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Yeah, nothing says "class" like being a pot-bellied frat boy lying in a pool of his own vomit, Bud Lite and STD-soiled linen.
I'm sorry, let me translate that into a more appropros vernacular.
WHOOOT! CHUG! WHOOO!!11 WAZAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap?
PS: Show me your boobies.
On a less serious note, cantrips seem terrible, since the eliminate Belcher's biggest strength; being able to look at your hand and knowing if you're going to go off or not.
Well, belcher is a deck based on math. The purpose in building the deck is to have the highest probability of hitting the combo + the right amount of mana in your opening grip. So, if you don't want take math into account you'll be probably better with another deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by RockOfTheFormat
Also. Stop flaming please.
EDIT: oh, and next time you should try to explain your thoughts too. It really works when you're communicating wit other persons.
Agreed, but with SoTV you run a 1/7 that you will kill yourself at best, so I preffer not to use it. Adding a cantrip or 2 in the form of Manamorphose is not always bad, because you can LG and then still have random rips off the top.
Just a question... Is there really a need to stock up the SB with silver bullets? I mean, most of the time you're Wishing for EtW anyway. Maybe a couple wouldn't hurt, but loading it with cards which you probably won't be able to cast or have the time to do so seems a bit off.
For example, this is my SB (RG build):
4 Shattering Spree
4 Pyroblast
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Pyroclasm
1 Hull Breach
Any pros and cons in running an actual SB over a typical Wish board?
YES, finally discussion about this deck that I want to partake in. OK, this sideboard pertains ONLY to decks that run Bayou and Dark Rituals/Cabal Rituals in them. This SB has worked for me in the past and I think I have posted it before but I really don't want to look back in the thread. Here is the SB I run for Belcher:Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
4x Tombstalker
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
Those wish targets are the cards that I think have to be in the deck with the exception of DReturns. Returns was won me a lot of games with no hand, I see why people don't run it because you have to have LED in play but I personally love having the card. Pyroclasm has to be there as well because it can help you out of a lot of tight jams and also in the combo mirror if your opponent is dumb enough to go for the EtW kill .... you have a good answer if need be. Reverent Silence can be Simplify but I just prefer Silence cause it's free and that 6 life is generally not an issue.
For the good stuff. IMOP the Red Blast plan has never been effective against control otherwise this deck would be more widely played. I hate the Blast plan and have never won more than 2 matches running it. Discard is just better IMOP. I ran a similar SB in SI and while SI is a totally different deck they are both insanely fast combo decks and I decided to try the SB out in Belcher. To my suprise it worked wonders and I kept using it and it is a LOT more effective against control. Here is how I boarded with this deck against Counter-control/Stiflestuff.dec:
-4 Burning Wish
-4 LED
-2 Seething Song
-1 Tinder Wall
+4 Tombstalker
+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize
+1 Empty the Warrens
I realize that this is a radical plan but it maximizes your chances of having a good early game plan as well as a decent late game plan against countertrash.dec. I decided to cut Burning Wish cause all it does is draw counters and LED is next to useless with this plan and the other 3x are up to you, I usually take out Seeting Song cause it gets me in the greatest troubles if its countered however it is nice having 2 if need be and the other card could be whatever but since Tinder Wall has the least boost with worst casting cost I cut 1. I love this SB and would recommend to anyone to test it out. It works quite well. Thoughts?
Also, a big thank you to Peter Rotten for banning RockOfTheFormat.
In all honesty, my testing has shown that a SB with Wish targets comes in handy...some of the times. It's happened enough that I needed a Goblin War Strike or a Shattering Spree or a Diminishing Returns, to warrant the board spaces...although many times it can be overkill (ie. going for Tendrils kill). Most of the time, however, nothing will stop you from a swift victory. If you need to wish for something to remove an obstacle, chances are you're already fighting a downhill battle.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
I'm still up in the air about it.
Sorry for double post, but this one is a completely different topic:
I've been wanting to update my list (I've been out of the Legacy loop for a few months), and upon my return I was pretty surprised at the new lists. I'll go ahead and copypaste some of them here, but here are some things I've noticed:
- Infernal Tutor (and Spoils): are seeing lots of play. I don't know what incited this, but you can't really argue against its inclusion either. I've tested this card before (Infernal Tutor), and the only thing I can say is that it's solid, but there are a lot of times where you want it to be the last card in your hand but you've got like two win conditions or something and can't make the best of it. Otherwise, it's still great in the deck.
