[DTB] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I've been testing online since Friday non stop with UR, playtime around 11-12 hours in 2 days ^^ A couple of more things I have to add which I can say for sure now:

1. The deck is weakened a lot, but so is the meta. Gitaxian Probe was pretty busted because we were allowed to play a 56 cards deck which was insane in our prowess build. Now with Probe gone the deck is significantly slower, sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. You feel your speed loss in the early turns the most. On the other hand there are no real T1 threats anymore, I played vs. couple of Goblins and D&T builds which you need to answer possible T1 creatures, but the format looks like UR Delver being a REAL AGGRO-TEMPO build which can dominate in that category. Also Price of Progress still feels overpowered in our deck which is a good thing. This leads to point number 2.

2. Monastery Swiftspear is still a MUST in the build. So the reason for this is very simple. We are an aggro deck and we need to follow a tempo strategy. The format without Shaman is 1. slower (because all the shells are missing the most powerful dork) and 2. better for combo (because blue decks got worse in genereal, slower in cantripping and finding counterspells and hate cards because of Shaman ban). Means for both you need Swiftspear to 1. make Tempo yourself to follow your aggro plan 2. actually being able to race combo decks. The 2. point is insane, Swiftspear is even when weakened a necessary evil to race combo such as ANT, TES, Lands, even Reanimator and something like Charbelcher. So where Canadian Thresh can be a little slow and have to rely on Stifles, Wasteland and counterspells, Ur Delver can be better by making more damage and being faster in general. I also tested a build without Swiftspears but 3 Lavamancer, 4 Delver, 3 YP, 2 Snapcaster and 2 TNN and the build was just okay but not fast enough to beat several combo decks.

3. D&T with Brightling and Goblins became new decks to beat or lets say bad matchups for us. Both decks can screw us hard soooo I feel that 2 Lavamancer are needed to try to improve these matchups. Also Goblins is not an aggro deck, they play very midrange like so it becomes difficult to fight through Chalice, Vial, Wastelands and several Goblins. Also Lavamancer is a more steady card so it makes the deck without Probe more consistent.

4. Stormchaser and Bedlam Reveler feel like being dead. I could not make them look good in my build since the ban. Reveler looks good on paper but is just awful drawing it early. Also now with having to fight vs. D&T and Stoneblade decks instead of 4c Control Reveler got even worse and Lavamancer is needed. So I cut Reveler and Stormchaser entirely from my list. Its time to play Snapcaster in UR I think.

5. 1-2 Preordain are fine, didn't like to have more.

cheers

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I've been playtesting all weekend and I came to very similar conclusions. The tempo/Japanese build was a little clunky, I'm not writing it off completely as playing that style of deck is very new to me, so some pilot error may be a factor.

Instead of Preordain, I have been testing two copies of Chart a Course, and I have been very happy with it so far, card advantage is hard to come by in Legacy.

I have cut Stormchaser Mage's and Reveler's from my deck as well for 2 TNN and 2 Pyromancers. I've also chosen to run a single copy of Pyrokenisis in my SB for D&T (and Goblins). I've also found since D&T is on the rise again the Smash to Smithereens in my SB are better replace with Abrade's.

My current iteration:

2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Chart a Course

4 Delver of Secrets
2 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear

3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
1 Fireblast
1 Fire // Ice (been going back and forth between Fire//Ice and Dead//Gone, both are decent flex cards)

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

[Sideboard]
2 Flusterstorm
2 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
2 Abrade
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Submerge
1 Pyrokinesis

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Overall, I think the amount of combo will remain mostly the same, with BR Reanimator and Turbo Depths (i.e fast combo) being the hardest ones to deal with for this deck.

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Postboard I see Reanimator as a better matchup than ANT or TES. Storm is in general very very difficult because they have a lot of disruption and we dont have THAT many counterspells. Against Reanimator you can also play on the board with finding Vapor Snag in your next cantrip. Also Surgical Extraction works better against Reanimator than Daze or FoW against ANT imho. Just the way the matchup is played, 2 Vapor Snag + 2 Surgical + counter spells are better than only counterspells. Turbo Depths is also beatable. PoP makes ton of damage and we can race really good with Burn and Delver. Also Vapor Snag can be protected by counter spells so the hardest MU for us is still ANT and I have like over 100 games against these decks tested for sure.


