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Seconded. This looks strange when you play a list without DD.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
ANT should be the last deck that has to worry about sideboard slots, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
The sideboard is at least for my part never something I have to worry about.
That's certainly no argument.
I have no problem running 2 Chrome Moxes instead of 3, but I probably wouldn't have a problem running 3 either. I actually don't like seeing Chrome Mox in my opening hand very much. I'd rather have a land. The only time Chrome Mox is strictly better is during an Ad Nauseam. If this deck was more aggressive and tried to win on turn 1-2 every game, then the Chrome Mox count would probably go up.Quote:
Originally Posted by CUB3X
In my opinion, Krosan Grip is the only required card for an ANT sideboard. I've tried playing the deck without it, and it straight up sucks. Krosan Grip is superior to Wipe Away because a lot of times you want to kill their Counterbalance NOT on the turn before you go off. If your hand isn't quite ready yet, you will still want to be able to resolve Brainstorm and Ponder, and having a CB sitting on the board is not an option.
I'm taking this list to my local legacy tournament on Sunday, I haven't set up a sideboard yet. My meta is a Survival Deck, Boros Wins w/ Iso Chant, Progenitus Threshold w/ Countertop, BW Poxless Box, Landstill, and some other jank decks. What would you guys recommend for sb.
Main Deck
Instants
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Brainstorm
4 Mystical Tutor
4 Silence
1 Wipe Away
1 Ad Nauseam
Sorcery
3 Ponder
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Duress
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Artifacts
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
Land
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Island
Probably some grips and bounce. Maybe an extra Ad Nauseum against black decks (it's instant, by the way). Perhaps Dark Confidant.
A secondary win condition might not be a horrible idea, or another tendrils.
Against which decks do you side in Doomsday with the pulpfiction-hybrid and what´s going out? I usually take the AN Package(1 AN, 2 Mox, 1 Ponder) out, but what´s next to go out if you want to keep the Chants? Need Answer till tonight ;)
As far as another win condition, what would it come in against, black discard? And I'm assuming the Confidants come in against that too?Quote:
Originally Posted by GUnit
I also wanted to hear people's opinions on SDT. I haven't tested it but I would like to hear opinions. If I ran it, it would replace Ponder. Is it worth it or is Ponder better?
SDT is required if you're running Doomsday as well. If you're going straight up Ad Nauseam, you should max out Brainstorm and Ponder first before fitting in SDT's.
I don't see the benefit of taking anything out for SDTs besides Ponders. Everything else seems essential. Also curious to sideboard strategies for the top decks.
Why are people playing Doomsday?
The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."
In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.
Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.
I play Kim's list however, I play 4 Cabal Rituals and 3 Infernals over her 3 Cabals and 4 Infernals. I also maindeck a Wipe Away over a Ponder just to have an outs game 1 in case something comes down. I like the list a lot. It works really well for me. I need the wipe away main deck because I have a counter top deck in my local meta.
Kim is a guy ;) How´s the Tempo MU with his list?
i would like to know how you side kim's list
And you know this from testing? Let me help you out with the answer: no, you don't. Do you even understand the Doomsday piles and where to apply them?Quote:
The deck already has enough ways to generate lethal storm. Another way is simply not necessary, and lists with Doomsday just scream "beware the danger of cool things."
In practice, adding Doomsday creates more problems than it solves. It dilutes the focus of the deck, it forces the use of sub-optimal cards, and it adds more instability to the deck.
We play Doomsday because it solves things that Infernal Tutor->IGG and Ad Nauseam don't already solve.
Issues with tempo decks like Merfolk where, due to their lack of sideboard hate against you, you often face down permission, a quick clock, and graveyard hate. Issues against
Counterbalance decks where anytime a Counterbalance lands, enough time is spent finding a solution to it that Ad Nauseam is worthless and Infernal Tutor->IGG requires one more protection and more mana than either Ad Nauseam or Doomsday.
Situations where we only have one actual Ritual effect complemented by Lion's Eye Diamond. These happen...a lot and really suck if you're playing a list without SDT or without Doomsday because you're left wishing the M10 rules didn't neuter Mystical/LED for you.
Doomsday makes the deck far less one dimensional for 2 slots, both of which are amazing against your worst matchups. It lets the deck ahead as ANT or carefully sculpt a winning without reliance on its life total or the graveyard, unaffected by most hate bears as well.
