That's very true. Thanks. However I wouldn't say you autolose as you can just dread return lab maniac and pass the turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
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That's very true. Thanks. However I wouldn't say you autolose as you can just dread return lab maniac and pass the turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
That is a viable option, but then you open up the possibility to losing to, STP, Bolt, Forked Bolt, Abrupt Decay, among other things, I just don't feel like it's good to give them a turn ever. Which is why I like to have the chewer somewhere in the 75.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
I've not encountered the Chalice in my meta, but I've also been taking a break from Sanic and All the Spells lately for reasons I mentioned earlier. I think Chewer is a pretty important thing to consider, but I'm wondering how often it comes up. I'm still sticking with the Belcher board plan (and the eight-Rogue, no-non-mana-tutor mainboard after testing Bring to Light and Worldly Tutor again), so I've got three slots in the side for experimentation. Still toying with Unmask and a couple of one-mana discard spells with Carpet of Flowers, but without any conclusive evidence (lack of opportunities for testing). I'm still more worried about countermagic, but I've got limited playtesting data. So I guess what I'm saying is my strategy in building the deck and sideboard has been to focus more on specific hate cards than on broader builds, and the biggest problems have been countermagic and (to a lesser extent) targeted discard. What do you think are the biggest threats? Do you have a different philosophy re: deck and board construction?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
If there is a CotV, you do not have to fear StP, bolt or forked bolt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
And I do not think there is a lot of decks featuring CotV + decay (only sylvan plug come to my mind).
So I really do not think you have to worry about CotV post-combo. Worry about it preventing you to combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Very good points. Thank you for mentioning them. I may play a second bridge in the deck now over it. There has been a decent amount of time where it still has been good having the chewer but perhaps it really isn't needed at all.
I still don't like giving my opponents any more time than necessary.
As far as post board goes, I'm still playing the belcher plan, I just think it's the most consistent and you can keep in both combos in the deck as well if needed.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=80545
That's the list I play and I stick with and have had the most success with. As I've said before on this thread I don't personally see the value of trying to build a SB that deals with GY hate I feel like it makes the deck a turn 2/3 combo deck and if that's what we are doing we should be playing storm.
You shouldn't be worrying about hate cards imo. You just worry about force and whether or not they have it. (as pointed out i'll be cutting the chewer for another bridge or therapy) Trying to interact with this deck makes it a bad combo deck I think.
That looks like a really solid board. Regarding adding a Bridge and/or subtracting a Narco, I noticed that there's a fundamental benefit to running 4x Narco, 1x Bridge over 3x Narco, 2x Bridge, which is that, of the five cards in that part of the package, you're able to combo off of either Rogue with a Narco and a Bridge in hand if you're running the 4-1 split, but you can't combo off of Undercity Informer with a Narco and a Bridge in hand in the 3-2 split. In both the 4-1 and the 3-2 split, you can't combo off of Informer with two Narcos in hand. So the 4-1 is more stable in this regard, but has fewer imprint sources for black mana than the 3-2 and doesn't synergize as well with Cabal Therapy. Were you considering running a 4-2 package?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
I have two big questions. The first is, have you noticed a decrease in consistency with only nineteen initial mana sources vs. an added Summoner's Pact or Tinder Wall? [EDIT: yeah, I know, the Wall isn't an initial source.] I don't like the Wall (or more than one Manamorphose) in this deck because they're tougher to use with rituals than the other mana sources or fixers are, but I feel like a full quad of the Pact is flirting with disaster. I've died from having an SPact countered after casting one prior. Good times!
My second question is, how have you been fairing against heavy control? It's an uphill battle even with four Pact of Negation, so I was wondering whether you've considered maining the Pacts and boarding in, say, 2x Carpet of Flowers, 2x Autumn's Veil.
Thanks for the feedback, and well done on keeping the deck alive!
The only deck that plays chalice and any of those cards is aggro loam... (decay)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
Yeah I tend to agree. I've been running a couple Thoughtseize in the main just to combat force/daze etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jtorrez
And I favour the 3-2 split with Narc's/Bridge, solely for the fact you can end up with a large amount of zombies to sacrifice, and you can imprint one of them without a worry.
Here's what I ran last night below.
I went 3-2, and considering I played mostly blue opponents I think that was fairly lucky.
