Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

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Originally Posted by Hopo

What's so silly about that? There's a huge difference in playing Time walk when you have 2 lands on board comparing to having a Batterskull or Jace on board. That's where real Time Walk shines. You can use it when you really need it. What I tried to say is that casting Time Walk as soon as you have the chance is usually (if ever) not optimal.
Also, regarding statistics, by the time you have 2 lands in play there's basically a 50% chance (49,85% to be precise) that you have already naturally drawn a copy if you play it as a 4-of. On the draw it's even higher. Of course, for example in blade control 4 is most likely a wrong number.

I'm sure some Jace-oriented control deck will find a way to play a few copies, but that's quite different to falling of the sky or ruining the format or something like that. There could even be Turbofogish deck emerging, but the format has so many tools to handle these kind of cards that it's not even funny.

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Why all the hate? I'm sure 3-4 would be a right number, depending on the deck. All it takes is 1 brainstorm or jace to put it back on top if in your opening hand. Or you can just pitch it to force. If naturally drawn, I'd gladly play it as there is no downside to casting it. The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it?

But if you naturally draw/set it up correctly in the midgane, it is absolutely bonkers. That itself should warrant playing it as a 3/4 of. Gut feel tells me 3 is a good number because having 2 in your opening hand is terrible ala mox diamond.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it? .

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I find those things quite relevant and taxing. To me, it's not clear at all why the card should be super good. I see that it could be under some circumstances, but peoples' comments here remind me of MTGSalvation and it hurts.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Hey bruizar I wrote this in the other thread, but since you're still saying silly things I thought maybe you hadn't read it. If there's any thing in there that confuses you I'll be happy to simplify it. I'm just trying to help the conversation along so you can maybe improve your understanding of the game a bit.

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I hadn't read your response. I can tell you what time walk does.

It: allows you to drop more mana when you are being
Tied down by spheres and dont havr h.recall.

Allows you to tinker for blightsteel and win before passin the turn.

Allows you to reset your mana pool leading to more degenerate plays

Allows you to oath for runescarred demon picking timewalk, and doing that a vouple of times so that your opponent never geta another turn before you kill him.

Among other things.

Cube isnt really a format i'd compare to legacy.

I think you really underestimate the impact of having 1 mana more than your opponent, which is what miracle walk does at a bare minimum. Things like punishing fire work very well alongside miracle walk. It also works very well with counterspell. You can cast your stuff, time walk, then pass with countermana up. The thing is, it may be a midgame bomb, but its also a free cantrip that accelerates your mana in the early game and the few circumstances that it ends up in your hand, you can still set it up to accelerate you.

Im on my iphone now so i cant really do any complex math here but:
4 miracle walk = 40 pc chance of opening with one
4 miracle wall/ 4 brainstorm = 16 pc chance of drawing one
That means, in one of four mathes you open with walk and without brainstorm. Im not even includig force of will or sdt in the equation but as you can see there are all sorts of moderating effects from other cards that reduce thr impact of the miracleblowout.

Lets estimate that you would have to Be forced to mulligan 2 x in a tournament, the question is i that drawback outweighs the advantage of 4 time walks. (you are not forced to play immediately, since you are not forced to play brainstorm immediately).

My verdict is: yes, given enough moderators, miracle walk is straight up broken.

Also, miracle walk with lingering sould is pretty awesome.

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Originally Posted by ivanpei

Why all the hate? I'm sure 3-4 would be a right number, depending on the deck. All it takes is 1 brainstorm or jace to put it back on top if in your opening hand. Or you can just pitch it to force. If naturally drawn, I'd gladly play it as there is no downside to casting it. The only issue I see with the card is its opportunity cost. What do you cut? Are you going to be threat light? Do you have to shift to a more aggressive plan to take advantage of it?

But if you naturally draw/set it up correctly in the midgane, it is absolutely bonkers. That itself should warrant playing it as a 3/4 of. Gut feel tells me 3 is a good number because having 2 in your opening hand is terrible ala mox diamond.

