Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
Yes, this is tricky.
But that is actually a double edged sword, just like when we run Goblin King against Zoo. A Bolt (or Gempalm, in our case), may turn the combat step all around after an attack with their "unblockable" creatures.
Another thing is that, if they Waste our duals, they lose the landwalk ability. So maybe they'll sub-use their Wastes/Lord.
We could also waste our own dual. I'm not saying we would, just we could.
Is anyone already play testing against the new merfolk deck after new phyrexia becomes legal? Basically what I see is that they run the non standstill list + 4 Mental Misstep. I think we should focus play testing our original list with the old and new lists of our good match-ups like merfolk. If we can't beat their new lists with our original list then we should seriously think of some innovation here. I mean this deck's core are not spoon fed to us when it originated, they were conceptualized and play tested by someone. Let's not wait before we end up in the established decks before we act.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Wew, I'm starting to get lucky in Magic again (after a long while). Played a small tourney in my city (32 players) and went 5-0. Got 1 Tropical Island, 1 Foil MM Brainstorm, 20 bucks and a Judgement booster (why the hell anyone would keep a Judgement booster?). Opened the booster and just got Wonder and Worldgorger Dragon, yay!
I was playing with this list:
Lands [22]
8 Mountain
4 Auntie's Hovel
4 Badlands
4 Wasteland
2 Chrome Mox
Core [26]
...
Removal [4]
1 Stingscourger
1 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Warren Weirding
Others [8]
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
Sideboard [15]
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
2 Null Rod
2 Shattering Spree (wanted some Pulverize, but couldn't find any)
Matches:
1- Merfolk (2-0) easy mode
2- ANT (2-0) Game 1, t1 Lackey + Wastelands raped him, and Game 2 his Ad Nauseam fizzled (happy me :D).
3- Dredge (2-1) Game 1 he goes nuts, Game 2 and 3, LotV gets me there (he has no answer for it both games).
4- SnT/NO (2-1) -> read below
5- Merfolk (2-1) Game 1 was easy. Game 2 he gets an active Jitte. Game 3 double Warren Weirding and double Piledriver gets me there.
I knew I was facing a SnT deck, I saw his Emrakuls, but I wouldn't imagine Natural Order as sb package.
Game 1: He wins the roll and go for Lotus Petal -> Ancient Tomb -> SnT -> Emrakul turn 1, meh...
Game 2 was easy with Lackey -> SGC + Piledriver (T3 kill).
Game 3, I started with this: Wasteland, Auntie's Hovel, Warchief, Chieftain, Piledriver, Matron, Warren Weirding.
T1:
He played Fetch -> Trop -> Ponder, pass.
I topdeck a SGC, played Wasteland on Trop, pass.
T2:
He played another Fetch -> Trop, and GSZ for 0 fetching a Drayd Arbor, pass.
I topdeck a Chieftain, played auntie's Hovel, pass.
T3
He plays another drayd, plays GSZ for 1 and fetches a Noble Hierarch, pass.
I topdeck a Mountain, played Piledriver, pass.
T4
He ponders, and attacks for 2 with exalted Arbor, pass.
I topdeck another Auntie's Hovel, play Chieftain, which faces a FoW, attack for 1, pass.
T5
He plays NO (sac 1 arbor), grabbing Progenitus, pass.
I topdeck a Matron, play Warchief, pass.
T6
He attacks with exalted Prog, getting me to 7 life, pass (he has 1 arbor, 1 tapped prog, 1 noble, and 1 untapped trop).
I topdeck a mountain, play it. 2 Mountains, 2 Hovels and my hand looks like this: Matron, Matron, WW, Chieftain, SGC.
After a lot of time thinking: He's at 17. I played Matron (hovel + mountain tapped) fetching Piledriver. Play the Piledriver (mountain tapped), attack with double Piledriver + Matron + Warchief. He blocks the Piledrivers with arbor and Noble (yay!). Post-Combat Mainphase I play WW, hoping he doesn't have a FoW/Daze and it resolves. Game...
Did I play it correctly? I mean, I just got lucky he blocked my Piledrivers and didn't have a counterspell ready.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bakofried
Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?
First, I have to say I think you are just trolling. I think you were before, but it's even more obvious now.
Secondly, I even agree with you, I don't think there's anything to the blue splash - but I disagree with you in that I think there should still be some testing and some concrete data.
Third - Stop comparing merfolk to goblins, they are not the same and don't play the same way. There is no reason for you to compare merfolk to goblins because they run different cards/different SB.
Finally, No one (and in fact this has been repeated time and time again) is saying the U splash will work, only that some of the cards that U offers may HELP to fight problems in the combo MU. That is a far cry from saying that the U splash will be any better than merfolk (or any other deck for that matter) for beating combo without data.