Mind sharing how you solved the Counterbalance problem without Doomsday? How about Merfolk? Tempo Thresh? How about when fast aggro boards in TCrypts or Relics because they have nothing else? They can put you on a decent clock (by turn 3 Ad Nauseam is worse than useless) and because they have no real combo hate, they take out your backup option. This happens a ton in tournament play because Storm doesn't have a high enough metagame share to make it worthwhile for most players who are already doing 40-60 or worse.Quote:
Kim Kluck's list is fantastic. Not only does it have a good deal of speed, but it is also resilient, flexible, and consistent. Any problem that Doomsday "solves" can be made up for with other options.
I can't speak to what is "better", and neither can anybody else unless they actually have empirical data to show. I can say that I personally prefer a build without Doomsday. I've tested it, and I just prefer to go without it. It's not an easier or harder way to win, it's just different. As emidln correctly points out, it gets around some of the potential pitfalls of IGG or AdN. But as Rico Suave points out (in ironically non-smooth fashion) it makes the deck slightly less predictable. Back when Spanish Inquisition was a viable deck, we had a similar argument about including Belcher. It's pretty much the same debate.
Your bias towards Doomsday has led you to false conclusions. You say Doomsday takes up 2 slots, but this is wrong. SDT is a great card but it is not worth maindecking without Doomsday. As such Doomsday leads you to at least 6 maindeck cards that are sub-optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?
If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.
It seems that a lot of lists on deckcheck.net disagree that SDT isn't worth maindecking without Doomsday. In fact, it appears to be a very common 2-3of in lists found on the first page of the ANT category on deckcheck.net. In the first 30 lists as of today, 12/11/2009, a full 20 of them play 1 or more SDT in the maindeck with 19 playing 2 or more. Strangely, only 7 of the first 30 lists played any number of Doomsday in the main of sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.Quote:
SDT slows you down, and then you go on to complain that you have trouble with creatures. You run less disruption slots than Kim Kluck's list, then you go on to complain you have trouble with light permission. Why am I not surprised?
Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.
Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)Quote:
If you want a tool against Counterbalance, look at Kim Kluck's SB. Dark Confidant is a beating in that match. Dark Confidant is a great 1st or 2nd turn play that will lead you to victory. The cool part is that not only does it dig for answers to CB, and not only does it load your hand with business and disruption to overwhelm counters, but it makes another option viable - the ability to swing and slow roll your opponent so that you can simply cast a 5-7 storm Tendrils the old fashioned way.
The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.
The lack of Doomsday is not strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by emidln
Like I said, SDT is certainly a great card. It's not a surprise that people run it. However it is worse than Brainstorm and Ponder in a Tendrils deck. As such, some people may find room for 2 or so which is understandable but 4 is way too much search that the deck simply does not need. You end up searching for search, which is pointless.
No, you confuse the use of extra mana with the use of Doomsday. These are not somehow interrelated, they are exclusive.Quote:
Doomsday lists actually have no issue with a fast clock, light permission, and graveyard hate. It would be the standard ANT lists that have these issues. Doomsday fixes these problems and provides a very positive Merfolk matchup.
Further, extra disruption doesn't actually solve the issues that tempo thresh presents. This is why we cut some disruption for more mana and to support an alternate storm engine that would allow us to better develop our manabase vs tempo decks. Extra Duresses and Chants won't help when your manabase is constricted by stifle/waste/cursecatcher/daze. Extra lands and the ability to win when the game is extended is what wins the Doomsday lists this matchup.
Further, how does Duress NOT help against Daze?
Sower is not an answer to a turn 1 or 2 Confidant.Quote:
Because attacking into Tarmogoyf and praying your opponent sided out all removal/sower of temptations is a viable plan for a combo deck. (Hint: they don't side the stuff out because most opponents don't have enough cards to side in against storm. Sowers tend to stay in because it will pitch to Force of Will, steal stray Xantid Swarms/Confidants if the game goes longer, and might even attack for 2. Similarly, Swords often stays in because there is nothing better to bring in for it.)
The problem with Confidant against control is that we have no true control decks with Counterbalance in them. Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant. Worse, the Confidant doesn't actually do anything a few turns later as the opponent still plays creatures. Now you can't attack anymore (probably only dealing 2-6 damage anyway), still have to remove Counterbalance to win, and are giving the opponent more time to find extra Counterbalances or attack you for more further removing the effectiveness of Ad Nauseam.
