[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by rockout

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.

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A friend of mine forced his opponent to block Mishra's Factory so his Progenitus died. :cool:

(2 life left, Humility in play)


What are the thoughts about Academy ruins? I like the card combined with 2-3 EE and a Crucible, but I really hate the colorless mana it produces..

A typical landstillmanabase would look like this:

5-6 fetchland
4-5 basics
4-7-8 duals
3-4 factorys
0-3 wasteland
0-1 dust bowl
0-1 academy ruins
0-1 tolaria west.
0-2 Eternal Dragons

I'm currently on 24: 6 fetch, 5 basics, 7 duals, 1 dust bowl, 1 dragon, 4 factory.

Would Ruins be good in a meta where control is almost absent?

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Originally Posted by klaus

Lol. That ain't SpeedStill.
One of SpeedStill's trademarks is the heavy black splash (incl. 3 Vindicates, %% Chalice, CB).

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I am aware of that.
The point I was making is that Speedstill has very similiar problems with Counterbalance as the list you posted.

Was it so hard to understand?

Damn that was THE example for irony not working online...again.

@ Elf_Ascetic:
I don't think that single Dust Bowl is worth it, if you can't tutor it up.
Plus if control isn't a factor in your meta, how about just cutting it?
You aren't screwing anyone with that one card.

I like Academy Ruins a lot for the lock it creates / overkill with Crypt postboard. I guess it is not totally necessary but if there are no heavy loads of landdestruction in your meta, I'd run it.

So I'm coming back to 3 color after a long time with 4c, I'm just sick of the manabase issues. I cobbled this build together and I think it looks promising but any help would be much appreciated.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 island
2 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
1 eternal dragon
1 relic of projenitus
1 humility
1 crucible of worlds
1 enlightened tutor

I guess it's a bit old school without elspeth or vindicate, so let me know what you think.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

So I'm coming back to 3 color after a long time with 4c, I'm just sick of the manabase issues. I cobbled this build together and I think it looks promising but any help would be much appreciated.

4 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
4 tundra
1 tropical island
1 savannah
2 island
2 plains
4 mishra's factory
1 tolaria west
1 academy ruins
1 dust bowl

4 standstill
4 brainstorm
2 fact or fiction
4 counterspell
4 force of will
3 spell snare

4 swords to plowshares
3 wrath of god
2 engineered explosives
2 decree of justice
1 eternal dragon
1 relic of projenitus
1 humility
1 crucible of worlds
1 enlightened tutor

I guess it's a bit old school without elspeth or vindicate, so let me know what you think.

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-1 Relic (it cycles without any impact in many games = SB material)
-1 Decree of Justice (you wanna draw it late game only, and Elspeth is teh nutz!)
- 1 Dragon (you don't need him with Elses you almost never get to time)
-2 Counterspell you just don't need that many
+2 Elspeth
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Sensei's Divining Top (that guy wins games)
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Just my 2 pence..

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Originally Posted by klaus

-1 Relic (it cycles without any impact in many games = SB material)
-1 Decree of Justice (you wanna draw it late game only, and Elspeth is teh nutz!)
- 1 Dragon (you don't need him with Elses you almost never get to time)
-2 Counterspell you just don't need that many
+2 Elspeth
+1 Krosan Grip
+2 Sensei's Divining Top (that guy wins games)
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Just my 2 pence..

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as a 1 of you are right on relic. But if he plays it with a wish package he should absolutely love it. The utilitiy that two wish two relic gives you is actually quite impressive. The only thing I really don't like is the green splash, but thats just personal opinion. I believe you can't play 3c currently without 3 EP in the board.

So...black splash then? My impression of e.plague when I played 4c is that it's more of a speedbump against the 8 lord decks. I just figured grip might be more valuable as a sideboard option. I already tried elspeth on mws and I wasn't a huge fan honestly, I know people have mixed feelings on her but I just wasn't blown away. I do, however, really like the idea of top, especially since it gives me even more to do under a standstill. Is maindeck relic really no good? I play no grave effects accept a lone crucible, it seems great against goyf/stalker/terravore type decks, keep them off burning wish and they can't really win. I don't know, I'll test some more. I miss deed already.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

I miss deed already.

