Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
I did some test runs with Capsize in the sideboard, and just about every time where I could wish for it to bounce candel for infinite mana, and then bounce a top for infinite card draw on myself, I could have gotten there without having to do that, or I could have just wished for Brain Freeze and won at that point. I "almost" did a Capsize in the sideboard in place of one of the other bounce spells but after testing, I just felt like it was one of those "win more" cards. I don't know if that helps or not, but in my experience the Capsize is just not necessary. It is fun to bounce all the opponents permanents before a Time Spiral though ha ha.
As for Brain Freeze, I almost never go for that as the kill, so much so that when I first started playing the deck I didn't even run it. Then after some discussion I was basically talked into why I should be running it. Since adding it, I have had times where Brain Freeze got me there where Blue Sun's Zenith wouldn't have, or would have been excessively difficult to do so. One example would be opposing Surgical Extraction on High Tide. If your Islands are only tapping for 2 for a long time because of that, once you get to the 17th spell, depending on the opponent's deck of course, you can just finish with Brain Freeze. While trying to get there with Blue Sun's Zenith can take a lot longer if your islands aren't tapping for 4, 5+ mana.
Also for some reason the list noted in Detroit, only shows 14 sideboard cards, the 15th slot was Flusterstorm. As for Sensei's Divining Tops, they are nice before comboing, so I wanted to add a 3rd to the main deck. But once you start combo'ing off, having multiple in play isn't as exciting, so I might go -1 Top +1 Preordain, since Preordain actually digs and puts dead stuff on the bottom. Very nice while comboing, & very nice in the early turns when you're digging for land or, well anything you need -vs- don't need.
Also I should probably note that every game 2 & 3, In addition to -1 High Tide to the sideboard, I switch it directly almost every time with the Blue Sun's Zenith to the main. The reason I do that is for the same reason the High Tide goes to the sideboard. Possible Surgical Extractions resolving from any opposing deck. If their disruption hits Cunning Wish, then they try to Extract it, I can still have access to a kill spell games 2 & 3. So basically, I have Blue Sun's Zenith in the main deck as well, but it's just never game 1 ^.^
As for more stuff about Detroit:
My 2 losses were to the Shardless Bug player known as Gearheart who made it to the finals, and the Elves player that made the top 16.
Against Gearheart round 5, I fizzled game 1, which happens sometimes, but it caused that loss. Then game 2 they had enough discard to disrupt my hand enough, then at the point of casting a Ponder, they in response played Notion Thief, I had no counters in hand, so it resolved and I pretty much knew at that point I was very likely to lose. Which did happen a few turns later.
As for the Elves player. I won game 1, and I probably shoulda won game 2, but I thought they played a land for the turn already, so I didn't see them having access to White mana. I wanted to at end of turn bounce Gaddock Teeg, so I could go off next turn (Tide & Spiral in hand) But they went to cast a Glimpse of Nature. 3 green mana floating & some elves to do effects for potentially more. So I thought "ok, they have played a land already (which they hadn't actually) and they didn't have access to recast Gaddock Teeg. So I bounce the Teeg now, instead of waiting till end of turn, & then Force of Willed the Glimpse of Nature, since they hade 3+ green mana floating, & 3 cards in hand, I felt it necessary to counter the Glimpse. So it gets countered, they use an elf to untap a creature and bounce a land, then replay the land and replay Gaddock Teeg and I'm like "well crap I messed that up." During this, someone who came up with me to the event was watching and afterward said I could have probably just let Glimpse of Nature resolve and let them try to draw into the Craterhoof Behemoth, then just Force of Will the Craterhoof. They couldn't Natural Order for it or Green Sun's Zenith for it because I had a Grafdigger's Cage in play. I also found out their hand when casting the Glimpse of Nature, which was 2 Green Sun's Zenith and 1 Natural Order, as well their 2 Cabal Therapy's in the graveyard were turned off. Since it was game 2, I believe they didn't side in Abrupt Decay, but I don't know that for 100%. I'm pretty sure they just sided in disruption in the form of discard. Long story short, I very possibly could have won a game I otherwise lost, but at least I know there was a possible route to victory in that match.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
I'm loving the discussion, and I'm taking it to heart. This is what I plan on playing in Somerset in a month.