Beat U-Merfolk, G-Elves, UG Infect. Lost to UW-Miracles, Grixis control (heavy discard)
4x Balustrade Spy
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
1x Laboratory Maniac
3x Narcomoeba
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Street Wraith
4x Undercity Informer
1x Underworld Cerberus
1x Wild Cantor
2x Bridge from Below
4x Cabal Ritual
4x Dark Ritual
2x Thoughtseize
2x Manamorphose
3x Summoner's Pact
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Dread Return
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
SIDE===
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Dark Petition
2x Carpet of Flowers
As you can see I'm going fearless here with no anti-hate. It wasn't ideal, but I figured why not try it?!?!
For what it's worth, I kept all 6 discard in there for the vast majority.
I probz will include some answers next time I go out, but I DID enjoy the extra discard. I was more able to attack with any discard in hand from the outset and try to kill their chances of counter. I hate having to count my therapies so I don't screw up my combo turn.
I've been doing some testing with Wordly Tutor, but I just keep finding the "on top of deck" to really limit our lines of play, even if we include a full set of Probe, Manamorphose and Wraith. Have any of you tested with this card?
My results so far have been mixed... still not convinced enough to use it "in the wild" yet.
I've also been testing out 1 or 2 Dark Petition. So far I'm not convinced with this one either, as it really requires more than the original 5 mana to actually win through it. Aiming high for 6 mana (DP > Spy/Informer) or higher again for belcher just isn't all that reliable, given I don't think our mana base really supports more than 4 mana in a single turn. That's said, if we can make it work, it might be useful?
Solid showing, esp. given that Miracles is probably the worst matchup I can imagine with our deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
How did you find the 3x SPact, 2x Manamorph to work out for you? Anything noticeable? I like running Thoughtseize, but I'm curious as to whether you found yourself with enough mana to cast it very often. Have you tried just boarding in additional Carpets for some extra gas?
Funny story: first time I played the deck, I went 2-1 at a local. First match was the one I lost, and it was in game 3. Guy was playing RUG Delver, so I figured there was no way he wouldn't have a Force to stop the combo. For reasons I don't remember (inexperience?) I went for the Belcher plan, but had a kind of confusing hand with SPacts, Spoils, and no Belcher but an LED (I think). I tried to Therapy to ensure the coast was clear, saw NOTHING OF VALUE, realized I'd miscounted mana, and cratered because I'd cast SPact.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
I guess I tell that story to ask whether you had mana trouble with the 6-discard plan. How's it been comparing with Pact of Negation?
I tested both tutors quite a bit, but never took either one to a tournament. Worldly is a solid card, and the "topdeck" part isn't actually that big a problem. The tough part is jumping hoops to make it happen. See, you can exile a Guide to play Worldly during your opponent's turn, which is pretty super, but I kept finding that I would come up short to cast it the following turn because, as I may have said already, it's a lot easier to barf out a bunch of mana at the same time than it is to use your initial sources piecemeal over two turns. I kept finding that I'd have Worldly in my hand but I'd have to wait 2-3 turns (or more) to find enough mana to jam it. [EDIT: As often as not, I'd draw into a Rogue instead of more mana and just combo with that, forgoing the Tutor and making it a dead card. The same is true for the other tutors, etc. I discuss below.]Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
Petition, like Living Wish, is a doozy. I'm inclined to say that Petition is a better card, esp. as a singleton, but that both are just too expensive. Sure, there's always the Chancellor of the Tangle plan, but I don't think Chancellor is anywhere near versatile enough to include unless we've got a really solid plan to make use of it. Keeps turning into a dead card, and the imprint strategy is really narrow. I've had a lot of trouble getting to five mana with the standard list, and getting to six feels like a really tall order.
I tried Bring to Light for a bit as a singleton. It made for much more streamlined plays when it worked (faster/less finnicky than Worldly, cheaper than Petition), but I felt like it required a lot of work to build around it, including upping the Manamorphose count to four again, probably cutting... something for Chancellors (sad face), and throwing in more copies of Wild Cantor or Tinder Wall. Felt like the whole shell of the deck would require a pretty radical redesign to make it work. I'm all for trying it, but it feels like we'd essentially be playing the Wish version without a wishboard; sideboarding would be really difficult because our win package would be so clunky; we're going back to running cards I have found to be the least useful, and running the weakest cards that make the cut in multiples; and I've only got one BtL.
Anyone got any ideas?
Cheers, yeah I got pretty lucky.
The main thing that counts in Thoughtzeizes' favour for me, is that it's (for me) almost always the obvious imprint-target, meaning it's not the best card we have.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
BUT, it does give us extra "is the coast clear?" knowledge together with Probe.