StP is an answer, but:
1) They will draw StP when you don't have Confidant
2) They will not draw it when you do have Confidant
3) You will oftentimes Duress the StP and then play Confidant
4) You will have 2 Confidant where they have only 1 StP
5) They will draw StP a few turns late, at which point the Confidant has already done its job.
It is a classic example of how a threat is simply better than the answers to it.
Lastly, this statement is just false: "Turn 2 Counterbalance still stops storm even if the Storm deck leads with turn 1 Confidant."
Even without drawing into a Krosan Grip with Confidant, you can simply draw a number of spells, cast them into CB anyway, and then Tendrils for the win.
Dark Confidant means you do not need Ad Nauseam, Ill-Gotten Gains, or Doomsday in order to set up lethal storm. It has been such a strong factor in testing vs. CB that it has been unreal.
agree to disagree shall we ?
Wow, AdN has certainly sent combo in the wrong direction. You get all these people who think combo is nothing more than: ritual, ritual AdN ... win. Very sad actually, then all the people who act like they know how to play combo.
You know what, ur right. Sensei's Divining Top has no place in combo. It contributes nothing to consistency and slows the deck down. Oh wait ..... we aren't playing Belcher and its not about speed. Please gain experience with the deck before mindlessly posting in these threads. People like: emidln, B.C., Bahamuth, kicks 422, Bryant Cook, and myself have been posting on these boards a long time and play combo regularly. We know what makes a combo deck work.
Now, Doomsday is not for everyone, I understand this. Doomsday is easily the most skill testing card in legacy. There is almost always a stack that gets you out of a situation, you just have to see it. And anyone who thinks relying on speed to win matchups should just be ignored because that is ignorant. Combo, regardless of the build, IS NOT GOING TO WIN ON TURNS 1-3 ON A CONSISTENT BASIS. You will have to mulligan and play against your opponent. There are 2 kinds of combo players, competent pilots and idiots who bitch about the deck not working right. OK, I get it, gain experience with the deck. It is not about speed, you want a fast combo deck, play Belcher, it requires a lot less thinking and is a lot less consistent.
Also, its very sad that people still play Dark Confidant. THE CARD IS AWFUL. You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it. This card was run in like ... older TES builds when they needed card advantage. There is a reason people like Bryant Cook, emidln, and myself don't play this card in combo SB, we tested it and its terrible. Xantid Swarm is different, it is not necessary but its really good. If it resolves it makes the mirror just sick and makes Merfolk almost a bye. In the Thresh matchup you don't even have to board them in, just the threat of playing it can mean something.
Honestly, when all the new combo players complain "I can't beat CB" its because they have no idea how to play against it. You want to run Angel's Grace and then side in 3-4 Grip or Wipe Away ... have fun and I wish you luck. Its not about luck or getting good draws, those of us who play combo know AdN is worthless after turn 4 most of the time and Doomsday only requires 2 life to win. Combo is all about having the right build of your deck to win any given matchup at any given time. It has nothing to do with speed, ANT is fast, sure, but consistency is infinitely more important. Those of us who used to play SI, Belcher, and FT can attest to that. Please gain experience with the deck, take it to more than one tournament, then post about your experiences and ask what you could have done to win, chances are excellent that you were in a position to win but just didn't see it.
After saying this about three times now, you haven't given us any reason at all to belive you. Top is not worse than Ponder. Top is not a suboptimal choice. In fact, from a blue players perspective, Top is one of the most dangerous cards in our deck. It is very often the right play to use a FoW on Top. The chances of winning with the Doomsday Hybrid increase enormously if you manage to resolve a first turn Top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Now, you know that list you're all loving and praising? My team has been running that EXACT mainboad for more than a year now. We know how this deck works. We have tested Confidant, and we know it doesn't work and that it doesn't beat Counterbalance. Although there are definitely some situations where a Confidant will give you an advantage, it will hardly ever win you a game like Grip & Top will, and you have way better options to risk it just getting StP'd.
