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What other white non-basics are available besides Flagstones? Less plains makes us stronger against Massacre but also weaker to the inevitable mirror match with THC. Cavern is great with more humans but running more than 2 will be tricky with still 10-12 non-humans (SFM, Revoker, Wisp).
You can search card text for mana symbols in Gatherer using squiggly parenthesis. Ex: {W} is white mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by RobNC
That being said, the only good ones for utility I've found besides Flagstones are Kjeldoran Outpost, Mistveil Plains, and a couple others. I'm more interested in testing Deserts myself, particularly for the mirror or similar matchups. A playset of Deserts will rule a Grixis deck by themselves.
Running 3 Caverns is fine and 4 might even be correct. Resolving Chalice of the Void for X through Cavern of Souls is an extremely broken play and you want to be setting yourself up for it. Caverns also help let you push the deck's curve up without getting blown out by Daze.
Finn, going down to 3 Thalia sounds like heresy...but if we're replacing her with other hatebears (e.g. 1 of Spirit and 1 of Ethersworn) + Prelates, who knows? She's also terrible in the mirror and not good against other matchups that aren't getting better with the new cards (e.g. Eldrazi.) It's almost certainly wrong, but it's worth talking about.
In today's meta a 1 of Revoker could probably do the job, but if DnT (and DnT predators like Elves) grow in popularity, then the card's even more important.
I've built Imperial sideboards as creature collections for a while and I'm pretty sure it's the right way to go about it. Having 5 copies of each sideboard effect allows you a lot of consistency, as long as you can survive the early game, which is why I have been leaning hard on Path to Exile.
There are some effects that can't be creature-ized (RIP, 1 mana removal) and I don't think there's a tutorable late-game control deck killer in white comparable to Pia/Kiran. But I'd be very interested if someone found one.
I find 3x Thalia, GoT to be my personal max. Mainly due to the weird phenomenon of running 4 = I draw them all at once.Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
For revoker, that card is either 1) amazing or 2) lackluster. It's become such a boom-or-bust card IMO. Very matchup/bracket dependent. I would still be inclined to run a few with vial but I could be convinced he's being outclassed. Again, this is my perspective. I find Revoker to be meh against URx delver decks, 50-50 against TNN and Lands.dec (sequence dependent I'll say), stronger against Shardless, and optimal against Miracles or the mirror.
Finn, what's your opinion of running maindeck Canonists? I think for the current meta I'd be happier seeing them game 1 and boarding into a pair of Revoker if warranted. This feeling compounds if Prelate is the real deal.
I'd rather slow the game down with Thalia 1.0 and Canonist Early (so strong against anything blue or combo). Thalia 2.0 continues the crawl. Prelate disables the impending spell capable of 2-for-1-ing you.
2cc: Disable Punishing Fires, Decay, Golgari Charm, ZP, Counterbalance, Burning Wish, Infernal, Animate Dead
3cc: Toxic D, Council's J, Show and Tell
4cc: Massacre, Jace TMS, Wrath effects, Sneak Attack, Dread Return
5cc: Ad Naus
6cc: Terminus
Mistveil Plains is a Plains as well, so it doesn't help playing around Massacre. If you want to play around Massacre (which makes you vulnerable to Blood Moon and less likely to play Magus of the Moon) here are some:Quote:
Originally Posted by DarthVicious
- Sungrass Prairie
- Windbrisk Heights
- Eiganjo Castle
- Painlands
- Filterlands (Fetid Heath etc.)
- Horzion Canopy
- Flagestone of Trokair
If you play with Mox Diamon you could also play Riftstone Portal.
I agree more Caverns should be fine, since we are going to play more humans and cutting cards with double white like Serra Avenger and Brimaz. Maybe even 4 are worth considering if you want to splash cards like Magus of the Moon or Orzhov Pontiff.Quote:
Originally Posted by iatee
I am relatively new to this deck, so I don't have the same amount of experience like you. But I had the experience with Thalia that her first strike is pretty important. It's awesome with Jitte and helps against deathtouch creatures like Baleful Strix.
Replying to Finn, and stating mho:
-How good/necessary is Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, really? Do we NEED 4? I have had games where one was stuck in my hand from time to time.