I only had two of them, so the effect isn't all that, but I felt better knowing I had 6 cards in the deck that could show me an opponents' hand before a combo turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Bear in mind Therapy is probably my favourite card ever, so anything that can make it better is a win for me.
I know Therapy is a marginal choice for some people, so I won't go too much further than that.
All that said, Pact is probably still stronger, but getting multiple's can really hurt our chances of going off, whereas I feel Thoughtseize doesn't so much given it's black to satisfy imprint.
Also, getting a grip of Thoughtseize and a Therapy can be quite destructive. This was aim when I included it, and it didn't disappoint.
BtL looks cool, but 5cmc is a stretch. It would pretty hard to fetch our Spy with it too....Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Yeah I've been playing around with the idea of including a full 4 of Wraith, Manamorphose and Probe, for the simple reason of 1-2 Worldy Tutor.
Cabal Therapy is cool and all, but it's job can be accomplished with a single Phantasmagorian in a lot of cases.
So I could out Therapy for 4x Pact potentially, plus some Chancellor of the Annex if they fit, to try and increase our chance of a Turn1 win.
So far I'm certain it's not a great way to go, but I'm testing it.
I've been thinking about my sideboard and what cards to include to combat discard (thoughtseize, hymn) and counterspells. Usually the problem is the same as any turn 1 deck: You play a bunch of mana spells followed by a business spell that ends up getting countered. Or turn 1 they thoughtseize your business spell.
I've been considering Reanimate as a sideboard option vs discard and heavy counterspell decks. It's by far more effective vs counterspells because of its mana cost of one black mana. After a turn 1 FoW on a spy/informer, you don't have to wait to draw a bunch of mana + another spy. You simply need B to bring back a spy or 1B to bring back an informer and go off. Perhaps 2-3 in the sideboard would be good. Note that I'm not on the Belcher plan and that I play 4 Pact of Negation maindeck.
I tested with Reanimate a little while back. I liked it, but I got told here I this thread it was tested, and it was bad. I'm not sure either way as I never tested it against actual humans.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
If you were able to not only discard, but reanimate in the same turn (aswell as the normal plan), it could be alright provided we could Probe/Thoughtseize their hand to see if the coast was clear. 4x Thoughtseize & 4x Therapy, together with 4x Reanimate from the side is something I might test next time I go out.
I'm thinking side in a full 4 Thoughtseize & Reanimate, keep 4 Therapy (so we can target ourselves potentially) and side out S-Pact, Manamorphose & Wild Cantor.
My point was to use reanimate as "defensive spell". BUG delver for example, has thoughtseize, fow, daze, spell pierce, hymn, flusterstorm.... To me it's a no-brainer to side in reanimate. You side out cards that do nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
So apparently an Oops All Spells deck made Day 2 at GP Seattle...does anybody know the pilot and/or decklist?
Hopefully he'll give this thread a visit! :)
Took my list to a proxy legacy tournament (75 card proxy). Total of 26 people, and I took 2nd. Honestly, if I got to go against the 4-0 (I was 3-1, he was playing dredge), I probably would have gotten first.
The top 4
1. Dredge
2. Poncheros (Because I love their burritos the most)
3. Dredge
4. Miracles
About a third played countertop decks (All but 1 was miracles), another third played shardless BUG, and everything else was a 2x of Lands, Dredge, Enchantress, and singletons of 12post, Nic Fit, and Infect.
My list:
2 Street Wraith
3 Tinder Wall
1 Underworld Cerberus
1 Laboratory Maniac
2 Wild Cantor
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Undercity Informer
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
1 Pact of Negation
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Grim Monolith
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Currently testing a 1x of pact just to improve our chances of having some protection in the starting hand. I cut the Gix Probes and 2 Street wraiths because delaying the inevitable (force) just makes our chances of losing higher if they draw into better cards, i.e other counters, more forces, hand disruption. 3x Manamorphose is justified by the 2x Wild Cantor, which does colour splashing just as well and doesn't make us feel bad if we have to pitch one to chrome mox. Plus, the card draw doesn't really mean that much.
