4 Card Blind: The Silkster Seasons

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong

FoN was too strong, so I took Commandeer as a panic-button against noncreatures missed by Subtlety.
Teferi's Isle is too fast (Subtlety stalls Supercat one turn, making T3 Thoracle race on the play). It had to be turn 4 or turn 3 without disruption.

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle
Worst case I can Commandeer your Mox to draw.
If you tap out for T4 Oracle, I Subtlety it (stall one turn), then cast my Oracle while you're tapped out. So you can't ever cast Oracle. I charge to 100 counters.
Eventually I could EOT cast Subtlety, then hold up Commandeer mana while attacking with a 3/3 flyer. That wouldn't do me any good. Commandeer can't stop your Thassa or stop Angel's Grace on my Thassa, and I'd give up the Subtlety advantage. So I can't play anything either. DD 2-2

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad
If you play Show and Tell, Thoracle wins. If you don't, I win on turn 4. WW 6-0

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns
You play T3 Oko, I let it resolve, T4 Thassa wins. WW 6-0

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance
You've got Spell Snare for Thassa AND Sunlance for Lab Man! Nice deck.
If I don't cast Thassa into Spell Snare, you EOT grow Chrono. You can't Sunlance Subtlety (tapping out leaves you open to Thassa), but by the time I play Subtlety, Chrono is big enough to race.
LL 0-6

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
Worst case I can Commandeer Lotus to draw, but I don't.
If you use Lotus for Show and Tell, I let it resolve. If you put in Emrakul, Thassa's trigger wins. If you put in Hushbringer, Thassa's trigger is countered, then I play a 3/3 flyer and race you.
If you use Lotus for Hushbringer instead, I counter with Subtlety and T4 Thassa wins.
If you don't use Lotus, T4 Thassa wins.
WW 6-0

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless
Subtlety stalls Lackey one turn. Then T4 Thassa wins before Lackey + Morophon can race. WW 6-0

26 points (8 wins, 2 draws, 2 loss)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

I can, but then I'll lose later to the Subtlety, I think.

This is actually a question about "full information" that I tried asking many many seasons ago and I don't think I really got an answer. I think that the choices for S&T are made simultaneously, so how does one choose if there's no correct choice? If Emrakul loses to Oracle, Oracle loses to Hushbringer, Hushbringer loses to Subtlety, Subtlety loses to Emrakul, then there's no right choice. But Oracle still beats Hushbringer by casting Subtlety 6 turns later. Also, I think the answer to this question is that the NAP gets to know what the AP chooses for the purposes of 4CB.

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For Show and Tell, NAP is normally supposed to select without knowing what AP selected. But the issue of information is moot. I choose Oracle either way.

If you reveal Emrakul -> Oracle trigger wins
If you reveal Hushbringer -> Oracle trigger is countered, then I cast Subtlety later and race.

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower - WW - I would like to thank Spell Snare for doing its job.
dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn. Please do not play TOracle. - LL - I was not prepared for Show and Tell.
Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment: - LL
Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions - LL
GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2 - DD
FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong - WW - You made me work for the victory over Oracle, but I did it.

4w2d = 14 points

I beat Thassa's Oracle and lost to everything else expect Goblin Lackey for some reason. (I think we're going to be losing to Goblins, so that's nice at least.)

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 4: Turn 4?"

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
Thassa :( 0-6

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn.
Emrakul :( 0-6

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Oko :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Sunlance 2-2

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Emrakul :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
That's me still on Goblins :(

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong[/QUOTE]
Thassa :( 0-6

2 goblin points

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

GoblinSmashmaster Results for "Round 4: Turn 4?"

Reeplcheep: Mox Tantalite, Mana Confluence, Angel’s Grace, Thassa’s Oracle, comment: We must go even slower
Thassa :( 0-6

dte: Black lotus, Show and tell, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, Bazaar of Baghdad, comment: T1 emrakul can chumpblock the cat to live another turn.
Emrakul :( 0-6

Asthereal: Karakas, Simic Growth Chamber, Detention Sphere, Oko, Thief of Crowns, comment:
Oko :( 0-6

Wrath of Pie: Undiscovered Paradise, Chronomaton, Spell Snare, Sunlance, comment:
Sunlance 2-2

Silkster: Black Lotus, Show and Tell, Hushbringer, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, comment: too many wrong answers so it's time for questions
Emrakul :( 0-6

GoblinSmashmaster: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless, comment: Goblin smash -2
That's me still on Goblins :(

FTW: Saprazzan Cove, Thassa's Oracle, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: FoN too strong
Thassa :( 0-6

2 goblin points

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You should be happy, now everyone has to be smashed by Goblins.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

You should be happy, now everyone has to be smashed by Goblins.

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Though it does mean that two goblins are banned this round.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

Though it does mean that two goblins are banned this round.

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How do coin flips work?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

How do coin flips work?

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Owner gets the worst possible outcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Owner gets the worst possible outcome.

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Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?