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Play 3 EEs & 3 Vindicates and you should be all set.

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Originally Posted by klaus

I have to disagree with you here: Brainstorm is the best draw spell in Legacy, and I'd go as far as claiming "regardless of the resp. archetype, as long as the deck provides 5+ fetches". What you say about BS being awesome in the mid-game when paired with a fetch land is true but stating it's not a mana fixer in the early game boarders on blasphemy..
Compared to decks packing Ponder (aka. BS 5-8) BS becomes even more crucial as a mana fixer (regardless of the overall land count, LS needs more land online than those ponder.decs anyway).
The ideal LS starting 7 consist of 3 land 4 other rather low-costed cards [allowing you to comfortably reach the mid-game]. Well, more often than not we end up with 2-land-hands, praying for good topdecks. Quite frequently Brainstorm functions as earlygame land drop #3 and consequently as land 24-27/25-28, which is fantastic.
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Many U-control players misplay BS as an early-game manafixer, though.
Say they made their 2nd land drop (no fetchies among them), having no more land in hand but a BS - I'd say 90% would go BS @ the end of their opp's turn, regardless of what else they're holding. I won't go in depth here because it's not the appropriate post for this, but playing that BS in turn let's you see one more card and thus increases the chance of making that vital 3rd land drop quite a bit.
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Being able to shuffle those Decrees and Elses and Wraths etc away between turn 2-4 is slick tech, too.

Anyway, I'd run 7 if I could.

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The Brainstorm thing is a very situational issue, in certain situations and in certain builds of Landstill it is better or worse. In the current build I have up there I strongly favor the 3rd Spellsnare over the 4th Brainstorm. I've explained my approach and reasonings for this strategy and I stand by the desicion to only run 3 in my build.

Builds of Landstill that aren't as redundent as mine would probably be better off with the 4th Brainstorm. I don't go for the tool box approach I simply go for the steady inevitable win and my list is very well set up to do just that.

It's funny that the Landstill thread gets split and we still have 2 different builds of Landstill evolving in the same thread. Traditional U/W style builds and the newer "Speedstill" approach to the deck. Unfortunatly having 2 very different decks in the same thread creates confusion when getting down to card choices and reasonings. I would never cut the Brainstorm from Klaus's list but it is irrelivent when cut from my list. This is something to consider when looking at people's perspective and their advice.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

So...black splash then? My impression of e.plague when I played 4c is that it's more of a speedbump against the 8 lord decks. I just figured grip might be more valuable as a sideboard option. I already tried elspeth on mws and I wasn't a huge fan honestly, I know people have mixed feelings on her but I just wasn't blown away. I do, however, really like the idea of top, especially since it gives me even more to do under a standstill. Is maindeck relic really no good? I play no grave effects accept a lone crucible, it seems great against goyf/stalker/terravore type decks, keep them off burning wish and they can't really win. I don't know, I'll test some more. I miss deed already.

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Personally I live and die by my list, but you already knew that.

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Originally Posted by rockout

I agree. Hopefully I'll be lucky enough to swords a Progenitus. That is my next goal as a Landstill player.

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Personally, it was a great feeling for me to block a Progenitus with a soldier token [and kill it, obviously.]

So how about humility? It seems like alot of people still play it, though I dont really like it anymore since it turns you into the reactive player, getting shafted by shit like krosan grip while your opponent just bides his time, setting up his game to the point where you just get destroyed by a bunch of goblin piledrivers you considered vanilla 1/1's until your opponent decided to actually make a move.

I don't know. It seems like a great card, but it feels like you're setting yourself up to be on the receiving end of legendary plays, instead of delivering them yourself.

I think that is sometimes a valid concern. However, in my experience the destruction of humility plays out in two ways. One, the opponent deals with it quickly before mounting a generous offense, allowing you to use spot removal and decree to deal with what he has. Two, the opponent takes the turns necessary to mount an offense while you draw tons of cards. He grips your humility but you either have a decree in hand or elspeth down (I don't play her, but still thinking about it). You block and survive, untap, and wrath. I know that sounds like a narrow situation but it actually plays out like that fairly often. Or, of course, you beat in with factories/decree tokens and win before they can handle it.

