokes were among chaff on the top in the 3rd game, but he had 1 Island and 3 Mutas out (besides Vial), and i didn't bother.

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Normally, I just swap out the Armageddons for chokes (1;1) and call it a day. I know Finks go in when you're on the draw *most games* to slow them down a little more. The goal is to simply land choke tabernacle. An active knight is usually game as it slows them 2 attackers instead of just 1. Just keep an eye out for stifle. Knight can fight you out of a back to basics battle if you didn't fetch basics.

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I wrote the matches down wrong there. I resolved 1 command 1st game and 1 command 2nd game, but somehow wrote it down wrong. Should i fix that?

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Don't worry about it. I was just confused. I don't know how many other people actually paid enough attention to my list to notice that there were 2 Primals in one game.

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Also, you were saying about that Survival menace you played against. Did you fix your board to fight it? How strong are Thorns in board and what kind of matchup do you get game 2 and 3? Is it winnable against ANT or still loopsided in their favor?

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Thorns are a special case. I like slowing the other decks down so I have a chance, but it's not the best chance. They normally just go for some stuff and solve the thorns. The best thing that could happen would be chaining the thorns (turn 2, 3, 4...). They do, however, give you game vs burn. Slowing them down with one or two can be the game. Especially if you get up to being able to cast things like Vindicate and Armageddon. It's also useful vs Enchantress as they only have 1 spell that it's not costing more.

I haven't had a chance to test prior to the changes. I think it's almost a dead game 1 but I'm not sure about 2 and 3. The board as it is should be able to deal with the biggest issues there and I'm starting to think I just have a better game than I thought against it. I'll find out more after I play against it. *I haven't actually played against it. he crushed the other Rock deck on turn 3 both games (+21 damage)...

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I think i didn't execute all the modes too well, it's hard to say i played perfect alll the time. Tell me, what modes do you play? I played the Armageddon/Crucible mide against controls, agressive Knight/Finks supported by hate (postboard) against Dredge, Confidant/Top removal package against New Horizons. I think i could execute the Aggro matchups better, but they both had a really good streak of lords and i just didn't get anything. Or mulligan more..

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I tend to try and make it mimic other decks instead of thinking of it as Aggro or Conrtol. It's easier to do those ones but, if you can pull it off, you can do more as the other decks than the types. *My favorites are Stax & Aggro-Loam.

*Side Note: I find it interesting that you're thinking of adding another Deed. I'm thinking of cutting it. I'm finding that it's less help in most of the current matches than I would like. I'm still figuring out what to put in it's place.

This thread is in serious need of a bump.

I watched live as Elias took Orr down with a really lucky Path, and I'm now in "What should I play at SCG Seattle?" Mode.

I have a choice of Bant Survival (no Iona combo), Armageddon Stax, Dutch Stax, or the Rock.

In case you guys haven't seen yet, the T16 had several Zoo, Several NO Bant, some Fish, 3 Lands, and a distinct absence of Reanimator. This is the list I've got so far for the Rock:

4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baneslayer Angel
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Eternal Witness
3 Birds of Paradise

2 Pernicious Deed
4 Vindicate
2 Pulse
4 Thoughtseize (I might go 2/2 Inquisiton split, since Zoo will be prevalent)
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena
4 Swords to Plowshares

Board:
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Bojuka Bog
0/2 Extirpate (Loam decks, Reanimator, Dredge)
4/2 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Choke
3 Path to Exile/Thelon's Curse/Engineered Plague/More combo hate if I play Extirpate

I'd like some help so we can make sure I do decently well :P

Also, if any of you would like to meet up at SCG Seattle, that'd be cool :D

-Matt

My first post in this thread although I play some version of the Rock quite often.

I usually play a more controllish version nowadays and yesterday I played the following at a 20-person tournament:

2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept heath
2Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Savannah
3 Marsh Flats
1 Volrath's Stronghold

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw

3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Vindicate
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Recurring Nightmare
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant

Sideboard:
4 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
3 Diabolic Edict
4 Extirpate
1 Path to Exile
1 Krosan Grip

I’ve changed my sideboard to the above the day before the tournament. I used to have a tutor board with Thorn and Canonist for the combo match-up but I expected very little combo at this tournament (and I think to have a chance at winning game 2&3 you need to dedicate half your board to the match) and a lot of Tribal (Gobs and Merfolk).
It turned out to be a good meta-call as there were 4 or 5 Goblin decks, 2 or 3 Merfolk, some CounterTop and only 1 ANT.
I wrote a small report, so here goes:

Round 1, Philip playing Rock
I recognised his name from a dutch Legacy boards and knew he plays The Rock as well.
Game 1, he leads with Scrubland, go and I blind Therapy him, naming Goyf (I had a hand with an answer for everything: 2 StP, 1 Vindicate and a Top…) and he shows me a hand with 1 Goyf, 1 Vindicate and nothing but land… I put my Top to work to find me a threath and it finds me 2 Goyf and a Confidant while the top of his deck gives him 2 Swords to Plowshares and a Path to Exile, nice topdeckskills. He lands a Mystic and gets Jitte, which I Vindicate. I let his Mystic beat me a bit while I try to find another creature. I eventually get a Finks down and later a Goyf which take the game.
I board in Krosan Grip and a Path to Exile for a Cabal Therapy and a Thoughtseize (I think).
We both have slow starts. He plays a Mystic and gets a Jitte for which I have the Vindicate. He extirpates my Vindicate and so he gets to see my hand which has a Deed among other things. He makes a mistake here as he continues to develop his board by playing Goyf, another Mystic and the SoLaS he fetched with Mystic. I am happy to go 4 for 1 with Deed and I easily take the game from there.
Round 2, Francesco playing Angry Tradewind (BANT) survival
I watched a bit of his first round match so I know he’s playing Tradewind Survival. He also plays Hierarch and RWM.
I have to mull to a decent six. I start out with Top while he plays Hierarch. He has a Survival on turn 2 and starts getting what he needs with Squee; while I play out 2 Confidants to hopefully keep up with Survival. I’m a bit low on mana and my Confidants get me down to 8. I find a Deed for his full board but he has all kind of shenanigans to save some stuff (Quirion Elves) and has another Survival in hand. I’m beaten to death by RWM, Tradewind Rider and some elves.
I board in the 4 Pate and the Krosan Grip. I’m not sure what I took out here; I know I was considering boarding out some discard as they’re very good turn 1 and 2 but after that quite useless in this matchup.
I lead with Therapy on Survival but he doesn’t have it this time. I do notice that he only has 2 lands and a Hierarch in hand and I already thought after the first game that the key to this matchup is denying him his mana. So on my second turn, I Plow the Hierarch and 2 early Goyfs beat him down before he can do anything.
I board in the PtE for a Thoughtseize.
He wins the 3rd game on combat tricks. He doesn’t get a Survival active but 2 Quirian Elves and Roffellos provide him with a ton of mana and Mom gets his RWM through my defense while I can’t get any damage in.
Round 3, Robbert with Merfolk.
On his first 3 turns, he plays out 3 Cursecatchers and a Jitte but when I play a Finks he doesn’t want to attack into it which allows me to Top into what I need. He draws nothing but lands (I think by the end of the game, he had about 10 Islands and a Mutavault in play). Deed clears the board and Elspeth powered beats take the game.
I board in the anti-Tribal package (aka 4 Plague + PtE) for 2 Elspeth, a Deed and a Therapy.
I land an early Plague but he has a LoA to keep his Cursecatcher and Adept alive. He gets some beats in but when I find Eternal Witness, Recurring Nightmare and StP, there’s not much he can do.
I’m 2-1 so if I win my next 2, I’m into the top 4.
Round 4 Jurre with Goblins
My first seven are something like Plains, Swamp, StP, C.Therapy, 2 x Eternal Witness and Elspeth. I mull this hand, my reasoning is that unless I topdeck 2 green mana sources or 1 green and a Goyf, I won’t be able to do much after the first 2 turns... (If anybody would have done otherwise, let me know why). 6 gives me no lands, neither does 5, nor 4. I keep the 4 with 2 StP. I draw my first land on turn 4 when he has more than lethal on the board…
I board in the standard package.
Game 2, I get a pretty decent 7. He makes some green men early on while I play a Top and a Goyf. Top shows me 2 Plagues on the top of my library so I think I’m in good shape when he drops Magus of the Moon. I make an enormous play mistake here. My lands are 1 Plains, 2 duals and a Windswept Heath. In response, I spun my Top to see if there’s was an answer for the Magus, there wasn’t and instead of fetching a Forest in response (which would’ve allowed me to play the second goyf in my hand and gave me another chance for Top to find a solution for the Magus), I said OK… Yep, I sure punted that one.
No top 4 for me today but there are a lot of people with 6 points so I figure I might have shot of top 8 and a prize.
Round 5, Viktor with Goblins
A shot at revenge.
Game 1 we start with a Legacy play out of the book: mountain, Lackey go meets plains, Swords to Plowshares. He gets some other little dudes down but I’m able to Deed the board. I find some discard to take care of his Matron tutors (Ringleader and SGC). Eventually I build a bigger army than his; I had 2 Goyf, a Finks and a Witness. When Recurring Nightmare joined the party, the game was mine.
Anti-Tribal boarding plan (taking out 2 Elspeth, 2 Deed and a Therapy).
Game 2 I land an early Plague and get a Goyf and Witness which brings back a StP. He had a slow start and was never really in this game.
I end up in 8th place and get pre-release Emrakul, foil Xantid Swarm and a booster for my efforts. All 3 teammates are in the top 8 (2 in the top 4) so it was a good tournament for us.

The deck was excellent apart from the 1 game against Goblins but that can happen to any deck. I really like Recurring Nightmare; it was the first time I tried it out and together with Witness it can provide some serious card advantage. Elspeth and Top should be auto-includes in every Rock-deck except a pure aggro one imho.
The only thing I’m considering to change to the deck, is to include the 4th Top over a Cabal Therapy (and obviously the sideboard should be tuned to the meta).

Wow, this turned into a lengthy post. If anybody has any comments/suggestions for the deck, feel free to post.
Thx

@ zalachan (and damion)

Although I like damion's deck that you played at the tournament in Ljubljana, it's not the direction I would like the Rock to go. I mean, like someone said before – this is not the Rock anymore. Of course Exploration-Crucible combined with Armageddon looks great, but that does not feel „Rockish.“

I'm actually shocked that you managed to beat stax in R1 (a friend of mine) and then lose to Merfolks (I hate 'em). :mad: On the other hand, I simply don't see how Leyline fits in this deck – it so …suboptimal. Reanimator and Dredge will echo it back to your hand, and KoR will be angry at you because you deprive her of her food. :wink:
Regarding Deed – I would most definitely include one more copy because it solves tons of problematic creatures and usually provides card advantage. Deed Rocks! :cool:

@ damion

Thorns are a special case. I like slowing the other decks down so I have a chance, but it's not the best chance. They normally just go for some stuff and solve the thorns. The best thing that could happen would be chaining the thorns (turn 2, 3, 4...). They do, however, give you game vs burn.

Finks give you game vs burn. :wink: How I enjoy playing finks and then flashback therapy against zoo/burn. :cool: (if they play their animals – they get cleaned of the board, if they hold their animals in their hand – they get their hands cleaned rapidly )

@ sdematt

4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Phyrexian Arena

BB cost doesn’t trouble you? How many cards do you draw on average with it? I mean - confidant presents a threat - arena does not.

@ zzz
How does Elspeth work in your version? Isn’t she like overkill? I mean – how is she better than KoR (in this deck)? Was that a meta choice? How many times did you manage to cast her?

The BB can be a problem sometimes, but usually not often. I prefer Arena since I run a bunch of 3-drops, and taking hits like that off Confidant give me a harder game vs. Zoo, and just makes me worse against aggro. Yes, it does cost 3, but it's only 1 life per turn instead of 2-3, in my experience.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by publius_aelius

@ zzz
How does Elspeth work in your version? Isn’t she like overkill? I mean – how is she better than KoR (in this deck)? Was that a meta choice? How many times did you manage to cast her?

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The reason that Elspeth is good in this deck is because she is much harder to be dealt with than your creatures. Apart from The Rock and Landstill builds, there are very few decks packing Vindicate meaning the only way a deck can get rid of Elspeth is by attacking into her. My deck has a lot of ways to deal with creatures (as most Rock builds have) so keeping her alive is much easier as keeping KotR, Goyf or any other critter in play.
Elspeth does many things; she can stall with making a blocker each turn meanwhile ramping up to her ultimate and allowing you to Top into the answer you're looking for; she can break board stalemates; she can speed up your clock; she can provide you with a creature right after you blow the board with Deed, ...

I don't think you should compare her with KotR as she serves a different function imo. Although I'm a big fan of Knight as well, I don't think there's room for him in the list I played. I often stabilize at under 10 life but then take control of the game and usually 1 big beater is enough then.

I've played a list with 4 Knight and 3 Elspeth a couple of months ago which I really enjoy as well. If anybody is interested, I'll post the list.

I think that's the great thing about the Rock, you can build it in so many different ways and tune it for each particular meta (except probably combo heavy...).

@sdematt
Seeing as you play 4 KotR, wouldn't 1 Stronghold be sufficient. I played 2 Wasteland and a Nantuko Monastery as tutor targets in my Knight build. The wasteland is not to disrupt your opponent (although it can win games against mana/colour screwed opponents) but more for annoying lands like Tabernacle, Maze, Factory,...
I'm not a fan of BSA in this deck. 5 mana for a creature that dies to all removal is simply not that amazing in Legacy imo. Isn't 2 Pulse and 4 Vindicate a bit too much?
As for the sideboard; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor board be good for such a large tournament. It allows you to diversify your sideboard some more. I played this board in my Knight-build last time:
3 Engineered Plague
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Extirpate
1 Choke
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Runed Halo
1 Chainer’s Edict
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
The tutor can also get your Deeds which is nice against decks you normally don't see a lot but might run into in Seattle like Enchantress and Affinity.
Just some thoughts, let me know what you think.

ZZZ - Welcome to the party. I like your combo's that you have in there with Nightmare. It's really nice to Sac a token or a finks to get back something else or make them discard. Personally, I would love to see an expansion on that idea with another card that lets you take advantage of those interactions (You're Shreikmaw is one way).

Aelious - I completely feel you on your statements. I did forget about finks. I usually do. He kinda sits in the board (I've been looking for an alternate because of this) but, Finks is amazing at what it does. to be honest though, with my list, you would rather play Thorns in multiples as you're hoping to land an Armageddon or Vindicate on their lands anyway. It's your only real way to win that match. 2 life doesn't quite get there.

to be honest though, I was surprised that Zalachan lost to Merfolk as well. That's why I wanted to know what he boarded. The Stax match isn't as hard as it looks. You usually don't care about what they do and can play their game better than they can. Just don't get locked. That sucks and is game for every deck though *Perfect lock, T1-3Sphere, T2-Stax, T3, Crucible.

Lastly, as you said (and so did I a while ago) my list isn't really Rock anymore (Only in color). It got listed as Rock but I definitely agree that it's not Rock. To be honest the entire gameplay style is different then how Rock plays (or most other decks in 1.5 right now). I stay in this thread because I started with a list from in and have had a strong affinity for this deck but, I'm not gonna talk about my list again in this thread. I'll open a new one later on (Deck was dubbed The Old Republic by a friend *Star Wars Reference*) after I finish writing a primer for it.

What would you replace Baneslayer with? I'm trying Finks or Shriekmaw at the moment, but the lifegain I get off her would be helpful against Zoo, even if it does die to removal. Any help here would be good.

I'm also trying Noble Hierarch instead of Birds at the moment. I've usually got enough black, so the extra edge in combat doesn't seem like a bad thing. Also mindtricks the opponent into thinking I'm playing Survival, or Bant colours in general (until I whip out a Bayou, but that could always be for EE on 4 :P)

-Matt

matt: The BB can be a problem sometimes, but usually not often. I prefer Arena since I run a bunch of 3-drops, and taking hits like that off Confidant give me a harder game vs. Zoo, and just makes me worse against aggro. Yes, it does cost 3, but it's only 1 life per turn instead of 2-3, in my experience.

I understand. It’s only – casting confidant has greater psychological effect on the opponent than arena. I’ve played chess, and one of chess greats – Emmanuel Lasker – once said that chess is a psychological game, and a player who makes greater impact on an opponent’s psyche will probably win. IMHO, the same can be said about MtG. But arena probably suits your deck better because of the reasons you’ve stated, although I wonder about it’s playability against Zoo. You’ll probably be forced to play creatures/removals on turns 3-4-5. Arena as a turn 6 drop is a bit too late vs Zoo, isn’t it?

ZZZ: The reason that Elspeth is good in this deck is because she is much harder to be dealt with than your creatures. Apart from The Rock and Landstill builds, there are very few decks packing Vindicate meaning the only way a deck can get rid of Elspeth is by attacking into her. My deck has a lot of ways to deal with creatures (as most Rock builds have) so keeping her alive is much easier as keeping KotR, Goyf or any other critter in play.
Elspeth does many things; she can stall with making a blocker each turn meanwhile ramping up to her ultimate and allowing you to Top into the answer you're looking for; she can break board stalemates; she can speed up your clock; she can provide you with a creature right after you blow the board with Deed, ...

I admit that I haven’t considered Elspeth as a viable choice for the Rock builds. Maybe because of here prohibitive 2WW cost (and the fact that I didn’t include any cards with cc >3 in my build). But I’ll include one copy and test it. On the other hand, she can be neutralized with Pithing Needle which is quite common in my meta – it also disrupts Deed, which is why I consider playing Crime/Punishment after SB.

ZZZ: I don't think you should compare her with KotR as she serves a different function imo. Although I'm a big fan of Knight as well, I don't think there's room for him in the list I played. I often stabilize at under 10 life but then take control of the game and usually 1 big beater is enough then. I've played a list with 4 Knight and 3 Elspeth a couple of months ago which I really enjoy as well. If anybody is interested, I'll post the list. I think that's the great thing about the Rock, you can build it in so many different ways and tune it for each particular meta (except probably combo heavy...).

You’re right – I prefer KoR because my Rock (or PT Junk for that matter) is more like a beatdown deck, and I simply adore land tutoring (Karakas, Bojuka, Horizon Canopy, Wasteland, etc)

ZZZ: As for the sideboard; wouldn't an Enlightened Tutor board be good for such a large tournament. It allows you to diversify your sideboard some more. I played this board in my Knight-build last time:

I don’t know about the white Tutor. As opposed to Demonic Tutor, I’ve never liked these card disadvantage tutors (this is not based on testing or anything objective – it’s just personal preference). :wink: On the other hand, have you tried Academy Rector as a Enchantment tutor (especially with cabal therapy)? I know – he is expensive to cast – but the enchantment he tutors comes into play for free, which compensates his casting cost. That way you could play only one copy of recurring nightmare.

damion: I completely feel you on your statements. I did forget about finks. I usually do. He kinda sits in the board (I've been looking for an alternate because of this) but, Finks is amazing at what it does. to be honest though, with my list, you would rather play Thorns in multiples as you're hoping to land an Armageddon or Vindicate on their lands anyway. It's your only real way to win that match. 2 life doesn't quite get there.

Ah, right. Thorn has some synergy with Armageddon and is a better choice in a meta full of control/combo. On the other hand, my meta is full of Zoo. :mad:

damion: to be honest though, I was surprised that Zalachan lost to Merfolk as well. That's why I wanted to know what he boarded. The Stax match isn't as hard as it looks. You usually don't care about what they do and can play their game better than they can. Just don't get locked. That sucks and is game for every deck though *Perfect lock, T1-3Sphere, T2-Stax, T3, Crucible.

I don’t know. Chalice on 1 and 2 in first two turns is sick. I’d rather play against Reanimator than vs Stax anytime.

matt: What would you replace Baneslayer with? I'm trying Finks or Shriekmaw at the moment, but the lifegain I get off her would be helpful against Zoo, even if it does die to removal. Any help here would be good.

IMHO finks are so much better than BSA because they 2 (or 4) life prior to the next turn’s attack phase, and can be cast for 1WG or 1WW or 1GG, present card advantage, and do not present such a mana disadvantage in case it gets removed (PtE on Finks is one of his mana for 3 of mine, while BSA is one of his mana for 5 of mine).

matt: I'm also trying Noble Hierarch instead of Birds at the moment. I've usually got enough black, so the extra edge in combat doesn't seem like a bad thing. Also mindtricks the opponent into thinking I'm playing Survival, or Bant colours in general (until I whip out a Bayou, but that could always be for EE on 4 :P)

Well said. I prefer Hierarch also. She is great. I play it in my build and have never regretted. On the other hand, I don’t play so many black cards:

MD:
3x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Diabolic Edict

SB:
4x Extirpate
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Hide/Seek
1x Crime/Punishment

@Damionblackgear: Thx, I don't want to rely to heavily on Recurring Nightmare. It's synergy with Finks and Witness is great but those cards are good on their own. I play the lone Shriekmaw because it's also decent on its own and with Nightmare and Stronghold, I have 2 ways to recur it. It's also my only MD out to Iona on White.
The deck plays as a traditional Rock deck but has a lot of card advantage built into it with Bob, Nightmare, Witness and Deed. I think that if you want to focus more on Nightmare 'combos', you can better try a Survival Rock build.

@sdematt: I'd replace Baneslayer with Elspeth but I just noticed that your build requires BB, GG and WW; I think that's asking to much of your manabase (even with BoP).
If it was me, I wouldn't run the cards requiring double black. Hymn is a fantastic card that can steal games but I think it's place is in a more aggro build running things like Dark Ritual and Tombstalker. A deck that can spends the first turns playing disruption and then throw down a big dude that goes all they way loves Hymn but if that is not your gameplan than targeted discard is better and Hymn is not needed. I also like Phyrexian Arena, I think it is underplayed in Legacy. However I would replace it with Top in your build; you're already quite heavy on 3-drops and Arena requires double black. Top will not provide card advantage like Arena does but it will digg 1 deeper which is relevant as you'll be looking for an answer quite often. In your build you can focus on card quality and Top can come down turn 1 and starts looking for whatever you need turn 2.
If Zoo is troublesome, try Finks; he's a house in that match-up (and in all aggro match-ups actually). You can also play 1 or 2 PtE in the board (or even main if you expect a lot of aggro), against Zoo you want to try to keep Nacatls and Goyfs off the table in the early game so that you can stabilize with your own big dudes at a decent life total.

@Publius_aelius: Yes, please try Elspeth, I'll promise you'll love her :wink:. The WW in the casting cost requires you to make choices. Like I said above, I don't think you can run BB, GG and WW and expect to be able to consistently cast all of those (especially not against decks that attack your manabase). Imo Elspeth is worth running double white.
Elspeth can be Needled but we have a lot of answers for that (Vindicate, Pridemage, Grip) and it means that they haven't put Needle on Top so you should be able to find an answer.
E-tutor is card disadvantage but it allows you to run a broader sideboard. If you know what meta to expect, you're probably better off just running some 3- or 4-offs in your board to improve your bad matchups in that particular meta. If you're going into a large tournament and can face anything, a tutor board can be very useful. Another benefit is that you can diversify your hate; for example if you have a Canonist on the board against ANT, then you can tutor for a Runed Halo so that they can't take out 2 hate pieces with a Hurkyl's Recall or Rebuild.