Top is worse than ponder in non-DD builds, it searches and gives you a card the same turn you play it and top doesn't unless you're playing it past the first turns. As people said Ad Nauseam DDLess builds have to go on turn three or maximum four if the opponentent applies pressure and Ponder is better than top here. I am playing Serum Visions in the top slots atm in my ANT (w/o DD) build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
This is actually nothing new, when Vintage was the only Eternal format the most common combo win was mana acceleration, mana acceleration, Yawgmoth's Will or Bazaar of Baghdad, Dragon, Dance of the dead and my favorite Illusions, Donate win. Combo has actually never been a hard deck to play if you just had a little practice with the deck. I agree that Ad Nauseam has made it easier to play combo but it's never been that hard to play combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
When did I ever complain about not being able to play combo? I've been playing combo since the days of Academy and Necro-Trix in Standard. I've been playing Tendrils lists extensively since the card was printed, which was before the format was even revamped with its own B/R list, and probably before you ever picked it up. Attack somebody else's experience, but not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
The reason I was posting in here in the first place is precisely because Kim Kluck's list was so surprisingly good against CB/Top. My testing partner is no slouch in the CB/Top department either, and he was just as surprised as I was. Kim Kluck is excellent at designing decks and this one is no exception.
You can defend Doomsday all day long, but the results back up what I'm saying too. Why are only 7 of the 30 combo decks on deckcheck running Doomsday? Is it because all of them are terrible and just don't know how to play Doomsday properly? Hardly. Why is it that 3 decks in one tournament, which was saturated with CB/Top, ended up with 3 storm lists in the top 4? It sure wasn't because they were playing Doomsday and I'm pretty sure it had a lot to do with their SB Dark Confidants (which I'll get to later).
With that out of way, let's talk about SDT.
The use of SDT is more than just about goldfish speed, which isn't really all that relevant anyway because the deck isn't going to outrace all the 2cc cards that stop it cold (at least not most of the time). Regardless of which turn you win, SDT does slow you down. It has a big impact on your tempo, it makes the rest of your cards a bit slower, and it is very clunky in comparison. There is no denying this.
I love Top and it is very powerful when you have time to set up and sculpt a hand, but the simple fact is Ponder uses 1 mana and Top needs 2 mana to do the same thing. In a highly tempo oriented deck, it is extremely difficult to justify running Top over Ponder or Brainstorm. The real question in regards to SDT is whether the deck *needs* additional search/manipulation beyond 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 4 Mystical, and some set of Infernal Tutors. This is the question that you conveniently didn't answer.
In regards to Dark Confidant, your logic in comparing Xantid to Confidant is...extremely lacking.
"You want a card that dies to every form of removal and offers almost nothing to the deck ... play it"
Using your own words, I'd have to say your argument against Confidant is the exact reason for not including Xantid Swarm.
Dark Confidant offers a lot to the deck. Swarm will do nothing except protect, whereas Confidant will draw you into protection, answers, and business. Confidant will advance your game-plan while simultaneously protecting it, whereas Xantid just protects it without advancing it.
You're all just ranting about how Top costs 2 and all, but you're missing two big things:
First, You don't have to run Top instead of all Ponders, say you run this:
4 BS
3 Ponder
2 Top.
That's a pretty solid list when talking about speed. This list is not very much slower then the regular lists. I think it's good to run 2 tops in a non-DD list. I believe that Top never costs you the turn you need. Top can speed you up: Top in play means an awesome mystical tutor.
Secondly, You can use top MULTIPLE times. Againt Countertop, bant agro, merfolk, eva green, the rock, landstill and even in the mirror, you want to spin top multiple times. Finding double or triple protection is so much easier with one top then it is with one ponder. Against discard, Top is the card that doesn't make you dependent of random topdecks. Ow, and do I need to tell that top is great when facing Chalice or/and Trinisphere?
Please don't use experience as an argument. I don't care at all how long any of the people on these boards have been playing storm combo. It doesn't say anything about how good you are with this deck or what kind of options you have tested.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Please stop praising the dude's list. It's bitter to me. As I already said, we've been running that list for more than a year. There's nothing special about it.
Please don't use deckcheck as an argument. The reality is that Doomsday adds so much difficulty to this deck, that many players (probably including me) are unable to handle it. Numbers on deckcheck don't mean anything. My testing has concluded that most of the lists that we see top 8'ing on deckcheck are crap. This doesn't mean the deck can't win, just that it's a bad version of the deck.
One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.
I have already given you a very good reason to run Top over Ponder. There's no questioning that this deck should run 4 Brainstorm. It is the best card in the format, and the card is used best in this deck.
We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.
:-DQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Testing =/= experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by slobad23
@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.
Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.