12 Island
6 Fetch
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 High Tide
4 Merchant Scroll
4 Ponder
4 Time Spiral
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Cunning Wish
3 Flusterstorm
3 Preordain
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Turnabout
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
3 Defense Grid
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Wipe Away
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Pact of Negation
1 Snap
1 Turnabout
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Di
Ah. I still favor the third Candelabra over the third Turnabout because when actually comboing it's better in multiples, thus stronger in conjunction with any Turnabouts drawn. Plus, my style of the deck leans on utilizing Blue Sun's Zenith rather often, so creating this opportunity to generate more mana there makes me keep that split. I always want to see multiple Candelabras because the 2x Candelabra ->Turnabout/Hurkyl's/Echoing Truth line just generates so much mana to consistently support a Blue Sun plan. Sometimes it sucks running more because they can get hit with a Needle, but it's a minor risk that is outweighed by the benefit. I just recognize that it's still a weaker card overall in comparison to Turnabout. But really this is a matter of play style. If you don't aggressively play Blue Sun's Zenith, or even maindeck it, then it isn't as relevant and your split is fine.
Ok. This makes a lot of sense to me, and it is nice to see the coherence of your choices with your playstyle.
Quote:
In regards to Brain Freeze, I'd never cut it. Ever. It creates too many wins that would otherwise be incredibly difficult to win, especially against the tempo decks that run so many counters. It greatly decreases the pressure on Time Spiral to deliver and also allows you to play far more aggressively after Spiral because you have a much easier route to victory. Capsize requires both a Candelabra and another draw spell to be effective, plus the mana to continually loop it. That's far more resource-intensive than stringing a handful of cantrips and then milling the top 45-48 cards of a deck, which happen naturally through the combo. Not to mention, the Brain Freeze route is vital to win when you lack the ability to generate the levels of mana needed for Blue Sun or Capsize, which happens rather often against blue decks. Granted, Capsize is fine as a bounce spell, but I can't fathom viewing it from the perspective of a win condition, and cutting an actual win condition for it. Cutting a different bounce spell? Sure. But Brain Freeze, I struggle to grasp that. One is a direct (in my case, primary) win condition that will win any non-Emrakul matchup, and the other isn't actually a win condition that still requires at least two more cards and 10+ mana to get you to the point of winning. Huge difference.
Another issue I have with the anti-Brain Freeze argument: if you're straining the deck to rely solely on Blue Sun's Zenith to win, then it greatly affects your lines of play. To me, this is negative. It means being forced to try to combo slower so you can generate more mana pre-Spiral, places much more reliance on Candelabras (and I already talked about how they do get routinely hated) and also means you need to be much more conservative with your mana and spells post-Spiral. Because you don't have a fall back of generating say ~12 mana and milking it down to finish with a Cunning Wish -> Brain Freeze, you are forced to spend time and cards to build mana to continue comboing instead of simply winning the game. Such as burning time just to cast Time Spiral again or needing to use Merchant Scrolls for Turnabouts instead of just killing them. I can pretty much guarantee this would attribute to more losses where wins would have been easily available. Any time you put the deck into a position where you need to absolutely maximize every single post-Spiral draw, you run the risk of affecting the deck's ability to actually win. It just places too much emphasis on the strength of each spell, and places too much value on individual mana to get there. I just strongly, strongly advise to never cut the card.
This is a VERY interesting section for me. I remember discussing the role of BF with esthoril (on the old topic and IRL). He was telling me that he was killing his opponents almost always with BF, while I was not the case for me. I removed BF from the sideboard after 2 tournaments because the cards was sitting there, doing nothing:
- Played against S&T.
- Played against BUG with Deathrite. If I let him untap, he would kill me in the upkeep.
- Burn, same about untapping.
I realized that BF was an alternative win condition (not my main as certain players), and I could avoid playing it if I was sure I could generate always enough mana => Capsize. I was really happy with this idea. It went even better as soon as I put Tops in my list. Having 1 Candle and 1 Top meant that a Wish is almost always lethal. In addition, I had 1 extra bounce for free (because BF does nothing on its own).
However, I read your arguments... and I understand that my thinking did not go through every step. I cut one game plan by cutting BF. I will include it in my next tournaments with the deck, but I will have to work on "seeing" the potential kill!
Thx a lot for the discussion.
@feline,
I had the same problem with the extra top. If we could play 2.5 of them, that would be perfect :)
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TiMeWaLk
This is a VERY interesting section for me. I remember discussing the role of BF with esthoril (on the old topic and IRL). He was telling me that he was killing his opponents almost always with BF, while I was not the case for me. I removed BF from the sideboard after 2 tournaments because the cards was sitting there, doing nothing:
- Played against S&T.