Humility is still great against decks that do not run Krosan Grip

I still consider it as a major bomb. Left unanswered, you usually win the game. My list also run Crucible of Worlds. I prefer my opponent using their Grip on Humility than on COW

Robert

Here are my problems with UW Landstill today.

Is it me or Landstill simply dies to Moon Effects? My opponent is a good Dragonstompy player and he runs a list with three Trinisphere, 4 Magus, 3 Blood Moon all MD, together with Chalice @1. The only games that I've won are: either I went first so Spell Snare stopped Chalice@1, and I FOWed all his moon effects or fetched for enough basics after that. Even with pure UW Landstill, I run into too much colorless. My manabase was:

4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

and my list was
INTUITION UW LANDSTILL
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
1 Tropical Island (for EE @3 against Moon effects)
4 Islands
2 Plains
2 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins

Draws/Tutor
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Diving Top (this is so good with Standstill)
4 Standstill
2 Intuition

Permission:
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell

Board control
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Elspeth
1 Decree of Justice (not liking this too much)
1 Humility
1 Wrath of God
2 Vedalken Shackles (Always been a fan of these in any form of blue control deck. It is another good win-condition. A little inconsistent with the manabase against wastelands/moon in my meta, great with Intuition tutoring)
1 Crucible of Worlds



I play my own variant, with Intuition for Academy+Crucible+Wasteland/Shackles lock. Seems weak sometimes. I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.

What's the common Wishtarget for Wishstill? Enlightened tutor to search up your lock? Why not run 2-3 Enlightened Tutor? Is there too much card disadvantage with Enlightened Tutor?

I thought I would have a bad MU against black discard, but apparently, spell snare, STP, Brainstorm does so much against them, and Standstill refills your hand without any trouble.

If anyone can answer my questions about Landstill's MU and weaknesses, and how to improve on the games against chalice/3sphere/Moon.dec, I'd really appreciate it. I think I found my favorite deck after MUC. UW Landstill is an edge more powerful than MUC due to the white splash.

I'm not fan of decrees either. Also I think that humility is great card, but it makes Eternal Dragon 'useless'. I would like to cut one decree and dragon but then there would be less win conditions.

I'm running this list:

creature [2]
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

instant [20]
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Spell Snare

sorcery [4]
2 Decree of Justice
2 Wrath of God

enchantment [6]
4 Standstill
2 Humility

artifact [4]
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds

land [24]
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Tundra
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Scrubland
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl

Thinking about something like this:
-1 Dust Bowl
-1 Tolaria West
-1 Academy Ruins
-1 Crucible of Worlds
-1 Eternal Dragon
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2-3 Vindicate
+3 Wasteland
+1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant

If you don't like Humility to shrink your Dragon, just play Top instead of the creature. I can say that Sensei's Divining Top replaces the Dragon completely plus it grants you the "Godcheat" (Standstill + Top) and it will give you an even bigger mid/lategame.

Concerning your changes I'd say that they look reasonable except for cutting the Crucible. When you prefer the Wasteland manabase then I'd strongly advise to play Crucible as well, for the obvious reasons.
I don't know if it necessary to play 24 lands with that manabase, since I had no problems with my 23 so far, but it might be different when you run Wastelands.

@crz87: Run E. Dragon if you are having trouble being DS.

The argument against Humility that it makes your Eternal Dragon 1/1 ist just ridiculus. When you have your Humitily in play you will probably win through Decree/Factory/Elspeth and you don't need to play your Dragon anyway. By the way, the dragon is in 90% of your games just mana fixer.

The problem with Wrath is, that you are often forced to trade it 1/1 or 1/2 against Goyf or other creatures, if you have no other removal. Humility is a real threat on the Board against most decks, cause it disables all creatures on the board and those that will come in the later game. Your oppenent will have to answer it with countermagic or Grip or will probably loose. Wrath gives you some time, but as soon as another threat comes on the board your problems start again. And most players are intelligent enough not to overextend against Lanstill.
By the way, the opponent will need his or her grips for EE as well, which makes it quite likely that you will get at least EE or Humility to work.

I play following list which seems quite satisfying to me.