This is why I say you are just trolling now, you are asking for data when no one has any and you are perfectly aware of this since you have been bitching about the U splash in just the theory craft stages. Stop trolling and just wait for the data instead of trying to fish for posts and arguments that will prove you right.
It's not that we don't think you are right, we just want to say without a doubt that your way of thinking is right.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
God I want to. Yes I will.
Needs more
http://sales.starcitygames.com/cards...athom_seer.jpg
With that said, isn't thoughtseize just stronger then mm for this deck as well as others? You take a better card, you punish mulligans harder, and you get to see their hand? How could this be worse?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Well, I can't change your opinion on that matter. If you think I'm a troll, please address it in a PM, so we don't clutter up the board with shitty ad hominem arguments.
So moving on.
How is attempting to dismantle the theory behind the blue splash trolling? AFAIK, the blue splash was suggested because we now have a counterspell which may not require the high blue count FoW does (which greatly weakens the strength of the Ringleader engine). We would (theoretically) want a counterspell to shore up the combo MU while not losing value in other match-ups. Well, first we have to ask, how much does this card realistically hurt combo? I would argue that it's value against combo that isn't Dredge or Reanimator is minimal. Misstep (or Daze, Pierce, whatever counterspell you're trying to incorporate) would in all likelihood eat it to a Duress, Silence, Chant, or Seize in the Storm MU. So (here's the surprise factor) you may catch an essential ritual with it one game, but after that, they'll play around it, which, given the limited number of good counterspells we can run, is fairly easy to do. I don't think it even slows them down to the point that we have a chance to get in for lethal; a Silence effect turn 2 wrecks that plan, and is only salvaged by having multiple Missteps in hand. High Tide is pretty pricey, and due to that scarcity it's rare to see. On top of that, it's not the easiest deck to play. But, even you ignore it's scarcity, they run countermagic (and are certainly capable of running Misstep) of their own. The benefit is this is already a fairly slow combo deck. You may be able to goldfish them, and in all honesty, Misstep could give you a game or two here. But you can't forget they're not weak to Daze, and they could simply counter the Misstep. Reanimator? Yes, this card is excellent against them. Most of their business and disruption is 1cc - but we have a decent MU here. Racing Sphinx with Piledriver is doable, and Iona isn't too scary if you have access to Sting with a Vial or are using the black splash. You can stop Dredge's discard outlets and draw spells, but they could just go for the draw, discard, dredge plan and smoke you that way. Traditional GY hate is most likely superior out of the board, all the same. Elf-combo? Yeah, it'll do well, but Chalice+Pyro/Perish is far superior. Plus, the deck is built so that its 1-drops can die, it's not like it will fold when you hit a Glimpse/H. Druid/Sentinel with it. They just play more dudes and move on.
If I've forgotten a major combo deck, let me know.
Next we need to consider its applications outside of combo. Really, what cards actually hurt Goblins that are stopped by Mental Misstep? Well, removal can be a pain sometimes. Stopping Bolt, Swords, Blood, Chain, etc. seems pretty sweet - but it hurts our CA engine, which helps us recover from sweepers, which are much more difficult to fight. Now, it wouldn't sting too much if we just used the non-goblin flex slots - of which we realistically have about 4. I set that number simply because it's the maximum number of bolts I saw when Zoo was huge. And even then, my Ringleaders were less than ideal. Is this anecdotal evidence? Yes. If someone could mathematically calculate the number of non-goblins (excepting mana+Aether Vial) we could run and still have good Ringleaders, it would be appreciated, but I have no such skills. Until then, I'm running with this. Past removal, what do we have to worry about? Well, removal on a stick. Grim Lavamancer. This card is undoubtedly worthy of a counter. But we can't forget - he is a creature. A very squishy creature. If we can get a Mogg token to stick, we can deal with Lavamancer. And, in my mind, a goblin answer trumps a non-goblin answer. There is Sensei's Divining Top, certainly a format staple - but aren't we strong against CounterTop variants, whatever the flavor (aside from certain obnoxious variants packing Swords+Lavamancer+Firespout)? I don't really see the need for it here. And I'm getting a wee bit tired. So point out any others to me, please.
Ultimately, I'm don't care if you want to test the blue splash or not. That is your prerogative. But would you deny me the right to discuss the validity of it? I realize there isn't hard data here, and that's not what I'm asking for. I'm asking for good, solid arguments and counterarguments for and against this card. If you can't provide that until after testing - okay! Say so. But don't bitch at me for wanting to talk about it.
PS: Foxblade, sent you a PM.
PPS: mossivo, please don't say you're likening me to pi4. That would take the joy out of the weekend.