- Played against BUG with Deathrite. If I let him untap, he would kill me in the upkeep.
- Burn, same about untapping.
I realized that BF was an alternative win condition (not my main as certain players), and I could avoid playing it if I was sure I could generate always enough mana => Capsize. I was really happy with this idea. It went even better as soon as I put Tops in my list. Having 1 Candle and 1 Top meant that a Wish is almost always lethal. In addition, I had 1 extra bounce for free (because BF does nothing on its own).
However, I read your arguments... and I understand that my thinking did not go through every step. I cut one game plan by cutting BF. I will include it in my next tournaments with the deck, but I will have to work on "seeing" the potential kill!
The potential for an opponent to kill you on their upkeep does come up on occasion. However if that's the concern, you could still always Brain Freeze them and then send a Blue Sun's Zenith at them for one (or however many to kill them). Still saves you the trouble from having to generate 50+ mana to kill them. Sometimes you just won't have the resources available to pull it off, but in the same context as your Capsize argument, if you had the ability to Capsize, odds are you had the ability to kill them elsewhere.
As far as "seeing" the potential kill, it shouldn't be something you "do," as it should be a natural element of your game plan and be aware of. In general, you should be aware of every single option at all times with the deck. That's a lot easier said than done, but half the difficulty in winning with the deck is just understanding all the aspects of what is available and maximizing your options. But some things to keep in mind:
- You'll likely know what the opponent is playing while you're comboing, so you'll know if they run Emrakul or not. That at least tips you on whether or not the Brain Freeze option is viable.
- Storm should always be tracked regardless, as it's relevant for Flusterstorm. It boggles my mind how there are players who don't track this at all times. But it at least lets you know how close you are.
- Based on how your hand is shaping, you should know within 2-3 spells after casting Time Spiral which kill option to use. I go for Brain Freeze pretty much exclusively if I know it'll get the job done because it's far easier to win with, and requires less resources and time to pull off. For me, the main indicators in knowing are:
• What the storm count's potential can be based off all of my options (without including the opponent interacting). Unless you're positive the opponent is going to make a play, don't include their potential spells in counting.
• How many cards are in the opponent's library.
• How many Cunning Wishes have been used, how many there are immediate access to (in hand/tutors), and how many are still in the deck.
• How much mana you have available, or how much potential mana you have access to. Additionally, if the opponent can interact with mana, be it Needle on Candelabra, or High Tide getting hit by Surgical Extraction.
• How much protection you have access to. Plus if the opponent runs Stifle, and if the kill would require more protection than currently available.
• If you can win without needing to cast Time Spiral again.
• If the opponent can possibly kill you on their upkeep, or use something like Academy Ruins. This basically ties back to how many Cunning Wishes have been used/are available.
• Once all of this is established, it's pretty straight-forward to determine which kill is necessary.
In general I also prefer Brain Freeze because it frees up your choices to be a lot more flexible. When going for Blue Sun's Zenith, you need to focus the cantrips and tutors on additional High Tides and untap effects, and maybe need to Time Spiral a second or third time. With Brain Freeze I'll simply ramp up storm by chaining spell after spell mindlessly while having a better variety of what to look for, and then just Freeze them. It really just makes the deck a lot easier to play because you aren't forced into plays and trying to extend the combo, and it takes half the time to pull off. Granted it is perfectly acceptable, and good practice, to continue comboing if you know you can comfortably kill with Blue Sun's Zenith. It's the safer kill in general, so nothing wrong with going on and doing that. But just saying there's always going to be two options, so it's best to make sure you have access to both of them.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
If there would be a "like" button, I would use right now! Thanks a lot for the tips. By cutting BF, it seems I made my life easier in terms of choices (1 way to kill), but I make the deck a bit more fragile as a whole. I'll try this if I run the deck again. As you mentioned, it's terribly placed in the current metagame, so I won't play it any time soon I think :(
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Are you sure it's terribly placed in the current metagame? Technically it has 2 higher placing finishes, in a row, and that hasn't happened in over a year, heck I think a year and a half at this point. It also hasn't top 8'd in over a year, until last weekend at Dallas.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
I live in France :laugh: We may not speak about the same metagame. It's infested with Elves / Miracles / S&T here...