You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup, YOU DON'T HAVE TO DRAW SWARM FOR IT TO BE EFFECTIVE. I play the 7th Chant in the board and after bringing it in I can bring in Swarm, but you don't have to. The threat of not having answers leads your opponents to cut better card and leave in StP just because they can't deal with a resolved Swarm. Also, Merfolk has no answer for a resolved Swarm. Confidant is terrible against Merfolk, kills you almost as fast as the fishies do. But just to be clear, you are not reliant at all on Swarm, it is there for when you need it but you don't even have to draw it. When running Confidant you become reliant on him and after your opponent counters it with Spell Snare (the Hybrid runs 5 2 drops and easily avoids this) or kills it then you are in topdeck mode. Confidant hurts consistency issues and you become reliant on it.
I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.
link?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
i'm learning to play storm now, and my google-fu is weak
This was in his sig:
http://docs.google.com/View?id=d3hxs7m_16cr3v59c9
There is a link to crafting DD piles in there as well.
Here is the original DDFT list which is a little outdated but the info on how to play DD still applies:
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showt...light=doomsday
It is very important to read these, find an updated list of ANT running DD or put one of the old DDFT lists together, and then goldfish the hell out of it till you get it. I actually printed off some of the piles and started looking at hands that I thought could win and then went through the piles to see what worked. Just keep going till you get it.
You make all sorts of implications about my experience, so don't expect that I'll just sit by and ignore them. You can sit here and make all sorts of statements about play skill or experience that you want, but nobody who can think beyond a 10th grade level will take these attacks seriously and it would be best if you left experience and/or play skill arguments at home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Ironically, the only argument you have used so far is...your own experience. You tell me that my experience is not a valid argument, yet the only argument you can present is your own experience. Perhaps you should reconsider what you're saying because it is very close-minded.
I don't care to discuss childish remarks like these any further. If you have an issue, PM me about it.
Sure Top is great in a control role, but this is not a control deck.Quote:
One Top alone let's this deck play the control role extremely well. I don't think there's any deck in Legacy right now, that can outcontrol this deck once it resolves a Top. Top is by no means clunky. The fact that Top sometimes slows you down is completely irrelevant, because there's no difference in wether you win games fast or not if you win them anyway. The lists with Top and Doomsday perform much better against all sorts of blue decks because these lists are slower.
I've already explained why a threat is better than an answer. At worst Confidant will trade 1:1 with an enemy card, sometimes he will stay in play several turns and give you an advantage, and sometimes he will win the game by himself. More often than not he falls into the latter 2 categories.Quote:
We (at least I, but I thought more people beside me) don't board in Swarm against decks that run removal at all. I don't want Confidant against Merfolk, because I need to be relatively quick in this matchup. Xantid Swarm doesn't get removed because it isn't boarded in against decks that can remove it. You name Confidant as an answer to CB. Pretty much every CB list answers Confidant, either through Spell Snare or StP. You don't want any of those to happen.
I never said anything about Confidant against Merfolk though.
I never said Top was a bad card, or that it wouldn't let you win.Quote:
@Rico_Suave: Sorry, your post was very long and I conveniently forgot to address something, which I shall address now. Yes, ANT needs to run Top. This is the same amount of cantrips that TES runs and I have had consistency issues in the past with that deck (which has more ways to win) just running Ponders and BS. Top is infinitely better than Ponder in any control matchup. If you abuse it properly with fetchlands + additional shuffle effects it lets you do insane things. Also, having Top in play and casting Brainstorm with LEDs and AdN in hand is a win. You pull so many wins out of nowhere if you properly know how to play it, I have won numerous games when I had shit tons of mana + 2 Tops and just shuffled them back and forth into a Tendrils.
However, it's not better than Ponder. Even against control it's much better to cast a Ponder because you have your other mana open to do whatever you please. Your game plan falls into place earlier. You are able to take advantage of tempo and make plays that your opponent simply cannot answer solely because of the timing.
I could go on and on about tempo, which is extremely important in such a tempo-oriented deck, but I think you get the idea.
It doesn't have much to do with consistency. In fact, it's hard to argue that a deck with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Ponder, and 8 tutors is inconsistent. Would more Tops help to create more consistency? Sure, but it's extremely redundant, and like I said earlier you'll just end up searching for more search which is pointless.