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Considering the statistics I posted some pages ago, I fully agree with this. Listen to Ivanpei, he's a man of vision. ^^

Koth often finds his way into Imperial Painter. I haven't seen Chandra in any Legacy deck...she's even horrible in Standard.

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Originally Posted by bruizar

I hadn't read your response. I can tell you what time walk does.

It: allows you to drop more mana when you are being
Tied down by spheres and dont havr h.recall.

Allows you to tinker for blightsteel and win before passin the turn.

Allows you to reset your mana pool leading to more degenerate plays

Allows you to oath for runescarred demon picking timewalk, and doing that a vouple of times so that your opponent never geta another turn before you kill him.

Among other things.

Cube isnt really a format i'd compare to legacy.

I think you really underestimate the impact of having 1 mana more than your opponent, which is what miracle walk does at a bare minimum. Things like punishing fire work very well alongside miracle walk. It also works very well with counterspell. You can cast your stuff, time walk, then pass with countermana up. The thing is, it may be a midgame bomb, but its also a free cantrip that accelerates your mana in the early game and the few circumstances that it ends up in your hand, you can still set it up to accelerate you.

Im on my iphone now so i cant really do any complex math here but:
4 miracle walk = 40 pc chance of opening with one
4 miracle wall/ 4 brainstorm = 16 pc chance of drawing one
That means, in one of four mathes you open with walk and without brainstorm. Im not even includig force of will or sdt in the equation but as you can see there are all sorts of moderating effects from other cards that reduce thr impact of the miracleblowout.

Lets estimate that you would have to Be forced to mulligan 2 x in a tournament, the question is i that drawback outweighs the advantage of 4 time walks. (you are not forced to play immediately, since you are not forced to play brainstorm immediately).

My verdict is: yes, given enough moderators, miracle walk is straight up broken.

Also, miracle walk with lingering sould is pretty awesome.

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Have you actually played any games with it, because I have and it is not broken by any means of the word. You have to be ahead to get any real value from it and by then it is just a win more card. One game I managed to take 3 extra turns and still lost. The conditions on when you can actually cast it are to restrictive for it to be broken in legacy.

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Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun

Have you actually played any games with it, because I have and it is not broken by any means of the word. You have to be ahead to get any real value from it and by then it is just a win more card. One game I managed to take 3 extra turns and still lost. The conditions on when you can actually cast it are to restrictive for it to be broken in legacy.

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I can't think of a remotely good deck in legacy that can take 3 extra turns in the mid game and still lose. It wouldn't have even mattered what cards you drew in that case...

How do people use Time Walk in Vintage? Do something broken, cast it, hit the killing blow in the extra turn. Or, do something half broken, generate card advantage, take an extra turn and get really ahead with the card advantage. Usually these require accelerants (mox, lotus), huge draw spells (recall, gush) or broken shit like Yawgmoth's Will. The power of Time Walk is boosted by the rest of the deck and stupid things you can do in a turn.

In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

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Originally Posted by Kich867

I can't think of a remotely good deck in legacy that can take 3 extra turns in the mid game and still lose. It wouldn't have even mattered what cards you drew in that case...

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It was Adam Barnello's RUG list from his article on channelfireball.com. That game the first two extra turns I took my board state was OK but my opponent killed one of my creatures before I could attack and the extra turn was meaningless. The last one, I was dying to a Thrun on his next attack so I just took the extra turn to dig and didn't find anything.

I don't know Ajani Vengeant is pretty good right? And he is sort of red.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

How do people use Time Walk in Vintage? Do something broken, cast it, hit the killing blow in the extra turn. Or, do something half broken, generate card advantage, take an extra turn and get really ahead with the card advantage. Usually these require accelerants (mox, lotus), huge draw spells (recall, gush) or broken shit like Yawgmoth's Will. The power of Time Walk is boosted by the rest of the deck and stupid things you can do in a turn.

