[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by The Marco

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

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I'm actually surprised this wasn't modded for being a 1-Liner in the LMF that is very sarcastic and relatively pointless. TB has been playing this deck longer than most people have and knows how to modify a deck to beat what he needs to beat, ontop of probably just outplaying them anyways. As I have no idea who you are and didn't even realize you were a member here until today, what have you contributed to the format lately?

Terminate vs. Smother vs. Snuff Out vs. Your_Removal_spell_of_choice_01:
Personally I would play Smother for reasons of it being easier to cast, because you don't have to leave up 2 colored sources. Pro-Red can be a huge deal if you are running Terminate, but if you're running it knowing there is going to be a lot of Sword and Jitte weilding Silver Ka-Nig-Its, why the hell are you running Terminate? That whole thing should be a metagaming desicion. On a pure vs. the format level though, I don't see many reasons one would be better than the other. They're both pretty even in this format and basically up to your personal preference and metagaming desicions. Far as Snuff Out, it probably would work very well but, I'd actually like the option of being able to realistically hardcast my removal. I can't see many reasons why I'd pass a turn and leave 4 mana up.

That is typical of some of you veteran on the Source...because I don't have 1000 posts my points are not valid. Agreed that comment was sarcastic and pretty much pointless, but also taken out of context of the whole discussion. It seems that everytime someone has a decent idea and he's not from NY or does not have a 1000 posts, someone one just dismises it (look at the tone in his answers...and your ) with very little support other that this is a bad idea and here is an example of an atypical hand....you are right I don't have that much time to contribute to the format as a whole, I work, I'm finishing my Masters and training in MMA...But I found time to help build a decent player base here in Montréal, we have bi-weekly tournaments with an excess of 25 players every single time. To me that is much better then being the guy who said to play this card or this one in this deck (I do it only when I have time). By the way I don't know you either, so what does that prove...

Back to the discussion: I agree that the one you choose depens on your meta (I'll give you that), I believe that you have a valid point in saying that they are pretty much even. I guess it depends on the deck (composition as it seems that there are many different lists of goblins these days) you are running. In a extensive mana denial land structure I could see Smother as being easier to cast consistently... is this a tradeoff you are whiling to accept (less consistency)for the added versatility of Terminate. In large tournaments I usually favor versatility if only for the reason of randomness in many decks. If you play a local tournamnet with only very knowledgeable people who all play tier 1 or 1.5 decks I could see you wanting more consistency.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

Back to the discussion: I agree that the one you choose depens on your meta (I'll give you that), I believe that you have a valid point in saying that they are pretty much even. I guess it depends on the deck (composition as it seems that there are many different lists of goblins these days) you are running. In a extensive mana denial land structure I could see Smother as being easier to cast consistently... is this a tradeoff you are whiling to accept (less consistency)for the added versatility of Terminate. In large tournaments I usually favor versatility if only for the reason of randomness in many decks. If you play a local tournamnet with only very knowledgeable people who all play tier 1 or 1.5 decks I could see you wanting more consistency.

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Versatility is great and I agree that in a large tournament with relatively unknown quantities of randomness, Terminate would likely be a superior option if only for the "Oh Shit" button to axe some really troublesome large creatures in Exalted Angels, Magus of the Tabernacle, Pit Dragons, or BigGreen style critters, as you could usually expect coffee table players to bring their decks. But in most tighter tournies that I know I can expect lots of players bringing the tier 1 or 1.5, I want a card that will be easy and reliable for casting that will kill what I need it to kill: Goyf, Silver Knight, Confidant, etc.. Smother does that. Terminate does too, but I like that Smother is a bit more reliable when it counts.

I guess we agree on that! In an unknown meta maybee the right call would be to play a split of 2 Terminate and 2 Smother instead of 4 of either in the side!

actually the problem with terminate is as the others have mentioned consistency, even with fetches and duals sometimes RB cost is to much, if your really afraid of big fatties terror would be even better to some extent or snuff out. Otherwise gempalm incinerator ussually does the job. This is also one reason I like goblins splash white because STP is the far superior removal spell to all. Only problem I have with white splash is the active Jitte, which green splash is best suited for.