PPPS: I compare Merfolk to Goblins simply because we would be adopting a poorer version of their disruption package. If it would make you feel better, I can start using hate-bear-less Bant as an example instead of Merfolk.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Vandalize
After a lot of time thinking: He's at 17. I played Matron (hovel + mountain tapped) fetching Piledriver. Play the Piledriver (mountain tapped), attack with double Piledriver + Matron + Warchief. He blocks the Piledrivers with arbor and Noble (yay!). Post-Combat Mainphase I play WW, hoping he doesn't have a FoW/Daze and it resolves. Game...
Did I play it correctly? I mean, I just got lucky he blocked my Piledrivers and didn't have a counterspell ready.
Well done! This was a very good play. Sure it was lucky that he actally blocked both of them but thats just mindgameing: double Piledriver attacking triggers a strong blocking-reflex in your opponents.
Another Alternative would have been to fetch the second WW with Matron. But this would have told your opponent in a slight whisper:
LOOK AT THIS CARD, BUDDY! I GOT TO GET RID OF YOUR SMALL DUDES TO BE ABLE TO WIN THIS!!!!!!!!
Gratz on the results!
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Sorry, argument has me forgetting my manners. Congrats on the result, and congrats on the mindgaming. I'd have bungled it all to hell, I'm sure. I'll actually be testing that list this weekend, minus 2 Chrome Mox (no access to them). Any tips on playstyle for this version? (Gobolord, I'd like some input here from you as well. I don't like walking in cold with a deck [though I've done some goldfishing]).
Also, Auntie's Hovels or red fetches? I'm on the fence.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bakofried
Can someone please tell me how the blue splash will effectively fight combo if Merfolk still has a mediocre combo MU, and yet packs more disruptive countermagic along with FoW?
To effectively fight combo you need 2 things:
1: A fast clock. Even with the blue splash, Goblins have a faster clock than Merfolk. There's still the possibility of a turn 3 kill with turn 1 Goblin Lackey into turn 2 Siege-Gang Commander + cast Goblin Piledriver. If you apply enough pressure, your Combo opponent doesn't have time to form his hand with enough protection so he can go guarantee his combo kill. Also, if he's forced to go off via Ad Nauseam with low life (10 or less), you have a high chance to win (especially if your opponent is awful enough to try those Grim Tutor builds).
2: Disruption, preferably maindeck. Merfolk has better disruption than Goblins. The disruption Goblins has is often (even post-sideboard) not good enough to win from good combo players, that's why the blue splash heavily increases the combo match-up for Goblins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bakofried
Also, Auntie's Hovels or red fetches? I'm on the fence.
I see no reason to pay life if I don't have to. I'm using Auntie's Hovel. I've never had problems showing a Goblin I wouldn't cast the same turn anyway, or just put it into play tapped if you can't cast a Goblin that turn. The card virtually has no drawback.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
See my earlier points on the value of this limited disruption suite.
Also, have you guys have wished for more removal MD? I feel like 4 is a tad light, really.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Hmm, i never tested this configuration (4 WI, 4 Chieftain) without Chrome Moxes, but I can't believe that this is bad at all. One thing is for sure: without Chrome Mox you lose speed. I tested the alternatives that were suggested a few weeks ago (Gemstone Caverns and [cards]Simian Spirit Guide[/card]) but did not like either one of them. Thus, if you don't have Chrome Mox then just fill the slots with colored lands. Because the RR-manacosts are very frequent there is really no room for any :1:-land (other than Wasteland - and I sometimes feel like cutting even those =/).
About fetchland vs. Auntie's Hovel: it depends. Wasteland is frequently played in legacy (although this might be different in your meta). Therefore I'd suggest to run as less targets as possible because you need to have RR or even RRR almost every turn to reliably cast WI and Chieftain. My configuration was 3 Badlands + 7 Fetches (=10 possible B sources). I think Vandalizes configuration is just more risky while he has "only" 8 B sources on 5 B cards in total. Another point for Fetchlands is the fact that you can hide your splash-color in game 1 (which makes it harder for your opponent to prepare for your SB cards). I don't know if this advantage is too important, but it IS an advantage.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I'm actually looking the other way at the Wasteland-debacle:
The obvious risk is that you run 3 Badlands while if your opponent has Wasteland he's likely to run 4. You may run out of black mana. So the important question is: which match-ups where your opponent has Wasteland is black mana essential?
The most important black card in your 75 is Perish, so which decks with green creatures run Wastelands?
There are known Zoo builds where Wastelands were run (top 8 GP:Madrid), but this number of Zoo decks is on the decline.
There are Bant Tempo decks with Natural Order=>Progenitus supported by Knight of the Reliquary.