In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

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I don't think Blue MUD would be able to facilitate it. The blue versions usually runs Chalice of the Void for protection instead of Welder (granted, they can run Spellskite in its place). And Chalice always gets one counter. Running Brainstorm just to run Temporal Mastery would be inefficient. Beside, MUD lists already have their version of Time Walk in the form of Lightning Greaves/Thousand-Year Elixir/Hall of the Bandit Lord. Not to mention Trinisphere/Tangle Wire/Spheres can create a pseudo-Time Walk under the right circumstances.

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Originally Posted by bilb_o

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In Legacy, if you build the deck around Time Walk 2.0 and allocate slots to get past the restriction you are already cutting down the cards which will give you the edge after a Time Walk. Without accelerants and bombs like Tinker, Will etc. I doubt that Time Walk 2.0 will break the format.

However I wonder if you can brew an effective Blue MUD list with Top, Brainstorm, Forgemaster, Blightsteel and Time Walk 2.0...

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Except for some strange stuff like Serra Avenger, cards that aren't in play (or suspended) don't really have any positive interaction with Time Walk or its friends. To get something out of it, you really need some kind of a board presence. In Vintage, I would expect, it's all about plopping down a bunch of mana sources that can then be untapped and reused - a bit like a [cards]Reset[/card] that cantrips, and that you can cast on your own turn.

An issue here is that the Miracle mechanics interact relatively poorly with most of the card advantage engines people like to use - more or less by design. Because you only get one chance to Miracle per turn, a deck with heavy hand filling power will probably tend to choke on them.



Based on that, I'd be looking at decks that don't draw heavily, and tend to have a significant board presence to work well with Time Walk 2.0. More turns also means more chances to miracle. Since miracle will work on the opponent's turn too - light card draw works well with it. Finally, there are a couple of cards that can allow you to recover some value from a 'dead drawn' miracle card -- Brainstorm,Chrome Mox and, for Time Walk 2.0 Force of Will come to mind - though there are also some more obscure possibilities like Scroll Rack.

This suggests that the decks best-positioned to take advantage of Time Walk 2.0 will be ones that play 2 or 3 of Brainstorm, FoW, and Chrome Mox, and like to establish a board position.

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Originally Posted by TooCloseToTheSun

It was Adam Barnello's RUG list from his article on channelfireball.com. That game the first two extra turns I took my board state was OK but my opponent killed one of my creatures before I could attack and the extra turn was meaningless. The last one, I was dying to a Thrun on his next attack so I just took the extra turn to dig and didn't find anything.

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These are situations I see happening with the card pretty frequently against a cautious player. From the sound of it, most definitely anything else you would have drawn wouldn't have won. What did you replace for TM's?

Descendents Path looks pretty good for tribal decks.

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Originally Posted by The Big Ragu

Descendents Path looks pretty good for tribal decks.

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Merfolk and Goblins want to play a 3 drop enchantment so that next turn they have a 30% chance of putting a 2 drop into play?

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Originally Posted by CorpT

Merfolk and Goblins want to play a 3 drop enchantment so that next turn they have a 30% chance of putting a 2 drop into play?

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I was thinking more so along the lines of casual tribal decks. Elves, for example. Guess I should have specified that.

New miracle card:

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...2&d=1334247412

Would probably be best on a deathtouch creature, a huge fatty to utilize the trample or, considering of the cheap removal, a creature with protection/hexproof.

Does beserk stompy want this? I'm really not sure.

the one green alternate cost is tempting but Berserk Stompy and similar don't run any libarary manipulation and instead rely on redundancy. This is pretty useless.

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Originally Posted by Barook

New miracle card:
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Would probably be best on a deathtouch creature, a huge fatty to utilize the trample or, considering of the cheap removal, a creature with protection/hexproof.

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I had hoped for a Miracle creature. This looks unplayable, though probably not so bad in limited...