Like I said, Top is not a bad card. There will be times you'd rather have Top than Ponder, but guess what? There will be times you'd rather have Mons Goblin Raiders instead of either one.Quote:
Top also helps during AdN, if one is in play or revealed, it always helps Mystical Tutor + additional storm. I have had many a bad AdN reveals where i can only make one blue mana but a lot of black ... no problem with Top. Ritual it out then MT into the win. The hybrids are just as fast as regular ANT lists. They consistently win on turns 1-3. Top may slow the deck down fundamentally by a turn, but I would rather wait till turn 3-4 and draw what I need rather than risk keeping a terrible hand with all acceleration and Ponder. Top makes more hands keepable, almost any hand with land, Top, fetch in it is keepable. It also helps filter your bad draws after a mulligan, Ponder only happens once, Top works every turn.
It doesn't matter if there is a scenario where Top is better. What matters is which card is better in the deck.
http://www.starcitygames.com/php/new...p?Article=3350
Who said anything about relying on it? It's just one tool to achieve the deck's goal. It is hardly a crutch for the deck if that is what you're implying.Quote:
You totally missed my point about Xantid Swarm. You are relying on Dark Confidant to make a difference in the CB matchup,
I'm not talking about the being able to create a Doomsday stack.Quote:
I am not going to discuss Doomsday and how amazing the card is, it has been discussed in depth in numerous different threads; a competent storm player can get the hang of it, its just a matter of putting in the hours, reading the articles emidln wrote, and learning how to play it right.
I'm talking about the function of Doomsday in the deck. What does it solve? Being able to win at low life and/or mana? Guess what, when you run Doomsday you end up being forced to run SDT, and SDT will eat up your mana and slow you down so you end up at low life and low mana in the first place.
In a way, it is self defeating. Furthermore, if you run SDT you make one of two choices:
1) You run SDT in place of Ponder
2) You run more search than the deck needs (or wants)
Neither of those are good. Doomsday takes the focus away from being able to generate storm and more into the realm of a fancy but unnecessary trick, and you risk losing because of the danger of cool things. In fact, I'd argue that if Doomsday is really that difficult to play properly, that's a pretty damn good reason in and of itself not to run it in the first place.
What it boils down to is this: does the deck need a 3rd engine to generate storm? No.
Wow, that is seriously some of the worst combo advice I have ever read. Welcome to my ignore list :smile:
Not to stir up more arguing but he does make valid points, but can we please stop arguing.
I would like to discuss sideboard options for specific decks.
SB against:
Black Discard(Eva Green, Pox, Homebrew)
4 Confidants?
Additional Ad Nauseam/Tendrils
Progenitus Threshold
Silences
Wipe Away/Krosan
Mirror
Angel's Grace
Maybe Confidants (Maybe not because of life loss)
Survival
Don't think anything is needed, match-up is really easy
Dragon Stompy
Echoing Truth
Hurky's Recall
Wipe Away/ Krosan
Landstill
Same as thresh
Do those look like solid SB choices? I'd like to hear people's opinions and what people found best from experience.
You know what, fuck it. I'm not arguing with you any longer. Please go ahead and keep getting your Confidants StP'd and keep losing to Tempo Thresh because you don't run Top. I don't think you completely see what Top does for you in this deck, and I don't think you ever will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
Ok, I'll continue the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Experiance is an indicator, but it doesn't mean someone is correct. There is no way to prove one person is right on this matter. But that is not the goal either, the goal is to convince people to try what works best for yourself, to help them.
I have experiance with both DDay and non-DDay (similar to kim kluck's list(-1 land, +1 Cabal Ritual) the list Bahamuth was talking about, from our team) and I am non entirely sure which one is best. But I am sure their power level is really close and DDay is something to look into.
True. But this doesn't mean it's not an advantage being able to play in control mode. Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage. It doesn't force you in the control mode, although many times you will use it since it is so good in that role. It still is a combo deck though, when you know you must race, you can still race (against zoo gobs for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Trading 1 for 1 is horrible in this deck. Imagine your opponent was able to trade all their useless StP's, Deed's, Lands, Elspeths, etc for your Brainstorms, Dark Rituals, Infernal Tutors. The enemy card he is trading with was probably a dead card otherwise. I am not saying the card is horrible, but I don't think it is the best option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Well, my experiance is that Top is a whole lot better against decks that have no or not much of a clock. The reason is simple to see: in this case you will have enough mana over the course of the game and won't be able to spend it all on other things. My experiance is also that Ponder is better against decks with a fast clock, so Top isn't strictly better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
This part I believe has some merit. I have said the same things. But you can say whatever you want, the deck works pretty well for me (not much better than the non-DDay list though) so I kindly give you the advice to try it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
Just one thing about your last arguments, I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards.