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
feline
Are you sure it's terribly placed in the current metagame? Technically it has 2 higher placing finishes, in a row, and that hasn't happened in over a year, heck I think a year and a half at this point. It also hasn't top 8'd in over a year, until last weekend at Dallas.
Yes. The DTB is full of matchups that are either rough but winnable (BUG Delver, RUG Delver), and bad matchups (Miracles, Sneak). There are no "free wins" for this deck anymore, except maybe Jund (and even that deck can sometimes blow you out with double discard into Surgical etc.). This remains my favorite deck in Legacy, but playing it against the current field is a huge headache even if you have the skill/practice to take down the tempo matchups.
Regarding Brain Freeze, I'm going to agree with Di here. When I originally played this deck a few years ago I almost always went for the BSZ win - the more recent times I've played it I've found Brain Freeze to be an infinitely easier win condition to execute. Time Spiralling multiple times with this deck is a trap, as every successive Spiral increases your chances of fizzling. If your first Spiral hand is good, you can often win with BF without a second Spiral - it's incredibly difficult to pull off a BSZ win under those circumstances. Simply put, Brain Freeze allows you to reduce the deck's variance when comboing, as well as win in situations where you simply don't have the resources to BSZ. I would never cut it from the board.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Admiral_Arzar
Yes. The DTB is full of matchups that are either rough but winnable (BUG Delver, RUG Delver), and bad matchups (Miracles, Sneak). There are no "free wins" for this deck anymore, except maybe Jund (and even that deck can sometimes blow you out with double discard into Surgical etc.). This remains my favorite deck in Legacy, but playing it against the current field is a huge headache even if you have the skill/practice to take down the tempo matchups.
Miracles is a bad match-up? What about what Di said on the previous page?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Di
Personally, I don't think the Miracles matchup is as bad as it looks on paper. Outside of Counterbalance, their deck is very weak. They have few hard counters, almost no clock, tons of dead cards game one, and only Clique as disruption. I think it's 50-50, maybe 45-55 their favor. That loss in the semis was actually the first time I've lost to the deck in large tournament play. As long as you can navigate around Counterbalance or bait them with things well, it isn't that difficult of a matchup. Obviously easier said than done, but I've done it enough to where I'm still comfortable with the matchup.
Doesn't seem terribly bad. And while I think we aren't in a great position against the meta, I don't think we're in a bad position, either.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
For once, I disagree with Di. Miracle is a terrible match-up. They have a lot of dead cards in the first game, but they can just steal it with CB (and we only have FoW against it...). Post side, they can have REB and Flusterstorm (usually a mix of both), and they remove a lot of their dead cards. Even Spell pierce is not dead to back-up CB early in the game. Clique can give a decent clock as well, depending on the version.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
In my experience, my counterbalance opponents have been heavily dependent on whether or not they knew how to play against High Tide. Against most I have actually won, but when I do I know it's cause they don't know the match up as well by playing it out. But going up against very experience miracle players, I have been quite crushed by them. All I know is I want to avoid counterbalance if they know how to play against High Tide, it's a total pain. If I can't combo in the earlier turns, it only gets rougher as time goes on. Obviously of course, if they resolve Counterbalance and such, that's not good. Sometimes I'll get a Wipe Away and when I'm about to at the end of their turn the Balance, they play a second one that turn. If they're smart they won't even let me tutor for a Wipe Away in the first place. Or they will keep a 3 cmc on top just to be prepared for it.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Honestly it's a matter of perspective and experience. In my albeit not-so-humble opinion, it's a 50-50 matchup. Though to be fair I've played against the deck for years and have a lot of experience against Counterbalance, so I'm comfortable playing it. Although I'll be the first to admit though that my perspective and insight into it are a bit skewed, as I'm at the point where I literally don't walk into a single matchup worried about it. So in that sense, take my numbers with a grain of salt. But I certainly wouldn't consider it easy to beat, and it's among the toughest matchups you can face.
However that all said, pilot skill is incredibly relevant in terms of how that plays out. If you're an inexperienced High Tide player, or even an adequate High Tide player who simply hasn't played against the deck very often, it can be quite difficult. It's just a matter of learning how to play against the deck, and play specifically against Counterbalance. Technically you could make the same argument for any other matchup though. But in general, you take Counterbalance outside of the equation and it is a cakewalk, as they have a handful of counters you can deal with followed by a glacially slow clock. It's just one of those decks you have to have an extremely intimate understanding of though, and that kind of preparation is rather difficult to achieve.