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Originally Posted by The Marco

OK kid keep playing your three color built with no port, and while your at it why not splash blue and cut wasteland...that way you have an answer to everything....

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You really need to take a little breather and watch who you are talking about. I don't know anyone that has played Goblins more than Tenniebopper in this area. I've also played the deck quite a bit, so when Tenniebopper has something to say about the deck, a lot of people just shut up and listen.

The version of the deck that I've run is with 23 lands which includes 4 wastelands and 3 ports. I do not run terminate in the board b/c of the double color mana requirement, this is why smother is superior in the version that I run.

I play splashes of both black and green b/c it gives you tin street main deck and krosan grip in the board in addition to therapies, smother, and thoughtseize if you choose to have that.

I can see cutting port in the main deck if you decide to play more color cards in the main deck, such as smother or therapy. Also, trimming the land count down to 22 sources.

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Originally Posted by erhnamdjinn

actually the problem with terminate is as the others have mentioned consistency, even with fetches and duals sometimes RB cost is to much, if your really afraid of big fatties terror would be even better to some extent or snuff out. Otherwise gempalm incinerator ussually does the job. This is also one reason I like goblins splash white because STP is the far superior removal spell to all. Only problem I have with white splash is the active Jitte, which green splash is best suited for.

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Yeah, active Jitte is close to GG against white splash. That said, I SB Disenchants so it's manageable G2 and 3, though still crappy against decks running countermagic, like Fish and Faerie Stompy. Nonetheless, I think the benefits to being able to play StP outweigh those of being able to play Tin-Street and Krosan Grip.
I do see the problem with Terminate and Smother is probably better, however, I'd actually test snuff out. God knows I don't want to tap out on turn 3 to kill Tarmogoyf. It'd be nice to just be able to kill it, and keep going. But the life loss could be too heavy.

I think I like the suggestion about EE better than Smother or Terminate. I'll be playtesting that.

Since we're on the subject of colorless mana sources though, what do you guys think about some players running Ancient Tomb to support the higher casting cost of Bogart Mob and Wort? I tried playtesting it the other day and I ended up tapping it 5 freaking times.

EDIT: For the mathematically challenged, that's 10 freaking damage (half of my life total).

re: Bogart Mob sucks.

A singleton/double Wort is fairly easy to support, usually only cutting a SGC. Ancient Tomb really isn't worth it for that.

I have been thinking about a Goblins list with nothing but really high CC goblins (Goon, SGC, Wort, maybe Patron of the Akki), but then I ask myself "why wouldn't I just play Dragon Stompy?"

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Originally Posted by Drow Slayer

I think I like the suggestion about EE better than Smother or Terminate. I'll be playtesting that.

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Are you shitting me? EE = 1-2 Mana to play, 2 to activate, may kill your guys. Sure, it's mass removal. That's rarely relevant, though. Dies to pithing needle.
Smother/Terminate = Targeted Removal that is efficient and kills Goyf.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

re: Bogart Mob sucks.

A singleton/double Wort is fairly easy to support, usually only cutting a SGC. Ancient Tomb really isn't worth it for that.

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I think I agree on the Ancient Tomb after seeing it in action during playtesting. I was just wondering why people were running it. With regards to the Bogart Mob, you really don't like it? I find that it's actually bigger than goofy in the Survival matchup (they can't get enough in the yard).

Has anyone tested Smother main?

Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD. Its a 3/3 with fear! I really like the list that Jeff did well at the ML3 with the (BG splash), but I was wondering if anyone has tried the BW splash?

Basically running 1 Mirror entity instead of the tin-street MD. With some number of Swords, Chants, and such in the SB.

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Originally Posted by Happy Gilmore

Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD. Its a 3/3 with fear! I really like the list that Jeff did well at the ML3 with the (BG splash), but I was wondering if anyone has tried the BW splash?

Basically running 1 Mirror entity instead of the tin-street MD. With some number of Swords, Chants, and such in the SB.

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I've done the BW splash but the list wasn't entirely optimal. Duress + Thoughtseize in the SB, Crib Swap MD. We didn't have any other splash cards on us, but it worked fine. I went 2-2.

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Happy said:
Mob was so awful every time I tested it. But Wort on the other hand was so good I decided to up the number to 2 MD.