The sideboard is all belcher stuff, because all the protection is mainboard. Take out 4x Spy, 4x Informer, 4x Narcomoeba, and the basic combo (Lab Maniac, Cerberus, and Dread Return) for the whole shebang. Obviously, we can't do anything about chalice on 0 and chalice on 1 on the draw, but hoping for your 1x Ingot Chewer is hardly going to make a meaningful difference. On the play, always go for the normal kill lest you know they sided in Leyline of the Void; you should be able to go off somewhere close to 50-60% of the time on the play. With that being said, without adequate knowledge of sideboard, go with the belcher kill G2 play or draw.
My games:
Shardless BUG 2-0
Won the dice roll and went off before the players next to us started the game. G2 he didn't keep a force in favor of a Nihil Spellbomb, which turned out useless as I threw out a belcher T1 and top decked dark ritual for the win.
Miracles 2-0
Lost the dice roll, but still went off T1 because he didn't have a force. G2, I got his top with Chancellor of the Annex and managed to keep a couple of ramp spells after he forced my charbelcher. Top decked a spoils of the vault while he flipped an island off counterbalance, loss 13 life to get my belcher and get it out. 2 turns late won with a top deck LED.
Miracles 0-2
People finally figured out what I was playing, so he kept a one lander with 2 forces and the cards to pitch. Won the dice roll, but he force'd my cabal therapy and my spy. Didn't manage to stabilize before he got a counterbalance lock on me. G2 he had a force for my dark ritual and got a counterbalance out. Blind flipped a venser to try and counter some ramp with 4 lands out and I just scooped.
Elves 2-1
Lost the dice roll, won T1. G2 I lost off flipping 24 cards with Spoils of the Vault. G3 I kept the belcher combo in (Should have switched it out though). Got a belcher out T1 (Spoils of the Vault hitting me for only 2) and managed to dodge him going off for 3 turns and won off lotus petals and SSG.
Affinity 2-1
Won the dice roll, and won T1. G2 he had a chalice on 0 and I couldn't get any ramp off, pretty much the only time when I maybe would have considered Rite of Flame. G3 I won on the play T1 because he didn't have a mindbreak trap.
Overall, I do enjoy the deck a lot. Hopefully the pact I'm testing will be enough to increase our win percentage against force of will.
First off, well done! I'm in a place without many Legacy players, so it's good to see people knocking over bigger tournaments with Sanic and pals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
Assuming this is a reference to a local place, but I love the name. Stick with it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
Seems to be an unconventional list. How did the Tinder Walls work for you? I've found them at least as difficult to cast as the Rogues, and I haven't run them in about a year because they compete with the Rogues for the mana we can get off of Moxen and Petals. Seems like 4 Narco, 0 Bridge worked for you, but I'm wondering how much of that was a product of the metagame where you are. Have you run into Bolt, StP, or Pyrokinesis? Those have convinced me that a 5-card graveyard engine was important. I like having six pieces of protection in the main (Therapy, Pact, and 4 Chancellors), but (and don't take this as criticism!) I'm wondering what your reasoning was behind these specific choices. I'm also running six pieces of protection, but in the form of three Therapies and four Pacts (EDIT: I've been over why I count six here instead of seven). I have definitely considered cutting a Wraith and maybe a Probe to try a split between Pact and Chancellor, but I feel like the deck loses consistency. Of course, the plus-side of having more than one Chancellor is that we can lock people out of the first two (or more) turns of the game if we draw them in multiples, but that doesn't help if we need to draw into more win conditions (we're not getting anywhere turn-for-turn if we have to draw-go when they can't cast anything). I've been using a quad of Pact instead because we can use it in subsequent turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
You're right that if our opponents have the answer, any amount of draws won't stop them from playing that answer. With that being said, the big advantage to having cyclers is that they help us recover if we get Forced early on. Also, playing with fewer than sixty cards is always good, even after we've boarded in Spoils. Not sure how your testing has gone, but for me, I noticed a slight increase in consistency with 4 Wraiths and 3 Probes that has led me to stick with them. For real, confirmed, on-video evidence of the power of cantrips, watch this (starting at 19:40. WAIT FOR IT!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaMInaV-Ubk. If you've already seen it, sorry for rubbing it in; just feels like one of the greatest things on the Internet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
Have you noticed color-fixing to be that big of a problem? I cut way back on color-fixers generally, and it hasn't been a significant hindrance. Of course, cyclers also make it a bit easier to work with singleton Manamorphose and Cantor. (I know Manamorphose is a cantrip, but I'm referring to "free" ones here because paying mana for anything but a Ritual or a Rogue has been difficult in my testing.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
Yep; definitely our worst matchup. Have you playtested the anti-hate sideboards that have been posted in the thread? If so, what was your impression?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
I need to see this!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziveeman
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
The combination of Manamorphose and Wild Cantor (which means also Summoner's Pact) makes the double red fine. Obviously, there have been times where I have struggled with finding a decent black source or a green source to activate it, but it does double as a chrome mox imprint or cabal therapy flashback.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
I have not, but nobody sided in Pyrokinesis/REB against me, and people often sided out their spot removal after G1. Not sure if that was because they needed to cut things, or if it was because they don't really know these lists. If I was going to use Bridges, it would definitally be a 3/2 split of Narcomoeba/Bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
To be honest, I was considering a third Therapy instead of pact, but ended up with Pact because it doesn't cost mana. The 4 Chancellors in theory should be better as they can, and often will, delay our opponent at least a turn or two if we have a slower, yolo hand, and obviously act as a strong guard against a single FoW if we go off T1. However, the problem that I found against FoW decks was that having 4 pieces of "real" protection (I do not really count Therapy as protection as I only have 2 and only got one chance to use it) was not enough. Depending on how much it hurts consistency, I am considering raising the count to 2 pacts in the MB, cutting either a Tinder Wall or Manamorphose (Not sure if I can justify the 3 tinder walls with only 2 manamorphose and 2 Wild Cantor, time will tell!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
No complaints here, if I managed to slam down a cabal ritual like that, I can definitely respect the choice. However, I think the life cost can definitely matter in matchups where if we get forced, we have to wait a few turns (Namely Delver decks). In place, I have the cards that we would like to draw into, ramp. At the cost of betting all my money on one horse, I saw a marginally higher increase in T1 going-offs. If I was running the Gix Probe/Street Wraith package, I would definitely be going 4x Pact instead of Chancellors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
It is a much larger hindrance when Tinder Walls come into play. Running 4 of them resulted in me being able to get one (Either by draws or Summoner's Pact) in a majority of my games, which in turn allowed more fetchable ramp, at the cost of sometimes being screwed by not having black sources, which has come up a surprising amount of games (IIRC, 3 games where I had to wait on a black source).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Since I throw caution to the wind in my main board, I hold the same philosophy to the sideboard. Throwing 4x Ingot Chewers may allow us to win through chalice on the play, but at the cost of substantially slowing down our wins. Running the full Belcher suite (Which is what I have found to work best; really makes them angry when they side in 6 pieces of grave hate...) and making it go off faster is more important than minor protection. If there was a green creature that did the same thing for the same evoke cost, I would consider running it however. Plus, if they see it coming, you have to race the Pithing Needle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
Just want to clarify a few things:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobbunny
—I wasn't saying the double-red output was the problem with Tinder Wall; I was saying that finding an initial green source AND a color-fixer for black mana (and an additional accelerant) in the same hand was the difficult part. Manamorphose has the same problem, sort of: instead of needing an initial green source and a color-fixer to work, Manamorphose requires two initial mana sources or (if you're running them) an initial green source AND a Tinder Wall (plus, again, further mana acceleration). Essentially, I just kept finding that the deck needed to do more mana-filtering gymnastics or mulligan more in order to accommodate Tinder Walls and large numbers of Manamorphose. Have you experienced a similar problem? You're right that needing to filter red mana into black mana is another problem, and it's one of the reasons I don't run the Wall.
—I don't think people were suggesting a full quad of Chewers. It looks like you misunderstood what people were using them to do: you don't need to gamble that it'll be in your opening hand because the (post-Rogue) death trigger on Underworld Cerberus returns Ingot Chewer to your hand to cast against Chalice on 1. That clears the way to cast Wild Cantor. There is a problem with Chalice if our only color-fixer in the opening hand is Cantor, though, and one Chewer isn't likely to stop that. Chalice on zero is also a big problem, and I'm not sure how best to deal with it except to get lucky or board into a full quad of Manamorphose.
So in light of my first point, do you still think Tinder Wall is worth it? I feel like having three Therapies is useful for imprinting, and I feel like I've had more consistent results with the cyclers than with added mana sources that have stringent prerequisites.
If you're worried about the life-loss from cantrips and you still want to use Tinder Walls and a set of Manamorphose, why not go back to the Azami/Angel plan? Running two Street Wraiths means your combo will take up an additional slot for the win package. I'd recommend running more cyclers and cutting the Walls because Street Wraiths add a lot of imprint value, but if you've got that much color-fixing, it might not matter either way. Interested to hear what you think!