Can you post your full list? I am interested.
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Can you post your full list? I am interested.
To add something to your discussion of the card, a lot of people miss that Cosi's Trickster actually gets two +1/+1 counter fora single Green Sun's Zenith. That's mostly super cute but good to know.
Yea, but it still does not make it useful. Compare it to the other 1 drop and its just kind of... I don't know, redundant. Ok it can get big, but if it is not in your opener than so what. Its like like you can Vial it is, sac it and smile as you have just either Dazed someone or wiped out their Bridges. I just feel like it is a weak card that looks strong.
Sure:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
4 Phantasmal Image
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Thassa, God of the Sea
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Aether Vial
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island
Let me explain some things. I have focused my lists on beating things that would beat us. The main troubles I have always found for Merfolks are Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Mother of Runes, Jitte, Batterskull, annoying flying creatures like Delver, Flickerwisp or Clique... and decks with a lot of removal like StP, Punishing Fire, Abrupt...
Nemesis beats almost ALL of these cards. But one Nemesis alone in the battlefield doesn't do anything, even with 2 lords you can't stabilize the game if the oponent has a Tarmogoyf and a Batterskull, that's obvious. 2 Nemesis is really diferent scenario, they can attack and block and the same time. They kill Goyfs and Batterskulls (Yes, having 3 lords and blocking also kills those cards, but then is when your opponent Abrupts one and you are left with a 2/2 and a huge creature on the other side)
That's why I believe 4 TNN and 4 Images should be the core of the deck. Apart from that function Image is really powerfull card. Can copy fatties (So our Reanimator/Sneak attack match up stills ok. Also Marit Lage is starting to appear nowadays), and solves other problems like the annoying flying creatures I said.
Reejerey is slow. Even the 2 mana lords aren't so impressive, 3 mana is just to much. That card is not tempo, it's just the opposite. Also it forces us to keep at least a Merfolk in hand to get some value.
I have to admit sometimes I miss more lords and tribal cohesion, but I don't think Reejerey makes the cut.
Dismembers are a meta choice, however they are useful against everything but combo, which I think it's already a good matchup.
Thassa is overrall a good card. This is one of the decks in whics scrying it's probably better. Our topdecks are horrible: Silvergill, Cursecatcher, FOW (most of the time), Daze, Vial, Island, Island, Island... It's also an extra TNN for blocking purposes, and reaching and keeping devotion is easy with 4 TNN and Images.
About cavern...
Do you frequently get your fishes countered? If you often get countered, what is the kind of counters your opponents used?
Cosi's Trickster is just another Bloodhall Ooze. Have be seen some Modern play, but too "situational" in Legacy, and a dead topdeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by BVB09
I like 1-2 Cavern of Souls; but it's meta dependant. My meta sees a lot of Blade Control style decks so they work for me.
Unlike BVB09, I don't want to see 4x TNN at this point in my deck. Yes it is good, real good; but if I were to play TNN then I think Umezawa's Jitte maindeck instead of Dismember would be my way to go for stabilization vs those troublesome items he mentioned. I have tried 3-3 split with TNN and Reejerrey and the Reejerey gets weaker that is for sure; but it also still allows for those blow out plays vs non-blue decks so I am sticking with Reejerey X3 for now.
PS -- Echoing Truth is also good if your finding Dismember too Life loss intensive but again it's meta dependant so in a Larger world you need to cover more bases.
I agree with Reejery being slow. I found he was the card I wanted the least. However - at the same time, I've played with Phantasmal Images and sometimes I just really want another Lord, and I can't get another lord because without him, we've only got 8 in our toolbox and 8 lords disappear to removal heavy decks - fast. And when that happens, we kind of run out of steam, because cursecatcher and silvergill are made good by the lords. Without them, 8 of our cards is kind of meh. So I would do this:
3 Phantasmal Image
3 True-Name Nemesis
4 Curcecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Reejery
2 Jitte
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Aether Vial
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
13 Island
Spell Pierces I find are necessary in the combo/control match-ups, and having less counterspells than this feels bad. Otherwise, you could remove 2 spell pierces and put in 2 Thassa instead. I must admit, I really do like her scry, but I suspect she often won't be a creature.
Mutavault > Wasteland for me is a meta choice. It helps me deal with my always-going-to-be affinity and goblins match-up since they have pro-blue creatures. I also know there will be control, and it hoses control.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVB09
As I've said before and now I see that some of you agree with me. TNN as a 4 of is awkward because you pull lords to put him in. He is a great card, but he ruins a lot of the synergy with the deck when as a 4 of. 2-3 is the right number because we don't want to see too many of him vs lords. We want to see him vs removal heavy decks and not against anything else, but he is strictly slower than the lord plan. Most decks with blue/black play sweepers anyway, so the point is basically moot there. In my opinion I'd rather run image as a 3 of and keep TNN as a 2 of.