Yes, we need four. You can always board it out if a particular MU allows for that. But in the default case (in today's meta - this might change when 60% of the legacy populace switch to D&T), I want a Thalia in my starting 7, and that usually requires 4 copies.
-Could Revoker be good as a singleton?
Yes. I used to run a singleton as a tutor target in Imperial, and a Relic-Warder for stuff like Sylvan Library. That split should be able to deal with most of the nasty things you'll have to deal with.
-Does the sideoard start to look like a creature collection now? I feel that this is a particularly strong direction to go.
Yes, it will. Or at least my Imperial SB does - there's stuff like Faerie Macabre that you'll want to run now, for instance.
-Should we go to 24 lands to support the new direction? A single Ancient Tomb or Chrome Mox could be substantial.
As I personally don't believe in the mana-acceleration path some people are taking the deck into, I cannot really comment on that.
Also, considering the inevitable uptick in Massacre appearing in sideboards, we really have to consider Flagstones of Trokair again.
Yes, that's probably true. Also, the most recent Gideon (with its +1/+1 emblem) might become more important.
Non-creature Sideboard Staple Options:
Rest in peace
Path to Exile
Pithing Needle
Manriki-Gusari (Going to be so important with all the new DnT floating around and with Council's Judgment probably out of the deck, it is super strong against Stoneblade\Deathblade decks.)
Gideon, Ally of Zendikar (Maybe he is not so important with the new cards? I love all three abilities and it is a monster against Miracles, but is it worth it?)
Mindbreak Trap (One thing we are weak to are decks that get around Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Ethersworn Canonist by winning by turn 2 on the play. Trap, along with Faerie Macabre, provide outs to a lot of that nonsense.)
Creature Winners:
Faerie Macabre
Ethersworn Canonist
Containment Priest
Banisher Priest
Leonin Relic-Warder
Adaptive Automaton or Veteran Armorer (Seems like something we need to consider as a choice, especially if we drop Gideon. I am pro-VA, not AA.)
Thalia, Heretic Cathar or Sanctum Prelate (depending on which you want main vs. side.)
Magus of the Moon (for those 3+ Cavern builds in Lands and Eldrazi-heavy metas.)
Phyrexian Revoker (because we could go down to 1-2 in the main and maybe you want this over Pithing Needle.)
Against Massacre decks, particularly Storm, it's probably best to try to put out Thalia+Karakas or a vial. Then just don't extend too much until you can name "4" with Sanctum Prelate. Because Massacre is a sorcery and we'll have redunancy with Recruiter, I don't see Massacre being too much of a problem. It seems it will be easy to play around with Conspiracy's release. Also, Prelate on 4 shuts out Jace and Tendrils, so that might just be a really good number in a lot of MU's. The downside to this play would be opening yourself up to Abrupt Decay, Bolt, or Sudden Shock into Massacre, and they can still cast their small spells.
Why are people suddenly panicking about Massacre? Reducing the basic land count doesn't come for free.
As for the numbers @Finn:
- Depending on the Recruiter count, I wouldn't drop below 3 copies of Thalia, GoT. Maybe 4 is correct.
- I think 2 Revokers with Recruiter are fine.
- A creature silver bullet SB doesn't sound too bad, but we mustn't forget that Recruiter slows us down.
- I'm all for acceleration in some kind of form.
We should go through the numbers how many humans we actually want to run and thus, how many Cavern makes sense. StP, SFM and Flickerwisp still demand white mana, and they're all important key cards that can't be simply brushed aside.
A don't think that a few duals (maybe fetches) and a Magus of the Moon in the 75 as tutor target is out of question.
I do like the idea of Mistveil Plains, as we can recycle destroyed/countered equipment and silver bullets much easier now. Whether or not it's worth the CitP is another question. Being able to get it with fetchlands is noteworthy.
And they're the easier case, because (1) Vial and (2) we could always name Elemental or Artificer on Cavern in a pinch. StP, Rest in Peace, Council's Judgment, etc. are much harder to cast with a grip full of Caverns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Also, gotta say ETB tapped is the exact opposite of the mana acceleration that we're considering, not to mention that all nonbasics ETB tapped if they have a Heretic Cathar on their side.
In heavy DnT metas, people will just play 2-3 dread of nights. Massacre can be played around and is easily beaten.
Source: live in a heavy dnt meta.