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As I understand it, if there is randomness brought by a card you run, and as a result some paths, however unlikely, leads you to lose (the game, not flip), then you lose. If you can't lose but can draw, then you draw.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FTW

Hmm this raises some interesting questions:
- Owner or Controller?
- Lose the flip, or worst outcome?

This came up before with Mana Clash

If the deck is designed so you want the flips to lose, does that mean the flips win instead? Or does the owner/controller lose the flip either way?

If a spell or permanent you control creates a copy for the opponent, do you still own the copy? So opponent's flips would be whichever you don't want them to get?

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I think it's the controller. The player who would count as "you" in the text.

But this is a tad fluid in 4CB, as sometimes gaining the thing from the coin flip is actually to your disadvantage. Say you do a coin flip, and if it's heads you get a 2/2 bear. Normally you'd get tails and get nothing, but if your opponent has an Oath of Druids and a fatty in his library, and he needs you to have that bear in order to activate Oath, you actually do get the bear. In this case casting or activating the effect would be suboptimal play, so you don't actually play the effect that would get you a bear if you got heads in the coin toss, but the principle stands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster

How do coin flips work?

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The way I like to think about it is this: any time an effect player 1 controls causes a random result, player 2 gets to choose the outcome of those results.

If I cast Mana Clash or activate Goblin Bangchuckers, you choose every single result. If I Burning Inquiry, you choose which 3 cards you discard (which was relevant once). When I shuffle my library, you choose the order.

What gets a little complicated is if the controller and owner are different players. We had some debate here about a Donated Mana Crypt. I think I'd like to say (for simplicity) that all random results are chosen by the player who did not bring the card into the game. So in this case, donating a crypt does not kill the other player, even over infinite turns, despite it being a probability 0 event.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

What gets a little complicated is if the controller and owner are different players. We had some debate here about a Donated Mana Crypt. I think I'd like to say (for simplicity) that all random results are chosen by the player who did not bring the card into the game. So in this case, donating a crypt does not kill the other player, even over infinite turns, despite it being a probability 0 event.

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Is this the ruling we're going with for this season? Your season, your choice.

In other seasons, many players used Donate+Mana Crypt as a winning deck. I also attempted Sudden Substitution+Mana Clash before. If things like Donate+Crypt don't work this season, it'd be helpful to make that a clear rule before anyone submits. Especially since there are a lot of red coin-flip cards, some with "Goblin" in the name.

Yes, I'm going with that: The player who did not bring the card chooses all outcomes from random events generated by that card.

Ceiling deck for round 5: Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless

Note: I can't actually tell when MH3 becomes constructed legal, but scryfall is including them in searches for vintage legal cards, so I'm going to declare that MH3 is now legal in our game. This goes against previously stated rules, but I think it makes sense and won't be an unpopular decision.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

Yes, I'm going with that: The player who did not bring the card chooses all outcomes from random events generated by that card.

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:(

RIP Sandstone Needle, Krark, the Thumbless, Intervention Pact, Grapeshot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

Note: I can't actually tell when MH3 becomes constructed legal, but scryfall is including them in searches for vintage legal cards, so I'm going to declare that MH3 is now legal in our game. This goes against previously stated rules, but I think it makes sense and won't be an unpopular decision.

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Yeah they're kinda murky about that sometimes.
I'm playing a MH3 prerelease tomorrow, so allowing it from this round onwards makes sense.

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Checking entry legalities momentarily. No news will be good news.

Ceiling Season - Round 5 - Sacred Foundry, Goblin Lackey, Sunlance, Morophon, the Boundless

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast!
dte: Black lotus, Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25!
FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes
Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade
Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:
Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius
Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment:

GoblinSmashmaster: Black Lotus, Warren Instigator, Goblin Settler, Lightning Crafter, comment: Goblin Blast!
WW

dte: Black lotus, Black lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Elixir of Immortality, comment: 25!
WL

FTW: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Subtlety, Commandeer, comment: Broken record with subtle changes
LL - This is the one round that got away from me. Chaoslace does nothing here.

Reeplcheep: Black Lotus, Lab Maniac, Simian Spirit Guide, Pyroblast, comment: Dies to doom blade
WL - I was on this exact list for most of the week. I even got as far as typing it all in to the entry form.

Wrath of Pie: Strip Mine, Aether Vial, Meddling Mage, Vexing Bauble, comment:
WL

Silkster: Black Lotus, Laboratory Maniac, Black Lotus, Chaoslace, comment: fine line between stupid and genius
It would seem that I fell on the side of stupid.

Asthereal: Azorius Chancery, Wasteland, Hope-Ender Coatl, Dovin, Grand Arbiter, comment:
WW

7W, 5L.

I was worried about 3 cards: Force of Negation, Pyroblast, and Strafe. By moving Pyroblast -> Chaoslace, I was protected against Strafe, but no longer against Force of Negation. Adding the second Lotus protected against that, and I thought I was all good. I even figured I was protected against Subtlety too because I figured that any list running FoN+Subtlety is going to have a clock slower than turn 2. I'm still surprised that Strafe didn't show up.

Exactly the same as Silkster for me, except I LL against reeplcheep.

6W6L, 18.

I thought my deck was more original:/