Additionally, I'd stand firmly on my notion that the deck is rather horribly positioned in the meta. Despite the recent success Feline and myself has seen, it really isn't an indicator of the deck's performance. Prior to her top16, how many SCG events in a row did she not place with or do poorly with beforehand? Not a knock against her at all, but illustrating the point that it's just tough to be successful with the deck in this metagame. The prior SCG I played back in November, I went 2-3 drop and was destroyed in all my losses. In the recent SCG Dallas, despite winning most rounds 2-0 and going into top8 as the #1 seed, almost every single game was difficult. I played against either a blue deck or a deck with discard (or in three cases, both) eight out of the nine rounds. That's incredibly punishing over the course of a long tournament, and makes each round a struggle to win. Not saying it isn't doable, as we recently proved it is, but when you have to go through so many hurdles to do well with it I would make the case that it likely isn't a good choice. Furthermore, I'd also be skeptical to accept the deck's results as encouraging because it was her and I who placed with it. We're among the most dedicated and best players in the world with the deck, and have been playing it arguably the longest. So we were bound to spike eventually. But until I see it do well on a semi-regular basis in the hands of other people (or rather completely random people, not a Michael Bernat or Matthias Hunt type), then I'll continue to remain steadfast that it isn't a good choice. And I'd put my money on that side, because I don't think it's wise for people to invest their $40 entry and a long-ass day to play the deck against a wall of discard and counters unless they're extremely comfortable with it. Because otherwise, their odds are far better if they choose virtually any other deck.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Di
I'd also be skeptical to accept the deck's results as encouraging because it was her and I who placed with it. We're among the most dedicated and best players in the world with the deck, and have been playing it arguably the longest. So we were bound to spike eventually. But until I see it do well on a semi-regular basis in the hands of other people (or rather completely random people, not a Michael Bernat or Matthias Hunt type), then I'll continue to remain steadfast that it isn't a good choice. And I'd put my money on that side, because I don't think it's wise for people to invest their $40 entry and a long-ass day to play the deck against a wall of discard and counters unless they're extremely comfortable with it. Because otherwise, their odds are far better if they choose virtually any other deck.
Unfortunately this doesn't discourage me. And who knows, maybe the meta will shift slightly in a month (SCG Somerset). High Tide is the deck I'm most familiar with, though its far less than both you and Feline.
I'll try to be that random person for you.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
To be honest I don't intend to discourage anyone from playing the deck, and actively root for anybody willing to run it. I'm just a realist in the sense that I know how much of an uphill battle it is given that there are so few simple matchups and how frustrating the deck can be to play when you struggle so much to win. At the very least, people should be fully aware of what they're getting into when making that decision.
That said, I salute you Mr. astormisbrewing. Now go be that next person to put the deck on the map and make a name for yourself. :)
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Swan Song seems better than flusterstorm right now. There are times when elves will be able to afford to pay for all the flusterstorm copies and natural order resolves where a swan song would have just countered it outright. A show and tell player will also be able to pay for flusterstorm in certain circumstances and flusterstorm does not counter sneak attack. Same goes for decks that run hymn and deathrite (and probably surgical extraction game two and three). Swans counters counterbalance which is relevant right now. While comboing off flusterstorm will only be better than swansong in corner cases, and there are practical cases where swan song is much better.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.
I like hearing that it's High Tide regardless ^.^
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
princeofperasia
Someone mentioned in BoM chat that Lejay is on PiF high tide. No idea if it's true or not though, but he's making a run for top 8 either way.
Ah nevermind sorry, he's on Bug
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Quote:
Originally Posted by
clavio
Swan Song seems better than flusterstorm right now. There are times when elves will be able to afford to pay for all the flusterstorm copies and natural order resolves where a swan song would have just countered it outright. A show and tell player will also be able to pay for flusterstorm in certain circumstances and flusterstorm does not counter sneak attack. Same goes for decks that run hymn and deathrite (and probably surgical extraction game two and three). Swans counters counterbalance which is relevant right now. While comboing off flusterstorm will only be better than swansong in corner cases, and there are practical cases where swan song is much better.
If it would not give my opponent a 2/2, I would run a playset of the card over Fluster. However, you cannot afford to have 1 or 2 2/2 on the board early in certain match-ups. I would run 2 Swan Song maximum in the main for this reason.
Re: [Primer/Deck] High Tide
Rushing river seems good against multiple hate permanents. I'm probably going to drop E.Truth for it.