@coff33bit
Swiftspear and Chart a course in the same deck? I allready tested that like 3 months ago and never liked it, for Probe substitute Preordain feels way better. It also only costs 1 mana so you play Swiftspear turn 1, t2 if you didnt find a land you can preordain, trigger prowess and digg for another land. Chart a Course should feel better in a slower version which is worse in general.
Do you like Fire//Ice or not? Have you ever used the Ice spell? If yes for what?

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

@coff33bit
Swiftspear and Chart a course in the same deck? I allready tested that like 3 months ago and never liked it, for Probe substitute Preordain feels way better. It also only costs 1 mana so you play Swiftspear turn 1, t2 if you didnt find a land you can preordain, trigger prowess and digg for another land. Chart a Course should feel better in a slower version which is worse in general.
Do you like Fire//Ice or not? Have you ever used the Ice spell? If yes for what?

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@Chart a Course: I am going to keep testing the two versions that run Preordain vs Chart a Course as my sample size is not very large at the moment with either version. However, Chart a Course offers such good card advantage and as an aggro/tempo deck I feel like raw cards could be better than card selection. Having to attack first before casting it is not as big of a drawback as I first thought, as I am often not casting this spell until mid/late game (Swiftspear also tends to get outclassed at this point in the game), and it does synergize quite well with Pyromancer tokens, and even TNN.

@Fire // Ice: I really like the added flexibility of Fire//Ice, I was initially running a Forked Bolt which is still a fine card. Sure it's 2 mana vs 1, but it's also an instant. Ice has come in handy several times and is the reason I've switched Forked Bolt for this card. More often than not it is insurance against the many Lands players in my local meta, tapping a Marit Lage can at least buy a turn. Ice can also be used to tap a land, another big creature etc, and it also replaces itself in this mode.

Im testing right now this build:

4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide (!!!)
1 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
9 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

Runs pretty solid. In general I dont like accelerating my opponent with Goblin Guide, I think it makes our Control matchup a little worse, but its real fast and has potential to finish turn 3-4 consistently. So it kind of depends on the amount of removal they play. I keep testing.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Im testing right now this build:

4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide (!!!)
1 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
9 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

Runs pretty solid. In general I dont like accelerating my opponent with Goblin Guide, I think it makes our Control matchup a little worse, but its real fast and has potential to finish turn 3-4 consistently. So it kind of depends on the amount of removal they play. I keep testing.

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Cut the Stormchaser and Reveler for 2 Grim Lavamancer, and you should be good to go. List looks solid. 3 Price of Progress is one too many for my tastes, but can be devastating in the right metagame. I'd personally cut one for another Forked Bolt, but then again, I don't know exactly what the meta is going to look like either.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Im testing right now this build:

4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide (!!!)
1 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
9 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

Runs pretty solid. In general I dont like accelerating my opponent with Goblin Guide, I think it makes our Control matchup a little worse, but its real fast and has potential to finish turn 3-4 consistently. So it kind of depends on the amount of removal they play. I keep testing.

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The single Stormchaser Mage feels kinda weak and out of place in this deck, maybe a singleton Snapcaster Mage? Flashback PoP is really strong. I've also never been a fan of running more than 1 Fireblast, as drawing a 2nd copy feels bad. I'm interested to hear about your testing with 4 Volcanic Island's, I feel this could backfire with the increased amount of Wastelands that will be played now.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Im testing right now this build:

4 Delver
4 Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide (!!!)
1 Stormchaser Mage
1 Bedlam Reveler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Forked Bolt
3 Price of Progress
2 Fireblast
9 Fetchlands
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain

Runs pretty solid. In general I dont like accelerating my opponent with Goblin Guide, I think it makes our Control matchup a little worse, but its real fast and has potential to finish turn 3-4 consistently. So it kind of depends on the amount of removal they play. I keep testing.

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At SCG Con I played a deck similar to this (with the guides). Ended up going 6-0-2, but I did still have probe. I agree with the suggestion for lavamancers instead of stormchaser/reveler. This version is a lot like burn, but you don't auto-lose to combo decks.

I actually want to have another evasion creature AND at least 2 creatures which are not cmc1 against Chalice of the Void. Also with 10 Bolts I don't really think we need a Lavamancer in this build. 3 PoP are maybe to many, maybe an other Fire//Ice. The reason for the 4th Volcanic is simply that Probe let you ran a 56 cards deck so by playing a full 60 cards deck again I like the 4th Volcanic.