- Xantid Swarm in SB: seems to have taken a staple slot in sideboards. In retrospect, Swarm is a great answer to blue-based decks that I've overlooked. I whole-heartedly agree with its inclusion.
- Manamorphose debate (aka what card is less shitty): people are making weird cuts and additions between Manamorphose, Wild Cantor, Desperate Ritual, Street Wraith, and Seething Song. I always thought that you'd want Desperate Ritual for the +1 spell (isn't that the point of the deck?), but our top 8 Gencon list cut Desperate Ritual in favor of Manamorphose as well as Infernal Tutor over Wild Cantor. Greedy plays!
The more I goldfish the deck and the more I playtest it against various decks, the more I can find case and argue for every single card that's been mentioned in here. It really all depends on the situation at hand and how good your draws are. As far as goldfishing goes, no particular deck ever comes out on top (although I've had a share of Bayou flops with R/G/B - though the Dark Ritual has made some explosive turn 1s that RG can't always make), which leads me to believe that everything branching out from the core of the deck becomes absolute preference. Optimizing the list means running all the important stuff, and everything beyond that point is up to what you're more comfortable with, how risky you want to play, and what your metagame is like. The variety in these placing belcher lists is testament. It's more about knowing your odds, matchups, math, and having those lucky draws than it is your decklist imo - because every list is viable; it's just mana, kill, and ways to find mana and kill lol.
#Belcher
#Matthew Elias
#Gencon Legacy 2008
#3rd Place
#notes: runs Infernal Tutor, Manamorphose, and 1 Plunge. Xantid Swarm in the board.
Mainboard:
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
3 Manamorphose
4 Lotus Petal
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Dark Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
1 Plunge into Darkness
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Cave-In
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
1 Thoughtseize
4 Xantid Swarm
#Ritual Belcher
#Tobias Demmer
#Isherlohn Legacy 07/08/08
#4th place of 56
#notes: this is Nightmare's list with Cantor/Manamorphose sans Seething Song. I like this list a lot, since it only runs 1 Taiga (maximizing belcher) and is still able to support Dark Ritual. However, the deck also lacks the punch without Cabal Ritual or Seething Song.
Mainboard:
1 Taiga
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wild Cantor
4 Tinder Wall
4 Land Grant
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Charbelcher
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Shattering Spree
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Cave-In
1 Pyroclasm
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Simplify
1 Goblin War Strike
#Dark Belcher
#Christian Freiberger
#Legacy Manheim 06/08
#1st place of 21
#notes: Listed for emphasis on use of Infernal Tutor and Xantid Swarm.
Mainboard:
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Chrome Mox
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
Sideboard:
1 Duress
1 Cave-In
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Infernal Tutor
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Shattering Spree
4 Xantid Swarm
#RG Belcher
#Nagamune Masaki
#Ancient Memory Convention 35th
#4th place of 53
#notes: okay it's a Japanese list. This guy had 4 blue decks and a discard deck in the top 8...hence the warped list haha.
Mainboard:
2 Taiga
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Land Grant
4 Seething Song
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Defense Grid
4 Desperate Ritual
Sideboard:
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Goblin Welder
3 Shattering Spree
1 Simplify
2 Pyroclasm
1 Goblin Grenade
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Duress
3 Pithing Needle
#Dark Belcher
#Georg Seydel
#Iserlohn Legacy June 2008
#2nd place of 69 (lost to Faeries)
#note: /salute pulp_fiction. This list is proof that Spoils still works. But then again, he's so oldschool he even puts one Rite in his board which has been pretty meh for me in previous testing.
Mainboard:
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
4 Tinder Wall
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Rite of Flame
3 Empty the Warrens
4 Burning Wish
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Seething Song
4 Land Grant
Sideboard:
1 Rite of Flame
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Thoughtseize
1 Rough / Tumble
1 Deathmark
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
#Dark Belcher
#Michael Keller
#Hadley March 2008
#2nd place of 40
#notes: our very own A_Legend. Same freakin list he's been running since the stone age. Theory? Why change something that ain't broke.