MAIN DECK:

lands(24):
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Tolaria West
1 Academy Ruins
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

counter(15):
4 FoW
4 CS
4 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

drawing engine(8):
4 Standstill
4 Brainstorm

board control and removal(9):
4 StPS
3 EE
2 Humility

finisher(4):
2 Decree of Justice
1 Eternal Dragon
1 Crucible (is board contol, mana fixer or finisher because it reanimates your factories)

SIDEBOARD:
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
3 Etirpate
3 REB
2 Hydroblast
4 Engineered Plague


This list has a massive counterbase which is just great against so many decks today. Spell Snare is equally useful against most aggro, combo and control. For me it seems everything but playing 4 is a mistake.

I do without Enligthened Tutor and Cunning Wish. I think they are too slow. Tutor would be really great to search EE, Crucible or Humility and maybe I would play 1, but I don't like the carddisadvantage which is against the principles of Landstill in my opinion. But I'm not really sure about the Tutor (and what I would cut for it, maybe 1 CS). It definately is a great top deck in the mid and late game. I would be glad to hear some opinions on that one.
Cunning Wish is simply not useful against most bad Aggro matchups like Goyf Sligh. Having more Snares or Stifles in that slot keeps you alive in the early game. Cunning Wish is really bad in the early game and ruins your Sideboard which are to many negatives for me to play it.

I play 2 Decree of Justice, because it cycles. Maybe I would change one into Elspeth or a Wrath. I built this Deck to get Landstill a better early and mid game and cards like Elspeth are just bad on your starting hand and only useful, if you have board control. In 90% of all games I kill with factory and decree alone and I don't feel the need of Elspeth, though she may be a great card. Decree can surpsie the opponent while attacking, but it is vulnerable against Stifle which is played more frequently these days.

I feel like most Landstill players play to many killing options. I often see 3 Decree and 2 Elspeth. But I think it occurs rarely that you have board control and just nothing to kill your opponent. In the past I often lost because of the opposite. If you attack carefully with your Factory and not without counter protection against StPS you can win the game with 1-2 Factories alone.

I think you might want to rethink your list and run some more win conditions. Since you cut fof your only ways of "digging" are having crucible in play and fetching all the lands out of your deck, casting bs, or relying on standstill to get there. Sometimes standstill is that good but a lot of times you won't see your win conditions without some dig to dig deeper or just your number of outs.

4 Standstills and 4 Brainstorms aren't enough. Try running some SDTs or Ponders if you dislike FoF.

Not sure if any of you saw this, but vroman did a tournament report on a Landstill variant he played at the GP. It looks pretty bizarre to me, but hey what do I know, he did decently well.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=37544.0

He cut Brainstorm for Thirst, Counterspell for Negate, and used Chrome Mox to power out a higher than usual enchantment count. Manlands as the only win-cons. Huh? Also note he lost the mirror, facing superior card drawing and board control.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

4 Standstills and 4 Brainstorms aren't enough. Try running some SDTs or Ponders if you dislike FoF.

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Hmm, I don't really think so. With Landstill you normally play 25 turns at least. And if you resolve Brainstorms and Standstills you will see probably about 1/2 to 2/3 of your Deck to find win conditions. And as I said before, mostly the problem is not finding win conditions, it's staying alive long enough to win with them.

I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.

I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.

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Originally Posted by Spur Grappler

Hmm, I don't really think so. With Landstill you normally play 25 turns at least. And if you resolve Brainstorms and Standstills you will see probably about 1/2 to 2/3 of your Deck to find win conditions. And as I said before, mostly the problem is not finding win conditions, it's staying alive long enough to win with them.

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If you can keep your opponent in check for the next 13 turns, then this logic should work.

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I played 1-2 FoF for a long time in older Landstill Builds and it wasn't bad of course. But my Intention was to keep Landstill fast enough, to keep up with faster Decks. To get 1-2 FoF in, I would have to cut some Counterspells and I am afraid of this.

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If you want to keep up with faster decks, that doesn't mean cut FoF; that means run more early game answers like Spell Snare. I also see Stifle in there too... but Stifle is so situational.

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I think I will cut one Counterspell for a FoF and see if it is better. FoF is FoW-pitchable which makes it maybe better than an Enligthened Tutor.