A UR list just placed top 32 in the first post banning Legacy Challenge. It looks fairly stock to what the old list use to be, with Probes being replaced by 1 land, 2 Preordain, and 1 Spell Pierce. I'm rather confused by the sideboard as I don't believe I've ever seen a full playset of Leylines before. Not sure if this was a hedge to a possible surge of Reanimator/Dredge now that DRS is gone? I'd maybe consider going down to 1 Reveler and adding a Lavamancer or a utility spell like Vapor Snag, Fire//Ice, Set Adrift (If you've every Set Adrift a big creature in response to a fetch land, it feels amazing :laugh:).

I'm still hesitant to running Goblin Guide, I don't know if the deck is fast enough to include it, it lines up poorly to Goyf, Goose, and Thalia too, at least Swift Spear can potentially trade or even win that fight.

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Originally Posted by coff33bit

A UR list just placed top 32 in the first post banning Legacy Challenge. It looks fairly stock to what the old list use to be, with Probes being replaced by 1 land, 2 Preordain, and 1 Spell Pierce. I'm rather confused by the sideboard as I don't believe I've ever seen a full playset of Leylines before. Not sure if this was a hedge to a possible surge of Reanimator/Dredge now that DRS is gone? I'd maybe consider going down to 1 Reveler and adding a Lavamancer or a utility spell like Vapor Snag, Fire//Ice, Set Adrift (If you've every Set Adrift a big creature in response to a fetch land, it feels amazing :laugh:).

I'm still hesitant to running Goblin Guide, I don't know if the deck is fast enough to include it, it lines up poorly to Goyf, Goose, and Thalia too, at least Swift Spear can potentially trade or even win that fight.

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Guide definitely needs to be ran in a shell focused on being as aggressive as possible. In a list with cards like Young Pyro, TNN, Reveler, Spell Pierce, etc... yeah, it's probably not going to work so well. In a list with extra burn spells? He's just as good as Swiftspear. Goyf isn't coming down out of burn range until turn 3, usually... and if they have to hold Goyf back so you don't swing with Guide, that should be fine if you have enough reach in your deck. Goose isn't growing to 3/3 until at least turn 4, which is mostly irrelevant. Thalia dies to every burn spell available and is especially susceptible to Forked Bolt, so that's not really relevant either... at least not from the perspective of Guide not being playable.

I know for a fact Guide works in my Sligh list, but I've never tried him in a list with additional cantrips and Force of Will, so maybe it won't work so well in a more traditional UR Delver shell... I don't know.

Let us know how it goes, IamHANDSOME.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I actually want to have another evasion creature AND at least 2 creatures which are not cmc1 against Chalice of the Void. Also with 10 Bolts I don't really think we need a Lavamancer in this build. 3 PoP are maybe to many, maybe an other Fire//Ice. The reason for the 4th Volcanic is simply that Probe let you ran a 56 cards deck so by playing a full 60 cards deck again I like the 4th Volcanic.

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Is TNN too slow as an evasion creature? You should be able to cast TNN at the same time or even before Reveler now that Probe is gone, and it's a great defensive and offensive threat.

I feel like TNN is definitely worth while if you're not going down the sligh route with Goblin Guide, etc.

It's kind of niche, but do we wanna be playing Electrickery now in the side now that your 1st turn threats to combat have changed from DRS at 2 toughness to lackey at 1?

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Originally Posted by structuremole

It's kind of niche, but do we wanna be playing Electrickery now in the side now that your 1st turn threats to combat have changed from DRS at 2 toughness to lackey at 1?

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Volcanic Spray. Although, sweepers seem mostly unecessary if you have a couple of Forked Bolt's and some Grim Lavamancer's.

This deck should be crushing Goblins, though.

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Originally Posted by coff33bit

(...)I'd maybe consider going down to 1 Reveler and adding a Lavamancer or a utility spell like Vapor Snag, Fire//Ice, Set Adrift (If you've every Set Adrift a big creature in response to a fetch land, it feels amazing [emoji23]).

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Set Adrift is a sorcery.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Set Adrift is a sorcery.

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Oops you are correct. For some reason I thought it was a Delve version of Submerge, which I run in my SB for that reason (and Marit Lage)

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Originally Posted by coff33bit

Oops you are correct. For some reason I thought it was a Delve version of Submerge, which I run in my SB for that reason (and Marit Lage)

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Alas, no; it is crap.

Hi guys,

I have played the deck the last 4 months with some success and now i'm trying to find a way to keep going well the UR delver deck.

I think there is 2 ways for the deck post ban:
-a very aggro version, close to IamHANDSOME's and Hanni's one with a 12 turn one creatures (delver/swift and soul-scare), 8 cantrips for prowess triggers, 8 counters and burns. I think this version is putting a lot of pressure and has a lot of reach with burn spells. However, we should be in a bad shape against combo match'up because we are "too slow" (kill T4) and we have only 8 counters and 0 disrupt. According to my experience, combo storm and S&T are very hard to catch with UR delver.
- an aggro control version, with a few wasteland and spell pierce. In my point of view, the deck should be inspire by the deck tempo zoo (RUG delver without denial). It runs a few wasteland, a lot of sheep beasts, a package of counter spells (daze/fow/pierce) and burns. It's much more balance between aggro and control, and there is still some reach. More over, we have got an advantage to be able to run a few basic lands for more stability.
How would you build such a version ?

Thx.

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Originally Posted by renard72

- an aggro control version, with a few wasteland and spell pierce. In my point of view, the deck should be inspire by the deck tempo zoo (RUG delver without denial). It runs a few wasteland, a lot of sheep beasts, a package of counter spells (daze/fow/pierce) and burns. It's much more balance between aggro and control, and there is still some reach. More over, we have got an advantage to be able to run a few basic lands for more stability.
How would you build such a version ?

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For that version I have been running the following:

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis

1 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Stifle

4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fire // Ice
2 Chart a Course
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Abrade
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Snare
1 Red Elemental Blase
1 Pyroblast
2 Price of Progress
1 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique

I'm still learning the ins and out of the deck but I feel it can be quite good. Yes it is slower than traditional UR but we have extra counter spells to handle Storm, which I have felt like is an okay matchup. I have been having really good games against RUG decks as I can pressure their lands better than they can mine, as I can run off basics only if needed with no real loss in velocity. Death and Taxes also feels favorable, especially post board when Vortex, Null Rod, and Abrade get to come in to replace some otherwise dead counter spells.

I played since the bannings really a lot of Magic with that deck and it seems to be very underrated. Ur Delver has practically except for Storm no real bad matchups. We are able to race almost any deck and our counter backup is practically just focusing on the most important cards in the format which is a good thing. I ran into a couple of control builds which played 8 removal+ which makes it very hard, also Miracles is a pain with 2 resolved Terminus. Chalice is traditionally a bad card for us, but the rest is very easy going. The bannings did not hurt us as hard as I assumed. A lot comes down to a 50:50 matchup preboard and postboard even a little favorable to Ur Delver. Against all the Chalice decks it practically comes down to countering it and maybe a Thrinisphere. Letting one of it resolves means GG most of the time, but except for these Swiftspear and Delver still hit hard, PoP can come for 4 or 6 and Ur Delver is in general a very very fast deck. Also I never lost to Sneak&Show with Ur Delver I think never (and I played against it at least 6-7 times in official tournaments), Lands are Turbo Depths could never did to us what they did to our ex brothers Grixis and Bug Delver and all of the Blade decks will not be as affective to us because of our high removal density and their slow approach of the game. The format just got a lot slower without Deathrite Shaman which seems to be very good for us. Goblins and D&T can be also very hard matchups but not bad ones, it comes more down to a resolved AEther Vial or how many Wastelands my opponent draw. Again the matchup is about certain cards being drawn than the whole matchup itself. I remember playing against all the Shaman decks, they practically had everything, any card was dangerous and affective to us. I didnt run into a lot of decks which had just really good cards and synergies against UR, it is right now really depending on very specific cards like Chalice, Thrinisphere, some Eldrazis, AEther Vial, Terminus and a handful of other very effective cards. The rest of the meta lost a lot of power in Shaman which glued the best cards together into one deck. Also Canadian Thresh is a deck which will win because of Stifle and Wasteland, without cutting us from mana we are faster on the board and on the stack with creatures and burn spells. So i feel very positive about Ur Delver and think it can have a little resurgence. It still will be definitely a meta call if youre gonna be succesfull with it. A lot of D&T, control builds with every removal in the world and Storm will be in general much worse matchups than a a diverse meta which can't deal with Delver, PoP and counter back up. So I dont see it as tier 1 next to Miracles, but slightly below because of its reach and potential to outrace and out Burn 90% of the decks.