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Just concluded the same thing after testing.

I don't have an opinion yet on M. Entity other than the idea intrigues me.

Someone suggested Bathe in Light to me yesterday. Seems like a nice SB card vs. Pyroclasm; it can also permit you to go for the killer attack pretty quickly.

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Mental said:
I've done the BW splash but the list wasn't entirely optimal. Duress + Thoughtseize in the SB, Crib Swap MD.

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Did you like Crib Swap ? On paper it looked good (fetching it with Matron and putting it in your hand with Ringleard), but when I tested it I really disliked it. The casting cost made it a bit slow and countertempoish when I wanted to play it early game and when facing mana denial it was simply annoying. I'd rather keep an uncracked fetch (against LD) and just crack it for Plateau and StoP my target, this while being able to do other stuff during the turn.


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Nickrit2000 said:
You really need to take a little breather and watch who you are talking about. I don't know anyone that has played Goblins more than Tenniebopper in this area. I've also played the deck quite a bit, so when Tenniebopper has something to say about the deck, a lot of people just shut up and listen.

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Nickrit, sorry but when I read this I just had to answer. I'm not saying TheMarco didn't get a bit carried away, but everything in the paragraph you posted can be reversed to target you. You don't know who you're talking to and you also need to take a breather ("a lot of people just shut up and listen" "and watch who you are talking about"). I really dislike intimidation and that seemed like a failed attempt at it (no disrespect to you or Teeniebopper intended).

I really like the idea of Mirror entity even if no testing has been done up to this point with it. I like most how it effects the board imediately rather than the following turn regardless if warchief is in play. You can vial him in and turn every creature played so far into a 4/4 on turn 4. It allows you to trade only one of your creatures for a Tarmogoyf when you double block, and you only need 5 mana and 4 creatures to do 20 damage. Plus you can always bring him back with Wort. I also really like Crib Swap.

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Originally Posted by Mental

Are you shitting me? EE = 1-2 Mana to play, 2 to activate, may kill your guys. Sure, it's mass removal. That's rarely relevant, though. Dies to pithing needle.
Smother/Terminate = Targeted Removal that is efficient and kills Goyf.

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Sure, it kills (some of) your dudes, but it also kills EtW tokens, Pithing Needle on Vials (or sharpshooters, or fanatics), CoP:Red, 'goyf, Survival, Jitte, Engineered Plague, etc, all in one card. I'm not saying that I'm going to run it, I'm just saying it kills all the same things Smother and Terminate do, plus stuff.

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Has anyone tested Smother main?

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I did. I wasn't really impressed or unimpressed with it. It was just there. It was nice to have a real answer to 'goyf in game one, but then again, it really lowered my goblins count (to sub 30, which is rough). If you're in an environment where you absolutely must have it, it's fine. Otherwise, I'd just bring it in from the board. IMO, I'd rather have therapy or thoughtseize main over smother, though.

I'm not sure I like Crib Swap. I mean, a fetchable StP sounds cool and all... except for the fact that it isn't StP. Vialing out a Ringleader, flipping Crib Swap and killing a dude does sound awfully sexy, though.

I'm with aTn on Mirron Entity. It does sound intriguing. Too bad it's white :-/

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

EE kills Pithing Needle on Vials or fanatics

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It kills your fanatics and vials too :)

/shrug

If you actually play out multiple copies of Vial against a Needle naming them, and the opposing deck isn't some sort of Tangle Wire/Smokestack concoction, then you deserve to lose your own Vials.

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Originally Posted by TeenieBopper

If you actually play out multiple copies of Vial against a Needle naming them, and the opposing deck isn't some sort of Tangle Wire/Smokestack concoction, then you deserve to lose your own Vials.

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So, you're playing vial on turn 1, the opponent plays Needle. You play EE on turn 2, strip it on turn 3 and play a new vial on turn 3 (at best)
Well, playing vial on turn 3 after you did nothing that affects the game on turn 2 and 3 doesn't seem a good way to get an edge with an aggro deck...

Jeff's list from TMLO 3 had two Wort and three SGCs in the main. It seems a little top-heavy, but he did extremely well with it. Note that he played 4 Leyline of the Void in the sideboard (over crypt).