Mainboard:
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Burning Wish
4 Tinder Wall
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Wild Cantor
4 Seething Song
4 Land Grant
3 Empty the Warrens
3 Chrome Mox
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
2 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Deathmark
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Goblin War Strike
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Pyroclasm
1 Reverent Silence
1 Shattering Spree
Cabal Therapy may have a place in the board for the /b builds. Especially when going for the EtW kill, it may be usefull to strip two cards that want to kill your horde of dudes.
Cabal Therapy is just alright. Generally against something where Cabal Therapy would be played after you have resolved EtW you are most likely going to win anyway. It would be nice to make a bunch of dudes them flashback Therapy naming EE or Pyroslasm, Echoing Truth, etc. but generally it isn't needed. It is the nature of running a combo deck, you don't play defensive cards because you should not play defense in a combo deck, its all about offense and winning the game as fast as you can.
I wanted Manamorphose to work so bad but it just can't. It may work for some people but to me it adds to many inconsistencies to the deck. I was testing it and it seemed like every time I was counting my mana I was 1x short and if Manamorphose was DRitual, CRitual, Tinder Wall, etc I would win that turn. And there will be times when casting Manamorphose when you need a mana source that you draw a win con off of it and thus can't combo. Manamorphose adds to many "ifs" to the deck and it also really sucks in any opening hand after you mulligan to 6 or lower. If you can make it work, go for it, but I just think the card is terrible in the deck.
As far as Spoils of the Vault goes, I am glad it is starting to catch on. It is a fantastic card and works well in Belcher, just imagine how good Belcher would be if Demonic Consultation was legal!!! This is like that except that it kills you on occassion. I used to play a lot of storm combo (then Thresh began to dominate my meta) and I have no idea why Infernal Tutor would be played in Belcher. I would rather run Plunge into Darkness personally but Infernal Tutor just seems to put more emphasis and reliance on LED. Although I love those hands where you go all-in with BWish on the stack busting LED but on the other side LED isn't needed to power out BWish just seething song and a RoF or something. Infernal Tutor adds a whole other complication to the deck that I personally think it doesn't need, it is a terrible tutor and for a deck like Belcher and I think it wastes to many resources. Especially because there are times in Belcher when you can't empty out you hand thus making Infernal even worse. If it works ... play it, but I think Infernal Tutor just adds to many problems to a deck that functions just fine.
I'm going to have to agree with you on some points regarding Infernal Tutor. A lot of times it doesn't really help my hand at all. The main synergy is obviously with LED, and as often as that happens (which is more than you may think), it's more often in the "meh" section rather than "omg that Infernal Tutor just won me the game!". There are very specific situations where Infernal Tutor is amazing, and more situations where it is less than mediocre.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
As for Spoils: I don't know if the deck necessarily *needs* the card more than it *wants* it. The random deaths are what has steered me away from the card, and don't get me wrong, testing has shown that I don't die often from it, but I have and there still is that chance of happening at a more important time. Still, I can't argue that the card is very, very strong when it does work (and much more flexible than Infernal Tutor).
Now that i have all the cards i need to build this deck, i need to figure out the list i should use.
In putting together a list, i came upon a question i hope you guys can answer for me. I'm sorry if its already in this thread somewhere, i tried finding it, but as you can immagine searching one "lion's eye diamond" in this thread pulls up prety much every list.
Why does everyone play Lion's Eye as a 4 of, even in decks without black tutors.
As far as i can tell, the only time it actualy works is if you have either a charbelcher (use diamond to activate) or a burning wish (actiave in response to wish).
In all other cases, your Lion's eye, is just a +1storm count. You cant use it because it would dump your whole hand and you've got no use for the mana.
So why run a 4 of that is only usable if you have one of 8 cards in your hand also. I would think that in this case, cutting a or two diamond for another tutor (infernal probably) would make for atleast a more likely use for the diamond, and less likely that you end up with a diamond you cant use.
Or am i just completely missing something here?
Also, i'm going to try goldfishing a few different variants of this deck (have a lot of time on the train to kill), and would like to know about what sort of goldfish is a "good one". Meaning should i be counting only the number of turn 1 wins (including 10+tokens?) or are turn 2 wins still wins? From a goldfish perspective, what are the general benchmarks for a good build vs something that is worse then average.