RE: Top
If your opponent doesn't have much of a clock, or no clock, you shouldn't have much trouble winning. Sure Top will be better than Ponder in those situations, but the deck doesn't need to be better in those situations.
Ponder is worlds better than Top when under pressure though, and those are the times this deck needs the most it can get tempo wise from its own cards.
"Being able to play control; improving your position more than your opponent over time, is an advantage."
This is not control. This is called developing your resources. Ultimately you are still the aggressor in almost every match. =|
RE: The optimal amount of search
"I don't think the deck doesn't want more search than 4 Ponder/4 BS/4Mystical. With this configuration I encounter this situation more than feels right: opening hand has mana, lands(, Protection) and just 1 brainstorm/Ponder. The BS/Ponder doesn't find another cantrip/Mystical/IT or AdN and you are waiting while drawing random cards."
This is a valid argument. Now how often does this lose the game?
Of course, when playing with more search, I encountered the situation of having too much search, and encountered it more often than felt right.
Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.
I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.
Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.
Whatever you like to call it, Top does an amazing job at it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rico Suave
More on point: If you define control as the deck that gets better then the other deck over time, then this is in 75% of the matchups the controldeck.
Complete bullshit argument for uhm, really anything. Whatever.Quote:
Regardless of how much search is actually in the deck, there will be times where it shows up too much or too little.
I think you're gonna be disappointed when you'll test it more. No one here is saying you have to run 4 Top in non-DD ANT. But try two of them, and you'll be fine. I think you cannot know wether ponder #4 belongs in this deck more then Top does. I like seeing Top now and then, so I run two. Three can be done, one tooQuote:
I can't say for certain that no Tops belong in the deck. I feel comfortable saying that 4 each of BS/Ponder/Top/Mystical/IT does not belong. I can also say that 4 Ponder definitely belong before any Tops do.
And please, listen to the guys who do have more experience with this deck and have done more testing, before you keep on being stubborn. Pulp_Fiction, Bahamuth and matelm are all very capable players and really know what they are talking about here.
Then you're not playing it right. On paper, the addition of DD makes this deck slower. However, you're getting one fantastic solution for that problem: DD itself. I think there is only one valid reason not to run DD in your deck at this point: Not being able to play it. And before you'll attack me because you think this is directed at you: it is not. Not only DD itself, but the dicisions when to play what cantrips are really hard. There no shame in admitting you're not able to play this deck good enough, I for example am sure that I can't.Quote:
Doomsday will distort this as previously mentioned. That is why I do not like playing it, as it forces the use of cards that I don't feel are optimal. This is ignoring any sort of problems with the use of the card itself.
Ok I only play storm in vintage , i play aggro in legacy usually. Who the fuck would ever keep there removal in against storm? ever? Burn sure.....swords? fuck no, smother? no......sooooooo kinda a retarded argument and i cant really think someones SB plan when expecting a turn 2 clock without disruption is 2 land a threat and STP there own guy. So outside of G1 why the fuck would non red have removal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
As far as top/vs instant speed you have to consider what your goal is:
I reccomend looking at the diffrences between ad nauseum and like BoB Tendrils in vintage......they both storm but are drastically diffrent decks. Check it out maybe some innovation will occur
@ Rico Suave
What Elf Ascetic said. You don't have to play 4 tops, you don't even have to modify the list by replacing a playset of anything. I agree with both parts in this discussion to some extent, and my own list is more similar to yours. I don't play doomsday and I also like confidant, even if it's 2 years old tech, I don't care if I appear noobish. I admit that I haven't tested doomsday enough to really know what situations it can save me from, so I won't say anything about that particular spell. It just seems to frickin' hard to me! But so far, I am happy with the list i play.
Still, I replaced the 4th ponder and 4th Infernal tutor with 2 tops, and I really like it. I hardly miss the replaced spells, and when the top do show up, it has helped me in situations where I am in a bad topdeck streak, i.e. I held a hand with 1 or 2 cantrips and mana development and still didn't find anything useful, just ending up with draw go with a lot of mana unused for the turn.