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Cut your Stifles altogether for a couple FoFs and other random cards. Stifles just don't do that much, especially against your trouble match ups. Also, TES isn't a valid answer; they run Chants and Ad Nauseam.

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Originally Posted by crz87

I really want to green for LftL. I might play some sort of UWg or UWbg Landstill with LftL and Intuition, but untill I solve the colorless issue, or effects under Moon, I don't know if I'll pick up this deck for my metagame.

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Since you're using Green for your 3rd color for EE anyway I'd definitely run a Life from the Loam, it makes you're Intuition piles that much more busted.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Cut your Stifles altogether for a couple FoFs and other random cards. Stifles just don't do that much, especially against your trouble match ups. Also, TES isn't a valid answer; they run Chants and Ad Nauseam.

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This may be true. I really like Stifle because of it's flexibility, but countering fetchlands, which of course stays very strong, works mainly against good matchups. Against problematic decks like Dragon/Fairy Stompy, Mono U Faeries/Merfolk and most other aggro Stifle isn't that strong. I'll try 2 FoF and Wrath for them I think.

I for one, absolutely love stifle in landstill. I've said it before; stifling a first or second turn fetch land is extremely powerful. :wink:

The lack of stifle in the common landstill deck-lists results in more people walking into a first turn stifle. In those cases, the game feels... just.. easy...

I say if you like stifle, use it.

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

I for one, absolutely love stifle in landstill. I've said it before; stifling a first or second turn fetch land is extremely powerful. :wink:

The lack of stifle in the common landstill deck-lists results in more people walking into a first turn stifle. In those cases, the game feels... just.. easy...

I say if you like stifle, use it.

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Stifle is strong if you have enough pressure to back it up in the early game. Which is why decks like thresh/ merfolk/ fish ect. play it. Decks like Landstill simply do not have the kind of pressure to make stifle the insane card it really is when you need it. I'm willing to be that your reasoning behind stifle being soo good is that of the sloppy play into suprise factor.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Stifle is strong if you have enough pressure to back it up in the early game. Which is why decks like thresh/ merfolk/ fish ect. play it. Decks like Landstill simply do not have the kind of pressure to make stifle the insane card it really is when you need it. I'm willing to be that your reasoning behind stifle being soo good is that of the sloppy play into suprise factor.

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Landstill applies pressure... a very different kind of pressure. Decks that generally run LD tend to apply pressure by winning. When a deck like Landstill applies pressure, it's different. What Landstill tries to achieve when it uses LD is to use the gained tempo to set up a more dominant position over the opponent. That in itself becomes pressure because winning for you becomes inevitable if you achieve the dominant position. This is also why using LD in control decks is much more efficient compared to aggro; because if the LD fails, you can fallback easier. This is also why Geoff Smelski runs Vindicate, because if LD aspect fails, then you can just use Vindicate to blow things up.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

Landstill applies pressure... a very different kind of pressure. Decks that generally run LD tend to apply pressure by winning. When a deck like Landstill applies pressure, it's different. What Landstill tries to achieve when it uses LD is to use the gained tempo to set up a more dominant position over the opponent. That in itself becomes pressure because winning for you becomes inevitable if you achieve the dominant position. This is also why using LD in control decks is much more efficient compared to aggro; because if the LD fails, you can fallback easier. This is also why Geoff Smelski runs Vindicate, because if LD aspect fails, then you can just use Vindicate to blow things up.

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This is very true, the Waste and Vindicate strategy as Mana Denial come's out of nowhere and is usually game against decks like Survival. Stifle is different than Vindicate though, I've never had much luck with a dedicated Mana Denial strategy in Landstill outside of Crucible + Waste. The Vindicate's are alway's useful and Stifle is situationally a bomb. Stifle would probably work best in lists that are running Plainswalkers in the MD.

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Originally Posted by konsultant

This is very true, the Waste and Vindicate strategy as Mana Denial come's out of nowhere and is usually game against decks like Survival. Stifle is different than Vindicate though, I've never had much luck with a dedicated Mana Denial strategy in Landstill outside of Crucible + Waste. The Vindicate's are alway's useful and Stifle is situationally a bomb. Stifle would probably work best in lists that are running Plainswalkers in the MD.