-Lion's Eye Diamond: notice how you just listed 8 of your 11 win conditions that would work great with LED. Remember that the deck is just mana and kill, and LED does what it does best in here. I am almost never sad to see it in my hand. If you don't see its power, you have to look at it from a different perspective. Produce 4 mana, drop a belcher, and you won't have to worry about producing the extra 3 for the activation because LED handles it. Produce 3 mana, play Burning Wish, and crack that LED in response for the warrens. It's like cheating. Any other black tutors just make the card even more absurd.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoddyVR
-As for goldfishing, anything that leads to a turn 1 or 2 kill is generally considered good. Also, it would be a good idea to keep count of mulligans and how they affect your win ratio. Learning what hands to keep goes a long way with this deck. Once you've goldfished the deck enough you'll begin to recognize a functioning versus non-functioning hand with a mere glance. You'll visualize most spells as +1 mana, +2 mana, and win condition - it's just simple math from there.
-I don't think there's any perfect OPTIMAL build, but if you want the most optimal goldfishing (ie you're never, ever going to face against any sort of disruption or hinderance to your game plan), I'd say a variant packing the most punch (meaning you're including Seething Song and probably Dark Ritual) to improve your chances of going off turn 1. Others may argue that 1 Taiga builds prove more consistency on the belcher part of the deck, while others observe that having both Taiga and Bayou helps the deck in games where you don't instantaneously win. Either way, having 2 lands hurts your chances to win with the deck, as does using tutors like Spoils of the Vault. It all depends how risky you want to play, because cards like Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault are both powerful, but they come with a price.
I'd suggest a SB with 4 Blood Moon and 4 Magus of the Moon, game 2 when the opponent mulligans into Force of Will, he'll counter the acceleration and you'll go into a top deck war, at which point having 3cc, non-Storm "threats" lets you really pressure him.
Just dropping a Blood Moon is GG so often, and they can't afford to keep hands on Stifle for game 3, so it's a really effective strategy.
I've played for a while and still can't decide - the awesomeness of Ritual and Spoils or the suckyness of flipping a Bayou.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
I'm still not sure either. For the most part, I don't flip Bayou...but it happens often enough that it might become troublesome. I'm currently running the Manamorphose version with a single Taiga and 8 ways to generate black. It's okay, but as other people have complained, sometimes you're short a +1 for the kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by caiomarcos
@BreathWeapon
Who were you addressing? lol. The Magus build is kinda old, though I'm not sure why he got dropped cause moon effects are owning with Dragon Stompy.
Just a random thought addressing the SB, I've been running Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon in either the MD or the SB for awhile now and having good results, and I was curious what other people thought about an "8 Moon Plan" instead of an "8 Blast Plan."
Thinking of it right now, both builds probably give you the same amount of win/lose situations. The black build wins on the back of Ritual and tutors, and lose with the extremely disappointing Bayou on Belcher. The 1 Land build wins more often on Belcher but might have losing hands that could be winning ones if Rituals and such were on deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yesmilord
If that's is true (and it seems to be, because this discussion is going on for such a long time and no real veredict is out), I rather not lose to a Bayou, because it pisses me off big time.
So, for now, no Bayou, thanks.
I tried 1 land Belcher but I hated not having the second land in the deck. I have play the R/G versions and just totally hate the builds. I tried 1 land RGb with Manamorphose and hated that even more. Manamorphose just really sucks in the deck, because it doesn't add mana and its cantrip effect will occassionally cantrip into yet another wincon keeping you from getting to mana # 4. Manamorphose just adds to many ifs to the deck. As far as Bayou goes, you don't flip it that much and when you cast Land grant just fetch it everytime and drop Tinder Wall :) I know its not that simple but just go for Bayou nearly everytime you cast LG. I have found while playing 1 land Belcher I usually draw my 1x land and LG or double LG which is just to pointless. So for now I will keep Bayou in, it is also very nice to have land #2 against Stompy variants or Stax.
Is the general consensus that Living Wish and Goblin Welders are no longer good tech for the deck? The last truly competitive list I saw ran both, which is why it was competitive actually.
I believe welder depends on your meta. The Japanese still run him almost religiously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rush
Also, where did you find that list? I don't think any lists from this summer's tournaments had Living Wish.