I agree, he slows down my gameplan and unless it is a particular deck I am playing against I am usually hoping to top deck another lord. Looking at my above list, what do you think about going from 3 to 2 Spell Pierce and playing another Reejery instead? Against combo I want to have a good shot at a win in turn 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
It seems that the biggest evolution this deck is going through, is getting rid of the Standstills as a response to the growing midrange and creature based strategies in the meta. I know I could play better performing decks, but Merfolk is a low cost, flexible deck that I can own all the pieces of, so I am keen to make it work and worthy of a local tournament top 4!
Merfolk is a very good deck to bring into an unknown meta! I would agree with that. I think that in a meta filled with combo your list would be fine, but if you expect creature/midrange the spell pierces would do better in the side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Windmill
+1 Reejery
-1 Spell Pierce
Approved. I also feel that Jitte in the main is along the lines of TNN, but worse. It needs to be equiped and needs to do damage to work, so in that sense also slows us down. In addition they can timewalk you if they remove your creature in response to your equip. So I feel that Jitte goes into lists that run TNN as a 4 of. Very aggressive, but more midrange lists.
I could also recommend:
-2 Jitte
+1 Reejery
+1 Spell Pierce/Daze
I also wanted to point out that TNN is AWFUL in the mirror. As standstill was as well.
Which decks is TNN good against right now?
P.S.: I don't agree with Master of Waves. He is strictly win more. He doesn't save you from bad situations as TNN does. He is weak and potentially only comes in with 1 elemental creature.
I played with the list I posted a few days ago in a 25-30 people tournament.
UG Infect 0-2
Punishing Jund 2-0
Berserk Stompy 2-1
Bant 2-1
UGR Delver 1-2
Nothing impressive, but I'm happy with how the deck played.
I lost the first round because I didn't know how to play against that deck, it caught me by surprise and I didn't have much removal.
Dismember was good but 4 life was too much... However I don't like Echoing Truth, it's card disadvantage and costs one more.
Thassa gave me a lot of games, I always wanted to draw her.
You played with a 4 TNN ｌｉｓｔ？Quote:
Originally Posted by BVB09
Ｄｏｎ＇ｔ Ｔｈａｓｓａ ａｎｄ ＴＮＮ ｆｉｇｈｔ ｆｏｒ ｔｈｅ ｓａｍｅ ｓｌｏｔ？
In fact I played with a 8 TNN list. TNN + Image is unbeatable for fair decks. I think I won 90% of my games with TNN. I just lose a match where TNN resolved, because opponent had a Batterskull which attached to his TNN (Bant).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru3z3rox
And maybe they fight for the same slots, but the truth is that they complement each other perfectly, being very easy to keep devotion at 5. Also the Scry 1 is amazing, and making creatures unblockeable also helps.
Thassa seems win-more. If you have 5 devotion, your're probably in a winning boardstate anyway. And in Legacy, Islandwalk pretty much will be in effect at all times, so Thassa's unblockable ability seems redundant. Thassa could be anything else and be better for Merfolk.
The natural substitute would be Reejerey. If you don't have many creatures when you cast him he's worth nothing: 2/2 for 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
And if you cast him when having some creatures it's the same as Thassa, but not giving the ability to Scry.Thassa avoids most of the removal and blocks Tarmogoyf and Batterkull.
What would you play in those slots instead?
Standstill. Spell Pierce. Heck, I'd even want Master of Waves or Kira before I consider stuff like Thassa.
This is my first post on The Source. So hi to all of you merfolk players and everyone else.
Though I am not experienced and made plenty of misplays, I have some thoughts from a local event earlier.
I tried a list with ponders rather than standstill - I believe my 60 was nearly identical to the most recent SCG top 8 merfolk list. Ponder performed very solidly, but I wish it were standstill since the deck is really lacking in card advantage aside from Silvergill Adept.
I played against stoneforge mystic decks the first two rounds - first UWR delver and then esper stoneblade. Batterskull is a card and can race if they have removal. StP in response to image is backbreaking if you only have one target. Stoneblade was running a maindeck sword of fire and ice, and that was awful to play against. Pro blue, card advantage, and it kills your merfolk. Then I had the pleasure of playing against goblins, which is a pretty terrible matchup.
I'll be bringing the standstill list to SCG Oakland in any case, and we'll see how that goes. I do think I was on the wrong side of variance, but it seems like merfolk has a bunch of roughly even matchups and then some really unfavorable ones (most nonblue, noncombo decks).
Yep. When a merfolk player could devote Thassa into a creature, usually he is already have a good board situation. Obvious a win-more card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Thassa does not die to Decay...but other merfolks do. It is not difficult for most "fair" deck players,to turn her into a super luxury, undestructible, Mythic rare...Crystal ball.
On another topic, has anybody had success with a black splash? I've never tried it.
Mainly for Perish and maybe Enginereed Plage (against TNN naming Rouge?) and Virtue's Ruin?
In any case, I only own 2 Underground seas, would it be enough?
Thanks :)