In the testing I've done in the past few hours, I'm definitely going to go for Hierarch and Finks. I never realized Finks could be such a beast, mind you, he begs for PtE. This is fine because then my KotR doesn't get a Path :D

You're right about the Arena being a tad slow on that front, I totally agree. The way I see it, and as you do, Top is card manipulation, and not advantage. If I could run both Top and Arena, I totally would. In this deck, however, I'd rather run out a Thoughtseize or Hierarch T1 instead of Top (that's just me).

Top is also much better when playing Confidant; it's basically like cheating. I definitely will consider the switch, as it is a bit more threatening than an enchantment sitting on the board. I'll also consider Top.

At this point, I'm not sure about the board for going to SCG. I'm thinking:

3 Choke - Blue hate in general
4 Leyline - Dredge, Lands, Reanimator. I'm running a Bog main, and me likey :P
2 Extirpate - Dredge, Lands, Reanimator, etc.


And I'm not sure what else. How have you guys found Hide/Seek? Seems good to pick out say, Tendrils out of their deck, but what else do you guys pick?

I'm assuming for a large tournament, E Plague is never a bad thing?

I was also looking at some Fallen Empires tech: "Thelon's Curse". Maybe not in the build, but with Choke, seems like it would wreck 'Folk pretty well.

-Matt

I live in Belgium so I'm not sure what the meta will look like at the SCG events but from what I read here Reanimator, Lands and New Horizons seem to be quite popular together with the traditional decks to beat.

If you can resolve 2 E-plagues against a Tribal deck, it's usually a win so if you have the room in your board, I would definitely play 3 (if possible 4) Plagues.

I think Extirpate is currently the best grave hate. It's better than Crypt/Relic against Reanimator, extirpating an early Loam against Lands is excellent and it's usefull against combo (Pating a card after they've used Mystical Tutor). It's not so good vs Dredge but I think that deck is played less nowadays.

I don't think Hide/Seek is good against combo; many people play either the Saito ANT list which runs 2 Tendrils (and 2 Ad Nauseam) or they run NLS which has Burning Wish. If you want to pack combo hate, I'd go with a combination of Thorn and Canonist (together with Extirpate and Choke).

Thelon's Curse seems too narrow. It'll wreck Merfolk if you have a Choke as well but even if you play 3 of both, how often will that happen and you don't want to spend that many slots on just the 1 matchup.

You should also consider Diabolic Edict with all the drop-a-fatty.dec these days (NO & Survival Bant, Reanimator, Emrakul). I always like 1 or 2 Path to Exile in the board to complement the Swords against Zoo but also against Merfolk (and Goblins to a lesser extent); you need to be able to answer their Lords otherwise they can still fight through a single Plague quite easily.

I've also ran a Ghostly Prison in my E-tutor board; it's good against aggro (especially Merfolk together with Choke) and Dredge.

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Ah, right. Thorn has some synergy with Armageddon and is a better choice in a meta full of control/combo. On the other hand, my meta is full of Zoo. :mad:

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Then I would suggest other cards in your 15 that helps with Aggro decks. Good examples would be Finks, Hierarch (Old but still good if that's what you're running into). Wall of Revernce or Perimeter Captain are also a good ones (If you can stomach having another T2 card) It's usually able to stop their team and still able to gain some life (Go Goyf and Knight!). Also, If you're playing the Doran version you can kill a critter in combat. Your entire 15 shouldn't be aggro bound though.

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I don’t know. Chalice on 1 and 2 in first two turns is sick. I’d rather play against Reanimator than vs Stax anytime.

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Against a deck with vindicate and Deed I wouldn't call that a sick play. You basically kill of one of those (or all) and go to town. Besides, Most control versions of and BGW decks are +2 drops anyway. Most Stax players will remove them as they can be solved to easily by decks with both of these *Deed is a serious threat in their eyes.

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Thx, I don't want to rely to heavily on Recurring Nightmare. It's synergy with Finks and Witness is great but those cards are good on their own. I play the lone Shriekmaw because it's also decent on its own and with Nightmare and Stronghold, I have 2 ways to recur it. It's also my only MD out to Iona on White.
The deck plays as a traditional Rock deck but has a lot of card advantage built into it with Bob, Nightmare, Witness and Deed. I think that if you want to focus more on Nightmare 'combos', you can better try a Survival Rock build.

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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you should go overboard on the deck and make it so that if you don't draw the engine you're only an OK deck *Cough*Survival*Cough*. I was attempting to say a little more reliance on the things that are good without the engine wouldn't be that bad. Basically, "Make an engine into an engine without sacrificing your deck." Besides, a second out to Iona isn't a bad thing ;-)

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Originally Posted by damionblackgear

deck *Cough*Survival*Cough*.

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LOL, I'm actually trying out the GW Survival build atm :-).

What would you suggest to add to further abuse Nightmare? Witness and Finks seem like the best to me. Something like Fleshbag Marauder would be nice but if I want to have a decent chance of drawing it, I would at least need to run 2 and I really don't want to run more cmc 3 cards and without Nightmare it's quite a situational card.

i'm right now tinkering with a non-survival-rock-build with nightmares

i am using kitchen finks, witness, fleshbag marauder,and Knight of the Reliquary

i do not remember exactly who brought up espeth + nightmare, funny thing i have to say, i am using the Knight right now to fetch Oran Rief, the Vastewood, to extremely abuse nightmare with finks, + oran rief helps with tarmogoyf stalls

i right now am not using any confidants, sometimes, but rarely i am missing them, but i am satisfied with witness+nightmare+deed for cardadvantage, and knight and divining tops for library manipulation, and my horizon canopys as cantrips

i for my part would definitely opt for knight over espeth, even though the planeswalker is definitely harder to get rid of, but the land toolbox is just extremely convenient. kitchen finks are a house with the fetchable oran rief, and nightmare is awesome together with fleshbag marauders specially in lategame

in my build, basicallyall i did was to replace my confidants with fleshbag marauders, since nightmare was allready in my build, may sound strange, but i have to admit i'm still in testing phase, and sometimes i really miss confidant, but right now the deck fits a little better my playstyle

so to answer your question in short version

kitchen finks
witness
shriekmaw (spot removal which is very nice, and with nightmare partly at instant speed :P)
fleshbag marauder(random removal which can get rid of iona, inkwell, progenitus, and any non-targetable big beater, plus helps against dredge)

are the best creatures suited for abusing nightmare

eventually also

wall of blossoms
wall of omens

Wall of Omens should give you some nice card advantage, as well as some Nightmare fodder. Plus, you get a Wall for Lackey, Goyf, etc. Steve, if you want to post your newest list, I'd love to take a look.

-Matt

Hey Guys,

Its been a while since I posted, got busy with school and shit but now summer is upon us and magic can once again consume my life.

Firstly - ZZZ - I like the direction you are taking, it is very much along the lines of what I tuned my list to a couple months back. For all those who are wondering, Elspeth is indeed a bomb - I only ever lost once when I resolved one. It manages to be both defensive and offensive as the situation warrants it, jumping a goyf or spamming blockers, and has awesome synergy with Deed. I have played against a few people who overextended into my deed on the table because they thought I would loose her too ;)

What I'd like to say, and what hasn't been brought up lately, is that in my opinion and Rock deck should be playing Natural Order + Progenitus. Now, I know there is a separate thread for it, but in my opinion the simple addition of 4 cards doesnt significantly change the deck, but just gives us a real I WIN button. PLEASE test it, you will not be disappointed.

Anyway, I went over the last few pages to see what I've been missing and jotted down my thoughts on what's been going on. I apologize in advance for the length, but there is alot to say about magic :)

@ Smallpox – seems like a cool idea but the deck would have to be seriously warped to accommodate it… it’s the kind of card where synergy is key. I know it has been beaten to death, but Bloodghast, maybe? Still, has merit vs reanimation/NO/Show and Tell strategies, expecially vs reanimator since it can eat their lands (which they don’t have many of)

@ Reanimator – I have also seen reanimator players naming black, but I guess it’s a good idea since all the ‘tech; outs are black, including Shriekmaw (which is good vs Iona, Emrakul (not reanimator I know), Fleshbag Marauder (Inkwell, Progenitus), Extripate, etc. Most impotantly, though, is that iIona on Black shuts off BOTH Maelstrom Pulse and Vindicate.
As far as Knight goes, its not gonna be relevant vs reanimator in my opinion because once they see you are not blue they will power out the combo fast and Knight comes down too late to race. Without birds, it’s a Turn 4 attack… In terms of Karakas shenanigans, a saavy reanimator player SHOULD bring out inkwell if they see a knight/suspect you are playing karakas… I mean, everyone is playing it these days… I dunno. Its not the worst card but it should by no means be relied upon to swing the match in your favour.
And as far as the cutting white goes, if the reanimator player is good, then they will name black anyway (as evidenced by various persons playtesting experience) so keeping in swords works (its also just the best removal spell in the format, and what you gain from it vs aggro far outweighs having it potentially shutoff by Iona – don’t compromise the deck for a margnial advantage in a matchup that isnt ubiquitous)

@ non-reanimator Combo – while I tend to lump reanimator in with combo, it can be more easily disrupted w/ black therefore its probably a bit better than Storm/Belcher combo. As far as they go, I really don’t think that without a great hand-disruption/goyf hand then this we are HIGHLY unfavoured. NO can steal games if they stumble, so its gives us a chance but still if there is a lot of combo then the Rock is not the right deck to play.
Still, I don’t know what the right type of hate out of the board should be... Teeg or Cannonist seems the best since they can add to a clock. Combined with Mindbreak Trap, which we, as Rock players, really need to consider, there is a sliver of hope…

@ Exploration – this is really interesting. It seems like it has the potential to make up for the High CC control cards with faster mana development to match the efficient tempo decks throughout the format. Coupled with the synergy w/ Cruicible and Geddon, and you have a serious control killer. I’d like to test it but ATM I am developing some other stuff…
What about Enlightnened Tutor as a 1 of in these builds? Substitues as an Exploration T1 and otherwise gets you to you crucible later. Too bad the card disadvantage is exactly what we DON’T need…

@ Goblins – TOUGH matchup in my opinion… I have never won a full match in a tournament. AS far as I see, their efficient creatures and good curve demads immediate response with approximately equivalent resouces from us, where our answers are either on par or cost more mana wise. So, we are losing tempo to stay in the game, at which point Ringleader shows up (he has a nasty habit of coming out even through discard) and proceeds to refill their hand and crush our (my) soul. Even though E Plague is good, its not good enough vs Merfolk to be useful IMO and just takes up sideboard slots that we need for matches that we don’t already have a decent (read: at least 50:50) matchup against. Furthermore, I find that its really only good if we get multiples and get 2 into play before about turn 5, which is a tall order. This also means that we need to run at least 3 in the board to have a shot at seeing them early which therefore takes up valuable sideboarding space. Maybe I’m super unlucky, but this is NOT something I want to get paired against (yet I always seem to…). Otherwise, I have found that for slower builds (and possibly those running Exploration), Elspeth is great as it churns out blocker like no tomorrow… its just a stalling mechanism but it DOES give you time to find Deed/Goyfs. In any case, Not Fun.

@ sideboarding – I mentioned some things in other places but the main point I want to get across is that space is REALLY at a premium for Rock decks; we need 4-5 graveyard Hosers and if we don’t want to punt Combo totally we need something like 3-5 solutions… with grips and paths (to shore up merfolk/zoo) there isnt much left… As for Needle, it seems to me the consensus is Decent but I don’t think I want to put something in the ‘Board unless its REALLY going to make a difference. Also, I'm not convinced Choke is that good either; at least, in my meta there aren't a ton of slow blue control decks anymore and I find choke to be pretty useless vs Merfolk, so its deadweight in my opinion.

@ Recurring Nightmare – It’s a great card, and makes Zoo cry when combined w/ Finks, but is marginal vs CBTop and non-creature based strategies. Again, a geat addition to a control based Rock if we’re expecting lots of Aggro but then again we beat aggro anyway… does that make it Win-more? I’m not sure. In any case, it is a powerhouse in the right context.

@ Sensei’s Divining Top – Absolutely Essential, with or without Confidant. The rock has barely any sources of card advantage so we need to maximize our draws every turn to keep gas coming. I’m sure you are all aware of the amazingness when paired with Bob, so I wont really get into it. Bottom line: Card advantage/selection is paramount to a deck designed to fight so many different strategies at once. Also, don’t forget that Top allows you to float answers in case of hand distruption (something I’ve found useful against reanimator – floating extripate, grab it after being thoughtseized
*note: that being said, my friend has found success using Mirri’s Guile in his Aggro Rock. It filters cards without tying up mana, which can be a real issue with the deck.

@ Dark Confidant – with or without Top, this guy is the nuts, as the raw CA he provides is such a boost that it is no wonder he is constantly countered/removed by saavy players. While he may not have a home in a slower list packing high CC cards, in any list that tops out the curve at 3, the life loss is well worth the advantage gained. My advice to those worrying about the damage – run Finks. He pulls you out of the thoughtseize/bob rut quite well. Additionally, Inquisition of Kozilek over Seize may alleviate the potential problem. While this has been said a thousand times, even if he dies to spot removal that’s one less for you beaters that are actually going to end the game, and if he doesn’t, then he will liekly win you the game due to crazy CA.
Note – to all those worried about the life-loss, I am playing him in a NO build and have yet to have a problem considering the presence of 3x 4cc and 1x 10cc cards.

So those are my thoughts, sorry again if its a little much to digest. To make things easier I'm going to post my current lists in the next post, so please excuse the double post too :P

MrShine