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Interesting perspective. I think i'd have to play a list that runs wasteland/stifle or vindicate in order to get a better perspective. The last time I ran stifle/wasteland in landstill had to be sometime in 06 when I first began playing the archtype. As for the general approach I don't really prefer the strategy as my flavor of approach, but I should test it anyways.

BTW quick update, 4x spell snare has been absurdly good. Having that 40% chance in the opener has been regularly brutal. The switch has been more then worth it. Sorry Ponder :(

What do you guys think of Vendilion Clique? It would help (?) you against combo mu and it would also be a great finisher with evasion. You could also take and put your unwanted decree on the bottom of your library and draw needed answers ;).

But I'm just pondering here, haven't really tried it yet.

Mossivo likes 'em. They seem like really good utility if you can find room. They are quite fragile, however. So it's probably very meta dependent.

At the GP, I ran stifle and vindicate out of the board (my list is a few pages back). Both cards are good in the mirror. I've certainly won a lot more games stifling planewalkers/decree/deed/all goblins than turbo land destruction. It was nice having that option though.

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Originally Posted by Ziilot

What do you guys think of Vendilion Clique? It would help (?) you against combo mu and it would also be a great finisher with evasion. You could also take and put your unwanted decree on the bottom of your library and draw needed answers ;).

But I'm just pondering here, haven't really tried it yet.

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I tryed them out and they were always like "oh, you have two plowshares and another removal...hmmmm...keep it".
Since I really like the card I`d like to hear some pros for the card :)

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Originally Posted by dakkon

At the GP, I ran stifle and vindicate out of the board (my list is a few pages back). Both cards are good in the mirror. I've certainly won a lot more games stifling planewalkers/decree/deed/all goblins than turbo land destruction. It was nice having that option though.

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I can see where one might consider stifle in the board but I strongly disagree with vindicate.

Stifle actually has a solid purpose in its demeaner to stop combo/ gain solid tempo in certain matchups but vindicate to me is such an all purpose utility card that I would think its either maindecked or just isn't run. There simply in my mind is no reason to run it in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Interesting perspective. I think i'd have to play a list that runs wasteland/stifle or vindicate in order to get a better perspective. The last time I ran stifle/wasteland in landstill had to be sometime in 06 when I first began playing the archtype. As for the general approach I don't really prefer the strategy as my flavor of approach, but I should test it anyways.

BTW quick update, 4x spell snare has been absurdly good. Having that 40% chance in the opener has been regularly brutal. The switch has been more then worth it. Sorry Ponder :(

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If anything, play the lists with Vindicate. Stifle is such a mediocre card.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

If anything, play the lists with Vindicate. Stifle is such a mediocre card.

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Hmm I dont know, if your thinking of the random ld approach stifle+Vind. + Wasteland seems even stronger then normal approaches, but then again I guess it depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes?

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Hmm I dont know, if your thinking of the random ld approach stifle+Vind. + Wasteland seems even stronger then normal approaches, but then again I guess it depends on how deep the rabbit hole goes?

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I've played a lot of builds with Stifle/Wasteland. 4c Landstill was awful because it was inconsistent, UWG Epic Landstill was decent but Stifles didn't do much outside of pitching to FoW and Stifle didn't matter when I was playing against Threshold. The mild LD elements would blunder out on me because Thresh was designed to fight Wastelands and other forms of LD in mind thanks to their cantrips.

I'd prefer Vindicate and Wasteland, mainly because Vindicate can destroy lands, Counterbalance, Goyfs and Gaddock Teeg.

Do we not remember the hilarity that this post brought:

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Originally Posted by rockout

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Originally Posted by Ch@os

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Originally Posted by Viscosity

First turn stifling a fetch land is still the best play for a landstill deck.

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nope

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I lol'd

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? Apparently not. Why run stifle in your ld package. Run Vindicate. It answers anything in the format besides nimble mongoose.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Do we not remember the hilarity that this post brought:



? Apparently not. Why run stifle in your ld package. Run Vindicate. It answers anything in the format besides nimble mongoose.

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And Nimble Mongoose can be answered via WoG or Mishra's Factory. Decks that generally run Mongoose and removal spells generally run Brainstorms. People tend to Brainstorm their removal away. That's a valid reason to trade Factories for Mongeese.