Imho people should test lists with 4x Recruiter and as many 1-of tutor targets as possible (even if the list goes way beyond 60 cards), just to figure out what is actually tutored for regularly and what is just dead weight.
That should be our starting point. From there, we can slowly shave excess cards or increase the number of cards we want even without tutoring. Sample list:
Maindeck: 69 cards
4x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
12x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
4x Mother of Runes
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4x Flickerwisp
4x Recruiter of the Guard
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Banisher Priest
1x Mangara of Corondor
1x Sanctum Prelate
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Stonecloaker
1x Fiendslayer Paladin
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Swords to Plowshares
SB: 17 cards
2x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Path to Exile
2x Council's Judgment
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Leonin Relic-Warder
1x Veteran Armorer
Forgot who said it, but there's the conventional wisdom that you should swing the pendulum really far when testing out a new card. That way you know for sure if 4 is too many, and can rein it back from there. So yeah, makes sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
While it makes sense playing 4 to begin with, I don't think it's a good idea to test 69 card decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirbysdl
I would build the deck as you desire and leave three "Blank" cards in the deck. In testing you can turn those cards into what would be best at the time in the situation and write them down. The reason for that fetch and how effective it was. Better than a 69 card pile.
When testing with new cards, I actually leave one outside of my deck, then I can "Draw" it at any time. Sometimes my testing partner will force the draw too when she knows it's a bad time for the card. Basically we just call out "Drawing X this turn" and replace the draw. Let's you see it in all kinds of situations as you wish.
At 69 cards, you definitely affect the % of drawing any particular card, even if it does serve the purpose of helping you figure out what you want and don't want, you'd have to play a lot more games to figure that out (in addition to playing with a different, albeit similar, manabase)
Thalia is probably the best card in the deck and the cornerstone of our mana denial plan. Let's not forget that while testing new cards. I would trim one of literally every other card in the deck before Thalia. Many of our builds are going to be decreasing the number of two drops as is, and trimming Thalia certainly isn't going to help with our curve.
While I agree Thalia, GoT amazing, the new Thalia HC + upcoming white cards potentially change the paradigm. You could theoretically deny the opponent from playing anything without Thalia, GoT in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Medea_
Between wasteland, ports, Thalia HC, and Prelate you effectively punish players for running fetches and duals + disable them from playing spells of X converted mana cost. You can supplement this plan with Recruiter to tutor for any missing hatebear, Revoker (disable the opponent from using any relevant card), Flickerwisp tricks (make their fetches/duals re-enter play tapped or "combo" to re-use Recruiter), SFM for beats, and Mom for protection. Your flex choices become the other 2cc and 3cc bears that fill needed denial, meta, or beatdown roles. I mentioned it before --- there are a plethora of card options that will pretty much work. The list from @Barook demonstrates what I'm talking about. Any of those 1x bullets are okay to run because at this point in Magic, we have more solid choices that do the job than we have open slots. To find a catch-all or "stock" list using the upcoming white cards is more gameplan and preference dependent.
Thalia is one of the core cards of the deck, but combo has been a shrinking % of the metagame (first thanks to Eldrazi and now it's in even worse shape with Prelate) and decks like the mirror (where she's bad) are going to be a growing % of the metagame. She dies to basically all DnT hate - which is going to be appearing in higher quantities. Playing Imperial, I found myself sideboarding out Thalias more and more over time against fair decks - dies to hate, drawing multiples is card disadvantage, her effect loses value over time and gets worse for me if I'm boarding into removal. I don't think we're at a spot yet where 3 Thalias makes sense, but I could see it in the future. Playing a wider variety of 2 drops (e.g. 3 Thalia, 1 Spirit, 1 Relic Warder, 1 Ethersworn, 2 Revoker) still gives you a lot of t2 plays while also giving you a better maindeck tutor package.
Anyway, the best card in the deck is not Thalia but Aether Vial - which is another reason why testing with 69 cards makes no sense, since you're gonna have fewer Vial games.
Honestly I think the biggest question right now is how many Prelates can be squeezed into the main. I am pretty sure once people start testing it, the answer isn't going to be 1. The card is meta-warping.
This list has 27 lands. -2 cavern - 2 plains - 1 flickerwisp -1 revoker gets us back down to 61 while IMO sacrificing almost nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook