Printable View
Counterbalance seems like a pretty bad way to be playing many matchups at the moment, both against aggro (for speed) and midrange (for their curve).Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Dedicating 6-8 slots in the sideboard, though, strengthens combo matches with CB, improves long games in control mirrors siding in 2 Tops, and when SFM bad, gives you something better to do than 1-for-1'ing everything you can until you can get a planeswalker through.
When is SFM bad? Against combo? Even against combo, I still leave a few in to get Jitte for Swarm/Bob removal or Batterskull to get out of range of storm Tendrils/EtW.Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
I think you hit it on the head when you said "Dedicating 6-8 slots in the sideboard." If you are dedicating 6-8 slots, why not make it a combination of Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm? The really problematic card for us to beat in Storm is Orim's Chant/Silence. Spell Snare can't hit it and you can't 2:1 yourself all day to cast FOW and we only have ~2 main deck counterspells. Bringing in Pierces/Flusterstorms shuts down Chant effects. Even if they can pay the 2 off Pierce, it should take away enough mana that they can't go off. If you are really worried about storm, bring in Ethersworn Canonist, I don't think any storm player will see that coming.
If you did do the 3SDT/3Counterbalance in the sideboard like the deck you linked above, I think you would have to run some Ponders or Enlightened Tutors to make sure you could draw both pieces of the combo. I'm not a mathematician, but if you have 3 of each card, I'm guessing the odds of hitting both in your opener are <20%. As you know, you really have to get SDT/CB down quick to stop storm and it's going to help to have some extra E Tutors or cantrips to make sure you draw both pieces.
I consider the Reanimator match-up in our favor - we have removal and counters and gy hate post-board, and they only have 1 creature which is a real back-breaker (Inkwell). Iona on white is rough, but you can Jace bounce her. Even with Inkwell, you can race her with Batterskull.
A friend of mine told me it isn't worth splashing red without playing punishing fire atm so I can't resist and post al list, that is on my mind right now:
Spells (25):
4 Sword To Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
4 Spell Snare
3 Punishing Fire
2 Counterspell
Artifacts (2):
1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine
Planeswalkers (4):
3 Jace, TMS
1 Elspeth
Creatures (9):
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Lands (24):
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Tundra
3 Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Plains
1 Mountain
Discussion about Maindeck:
Splashing Red means playing blasts in the sideboard, which is strong against a couple of decks out there, additionally you can play spot removal in the deck, which will be lightning bolts or punishing fire (lightning bolts have a bit underperformed in the past for me) mainly to get rid of the small creatures in the maverick deck and delvers and lavamancers and guides and so on.
The snapcaster gets weaker as a result of including punishing fire in the maindeck, which led me to cutting it to 3.
The Factories also were cutted, because of the manabase getting more and more fragile with including the groves and red into it.
Main points:
1. Is it worth the "weak" manabase to include the punishing engine?
2. Have you got other ideas to improve our matchup against the creatures decks other than upping the path to exile count in the maindeck, which in many cases isn't that wonderful, you know (against maverick killing a hierarch with a path is hilarious)?
3. How strongly does the inclusion of the engine affect other matchups such as spiral tide, reanimator? There is now 1 less Counterspell in my list and 1 less Snapcaster, but the rest should still be a solid maindeck against and after boarding there are spell pierces and blasts to bring in (a split, but I'm not sure on the arrangement yet).
Isn't the Canonist one of the standard defenses against storm combo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I realize that play-style varies a lot on this, particularly against Aggro decks, where some lean harder into "aggro-control" and some fall back into a control role. I side out SFM primarily facing heavy removal - I keep her in against combo for (as you say) the life gain and the faster clock. (Against combo, I would pull removal, then Elspeth, then Jace for CB/Top.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Punishing Fire decks or Zoo have enough removal that sfm is a fairly bad tutor, and post-board (if not pre-) the equipment is probably no good as well. Packing lots of early removal and a midgame CB/Top addresses the Zoo/Punishing Mav curves very well (and lets you ignore Punishing Fire to win). With plenty of removal, never assembling the combo or losing CB to Pridemage isn't backbreaking, but the soft lock can shut them down or buy time quite well.
It's certainly not as consistent as playing a dedicated CB deck, but:Quote:
If you did do the 3SDT/3Counterbalance in the sideboard like the deck you linked above, I think you would have to run some Ponders or Enlightened Tutors to make sure you could draw both pieces of the combo. I'm not a mathematician, but if you have 3 of each card, I'm guessing the odds of hitting both in your opener are <20%. As you know, you really have to get SDT/CB down quick to stop storm and it's going to help to have some extra E Tutors or cantrips to make sure you draw both pieces.
1. Your counters/removal combat combo/creatures just fine early on,
2. Top is often amazing alone, particularly in control matchups and when playing combo, as you can use any unneeded counter mana to sculpt your draws and float a counterspell immune to discard. (Counterbalance can work okay, particularly if they're running LED/Petals, which makes most of your deck relevant as a blindflip if you don't have top or brainstorm.)
Again, I realize that sideboarding strategies vary, and I'm trying it out for (a) matches where spot removal is worthless, as an alternative to Pierce/Pyroblast in the board, and (b) matches where heavy removal leaves stoneforge too vulnerable and I'm going to fall into a heavier control role, to try to dominate the stack enough in the mid-late game that a smaller creature base and/or planeswalkers can finish things off.
Yes, but I'd run the full set of Punishing Fires and Groves. I think your manabase is weak because it cannot support your decks demands. I wouldn't go for the basic Plains or Mountain. If Wasteland is a problem, just don't fetch unless you have to. Wasteland is generally played in a deck with ~20 lands, we run 23-24. We can take a few hits. As long as your meta isn't full of recurring Wasteland or Moon effects, I think it's fine to run some more duals.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMaximus
Vedalken Shackles is an option. 1 or 2. You really need to ditch the non-island basics then. Also, I wouldn't run Shackles in a Punishing build, but then again, if you run Punishing Fires, you wouldn't need extra creature control. Shackles is generally very good against Maverick (but don't let any Pridemages or GSZ for 2 resolve :wink:).Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMaximus
Obviously negative, but these should be good match-ups anyway. On paper, Punishing Blade has no real bad match-ups. I think RUG Tempo is the most difficult one, and even that is fairly winnable.Quote:
Originally Posted by MadMaximus
Have you seen our team's Punishing Blade list? I'll admit, we have a new list but I'm not allowed to share, but I think the list in the report here (2nd list) is more solid than yours because it still runs the full set of Snapcasters, a full set of Punishing Fires and Groves and 0 basic Mountains. I would take that list to start with and tinker with it to fit your meta and your playstyle.
Although it's not usually run in the UW Blade deck. Deadguy Ale (WB), Death & Taxes and Maverick tend to run Canonist as Combo defense.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
True, CB/Top is very well curved to combat Zoo. I think they run about 24 1-drops and 14 2-drops, so once you get the soft-lock, you ought to be able to ride it to victory.Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
Keep me posted how this works out for you. It's an interesting idea and if it works out well, I am certainly open to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by anwei
Don't mistake 'well curved' for 'good'. Zoo and also Maverick have many ways to deal with CB top. Firstly, it's speed. Because both deck can put pressure on the board before CounterTop is established, CounterTop is too slow and janky. Also, Green Sun's Zenith gives them an out to escape the curve. GSZ with X=2 or 3 depending on how much spare mana he has can easily net a Qasali Pridemage if he needs one. I'm not a fan of Counterbalance versus fast aggro decks if you do not have a way to reset the board, like Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Also, when dealing with green based aggro: do not underestimate the power of Gilded Drake + Submerge. It leads to awesome plays like Submerge in response to fetching or Knight of the Reliquary activation; or just steal the Knight with Drake and then get back the Drake with Submerge and steal another Knight.
I prefer that method if you don't run Punishing Fire and are hesitant to run Vedalken Shackles because they side in artifact/enchantment hate against you anyway.
I prefer the 4 STP / 4 PTE / 4 Snapcaster method against Zoo while leaving in the equipment package. Sideboard is -4 FOW + 4 PTE and you can usually get there. Creature-wise, they can't compete with Batterskull and you have more card-drawing ability. Once you stop their initial onslaught, they go into top-deck mode and you can rebuild more quickly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Qasali Pridemage usually does the trick. Knight of the Reliquary is often big enough. They also pack alot of removal for SFM so actually landing that Batterskull is quite hard. Aven Mindcensor in response to various things can also be a real pain in the behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
Point of the matter is, that they do have answers against Batterskull. Force of Will is always a 2-for-1. I'm not saying this match-up is unwinnable, but it's certainly not as easy as the picture you are painting. I do agree that simply going -4 FoW +4 Path is a very strong approach.
What do you do against Thrun, the Last Troll?
I think we have different definitions of Zoo. When I say Zoo, I mean a deck like this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=42660Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
When you start throwing in GSZ, KotR and Thrun, it becomes Big Zoo.
Throw in some Punishing Fires and a few Grove of the Burnwillows and you have Punishing Zoo.
You go much further (like add some MoRs and SFMs, for example) and you have Punishing Mav.
The comment I made above (+4 PTE, -4 FOW) is only against the Zoo deck I referenced above. If they play Punishing Fire, I wil board in 2 Surgical Extractions, also trying to remove GSZ or KotR if I can get one in the yard. Against Thrun or Big Zoo, I bring in two WoG, usually removing 2 Spell Snares and 2 V. Cliques (although V. Clique can be good if they run Equipment- Clique in response to SFM activation). I also have 2 Disenchants for Choke/Equipment/Sylvan Library. If I bring those in, I take out the final 2 Spell Snares.
Regarding my Batterskull Protection Plan (BPP), I usually try to play him only when I have mana open to bounce (5 mana in play with SFM, cheat in at EOT and if they have removal, bounce in response). In terms of artifact removal, I fear KGrip the most, followed by Ancient Grudge (since you have to beat it twice) and finally Qasali Pridemage. Currently, I assume Ancient Grudge will be the artifact hate of choice of Zoo and RUG Tempo.
Regarding Aven Mindcensor, yes it's rough. The best advice I can give is to SFM/Fetch with STP mana open. For example, cast your SFM when you have 3 mana (2 W) and an STP in hand, so it plays out like: you cast SFM, they flash Mindcensor in response, you plow Mindcensor and get your search.
If I were piloting Storm, I would not expect Canonist in a deck that has Snapcaster Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by matunos
Again, CB/Top are primarily there for combo matchups, instead of more counters, where they come in for removal. In removal-heavy matches, stoneforge and equipment are the first cards I take out, for removal (the list I linked runs 4 swords, 2 path main and 2 path, 2 wrath, 2 shackles in the side). After that, it seems that CB/Top might do better than FoW/Counters/Clique in maintaining mid/late game control and ensuring that your SCMs/Cliques/Factories/Walkers (all vulnerable to removal/burn) can make it (it helps a lot to blank nearly all opposing removal/burn inc. Punishing Fire).Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
CB/Top is not Plan A - Plan A just got sided out - it deals with there stuff after your removal is used up and pushes through your Plan B.
This is a description of when "Plan A" is no good. If you have enough control of the game to protect Stoneforge long enough to vial in a protected Batterskull and dedicate 3 lands to its protection for the rest of the game, then yes, it does fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Water_Wizard
I want to raise a topic for discussion - how many colourless lands can we run before it becomes too unstable? The usual split for a UW build is 3 Mishra/2 Wasteland/1 Riptide, but can we push this up since we run 24 lands?
When I used to run this (pre-Snapcaster Mage), I ran 24 lands with 4 Mishra's Factory and 4 Wastelands, straight U/W (i.e. no red splash). It was essentially Owen Turwentald's deck, which I used in my playtest gauntlet. I was annoyed by how often I was unable to get colored sources, so I'd suggest 16 colored sources at a minimum, more if you're splashing.Quote:
Originally Posted by yutang
I was running 23 lands with a 4/4 split of Wasteland/Mishra's Factory back in the MM period based on Ochoa's deck too. Back then, I didn't really have any problems with the manabase because the only UU card in my deck was Jace (I ran 4 Visions, 3 Daze, 3 Snare, 4 MM and MM helped in slowing down decks).
However, now we run Counterspell as a UU, Elspeth in the main with WW and I'm running 2 Geists in the maindeck which may necessitate a higher coloured source count. At the moment, 3/2/1 of Mishra/Wasteland/Riptide seems okay, but I was wondering how far we could push it...
Snapcaster also costs 1UW or 1UU.
I'm running UW (no splash) with 4 Islands, 2 Plains, 3 Tundra, 4 Factories, 3 Wasteland, and 8 Fetch (4 Flooded Strand, 1 Misty, 1 Scalding Tarn, 1 Polluted Delta, 1 Arid Mesa). I just made this change yesterday (dropping 1 Tundra for a Plains and removing a Tower of Magistrate for the 3rd Wasteland).
I added the 2nd Plains because I have Elspeth and 2 WOG side. For the 7th colorless slot, I was considering Karakas, Riptide or Tower and just ended up going with the 3 Wasteland because of Grove of the Burnwillows.
I've been getting some horrible draws with this deck on MTGO. I swear it is cursed. I think I'm being punished because this deck is so good. Perhaps it's the mana-base (I seem to draw either all colorless sources or no/1 mana hands, which doesn't make sense because I'm running 24), but it's too early to tell. I've considered dropping a fetch to add a Tundra or another colorless source (perhaps a 4th Wasteland, but I know mana denial isn't a strong objective with this deck).
What's everyone think of the land:fetch ratio? 9:8, 9:7 or 10:7? I hate drawing dead fetches in the late game, which 9:8 promotes, but they are certainly nice early on for Brainstorms and thinning out the deck. Even late game, they can be nice with a Jace.
Is everyone running Crucible of Worlds? Main deck or sideboard? I cut mine completely, just because it seems like a wasted slot and if I have 6 basics, I hardly need to recur anything (like I said, I'm not going for the Crucible->Wasteland plan, but it is a ton of fun when it happens!).
This is my list at the moment:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Brainstorm
4 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Batterskull
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Riptide Laboratory
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Path to Exile
2 Wrath of God
2 Flusterstorm
2 Disenchant
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Crucible of Worlds
I haven't tested my list much but on paper, it seems fine. There doesn't appear to be anything it cannot handle. It seems like this deck's worst matchups are Maverick and Dredge and the sideboard addresses it. I used to splash red for REB/Blood Moon but I feel like keeping it in UW for the Wastelands and Mishras and the more streamlined board.