There's Dark Horizons, also with Knight of the Reliquary to make sure you don't have black mana.
There's New Horizons, again, Knight of the Reliquary to fetch Wasteland.
There's GW Vial Aggro: Knight of the Reliquary.
Basically there are quite some decks out there with Knight of the Reliquary. They usually run enough removal (Swords to Plowshares/Path to Exile) to stay alive for quite a while, and after that their creatures are bigger than yours (Tarmogoyf, Kitchen Finks, Rhox War Monk). You really need lategame Perish against these decks, as it's an I-win button. I think a build with 4 Badlands and 4 Auntie's Hovel is more likely to be able to produce :2::b: lategame than a build with 3 Badlands and 7 fetchlands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
With that said, isn't thoughtseize just stronger then mm for this deck as well as others? You take a better card, you punish mulligans harder, and you get to see their hand? How could this be worse?
It costs mana. You don't want to cast a turn 1 Thoughtseize over a turn 1 Vial or Lackey. With Mental Misstep, you don't have to chose, you can just do both.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
I' ve posted a deck involving the MM + Standstill + FoW + Goblins idea
http:///www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...Still&p=543264
I didn't post it here just because (as I explain in the thread) I think is not a propper Goblins deck, so it maybe off-topic, but is a deck using Goblins instead.
Hope you can have a look and give opinions (just don't expect to see a deck full of Goblins beating hard, as we are used to).
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Ėīm back now, from a long MTG break and want to start playing again with Goblins. My list is a bit older, so I have a few questions on it.
20 Core
2 Siege, Gang Commander
2 Mogg War Marshall
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Chieftain
2 Warren Weirding
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Aether Vial
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Mountain
So how good do you think is Lightning Bolt, now Mental Misstep is printed? Before I loved Bolts for hitting with your Lackeys Daze prove. Also nice against Zoo and the mirror and steal me a few games against combo. Further do you think I should cut War Marshalls for Instigator and the Wort for a second Chieftain, if I add Instigators?
I really enjoy, that people want improving Goblins with the U-Splash, but I think if you do so, you will get a completly different deck. I think an aggro controll Goblin/"Fish" hybrid. For myself I want optimizing an classical R/B Vial Goblins build, which is up to date and don`t have a problem dealing with Mm. So I need a bit help from the experienced players.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sinkhole
So how good do you think is Lightning Bolt, now Mental Misstep is printed? Before I loved Bolts for hitting with your Lackeys Daze prove. Also nice against Zoo and the mirror and steal me a few games against combo. Further do you think I should cut War Marshalls for Instigator and the Wort for a second Chieftain, if I add Instigators?
There are several lists posted in this thread without the blue splash, which work really well. I suggest you try one of these and see from there.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
I think a build with 4
Badlands and 4
Auntie's Hovel is more likely to be able to produce :2::b: lategame than a build with 3
Badlands and 7 fetchlands.
I really don't think so. Being able to search for basics, and only searching for a Dual when you need it it awesome. Fetchlands give you choices, Auntie's Hovel take them away from you.
There are also decks that you don't need your splash, like mirror goblins or Merfolk, but they do run Wastelands. With Fetch, you can go for the basics, while with Hovel you open yourself to Wastes even if you don't have/want to.
Also, the "hiding the splash color" GoboLord pointed out is quite useful sometimes, leading to poor SB'ing G2 from the opponent.
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Skeggi
There are several lists posted in this thread without the blue splash, which work really well. I suggest you try one of these and see from there.
Ok, thank you. I`ll do that. But what do you think of Bolts, are they still viable or outdated now?
And would a single Wort make sense without Mogg War Marshall?
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sinkhole
Ok, thank you. I`ll do that. But what do you think of Bolts, are they still viable or outdated now?
And would a single Wort make sense without Mogg War Marshall?
Bolts depend on your meta.
If you play against a lot of agroo usually (zoo, goblins, merfolk), than it is useful. If not, then it is not so good.
Wort is good even without MWM, since his best targets are Gempalm, WW, Matron and Ringleader...
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ScatmanX
I really don't think so. Being able to search for basics, and only searching for a Dual when you need it it awesome. Fetchlands give you choices, Auntie's Hovel take them away from you.
But there are also situations when you have to fetch to Badlands, in these situations, chances are you'll run out of black mana at lategame, since you only have 3-4 sources. But granted, I do like the options fetchlands provide. I'm still sticking with Auntie's Hovel though :tongue:
Re: [DTB] Vial Goblins 2.0
Ok, I'll test it with 4 Badlands , 4 Hovels, 0 Fetches on the tourney tommorow and let you know if Wasteland was really prolematic.
