Ooze is legit. He's slower, sure, but he's a tank and has uses against Deathrite and Goyf decks as well, in addition to P. Fire.
-Matt
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Ooze is legit. He's slower, sure, but he's a tank and has uses against Deathrite and Goyf decks as well, in addition to P. Fire.
-Matt
Gotcha, ooze added as grave hate #2. Is that enough or should I have 3+? I always figured deathrite.in the main augmented by 2 in the board seemed like enough.
I mean, you're not going to beat Tin Fins or Manaless everytime, but you should be fine for > 90% of matchups where you want the hate.
-Matt
I've been playing junk exclusively for 2 years now, though I jumped on nic fit when treasure cruise had it's reign.
Since the justice day (B&R announcement) I've been back on the grind and have been rocking this deck with small variations each week in my Thursday night legacy city store in Nagoya, Japan.
It's only 3 rounds, but things are getting pretty hot because of GP Kyoto on the horizon.
Over 5 weeks, I'm currently 13-2. Which is a pretty dumb record. However, combo is underrepresented at my store (it exists just not as much as you would expect) so take that awesomeness with a pinch of salt. In usually crushing delver variants, miracles, jund, maverick, burn, mono black and UWR midrange. Storm lands show n tell and reanimator show up occasionally.
Here's list I played yesterday for another 3-0 (beating standstill, punishing jund and rug delver)
4 Verd
3 Marsh
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savanah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Treetop village
1 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
23
3 Thoughtsieze
2 Cabal Therapy
2 inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to plowshares
4 abrupt decay
2 liliana
4 shaman
4 goyf
3 bob
1 library
2 ling souls
3 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
37
2 Surgical ext
2 pithing needle
2 canonist
2 containment priest
2 gaddock teeg
2 siege rhino
1 Eng Exp
1 Eng Plague
1 Deed
15
I basically tried to stream line the deck to the minimal CMC and minimal color requirements possible, so I'd be extremely active in the first 2 turns, and able to play man lands like treetop (MVP by a long way! The amount of times I've beat a midrange or control deck with man lands is silly, let alone with a SoFaI)
So I originally didnt have liliana, but found she was a necessary evil when I was getting beat down by TNN, or my main deck rhinos was doing nothing against combo.
Also taken a trick from blue decks, in that I'm running my versatile combo hate main deck (FoW for them, discard for us). Like you don't want it against non combo decks so much but it still always does something. And then you can side out copies for stronger cards against non combo.
As much as I love rhino (when he was spoiled I swore he would see play in all formats but vintage and my friends called me crazy)I just don't need him to win at all, the man lands get it down enough. So I'm thinkkng of cutting them for the second library and 1 more combo hate card (suggestions?).
Critiques, pl0x
Your deck is only 3-4 cards different from my list (maindeck.) I've always swore by treetop but I haven't seen 2 copies ever. I like it. How does factory work for you? Know it takes the place of wasteland #4 but I always figured on playing 4 factory or none, just because of the boost ability.
Edit: I play 3 liliana, 2 hymn, 4 sieze, 1 inquisition and only 22 lands where you play 2 liliana, 3 seize, 2 therapy, 2 inquisition, and a 23rd land. I also have relegated sofi to the board in favor of the 4th confidant.
Hey Mr. Safety! That's cool.
Basically I'm coming from the other direction, yes 4 factory is sweet. But I need the wasteland for the additional disruption against combo and utility lands. So I'm not going to run 4, so why 1?
Well I would run 3 treetop if I could! But come into play tapped is a real cost.. So I'm trying one as a factory, it's cheaper to activate and equip too. It also still blocks and kills a nimble mongoose, which is what I really expect from my man lands. I don't need it to be any bigger than that, so one is fine.
I like hymn a lot.. But double black is a pain, and 2 mana can just be too slow.
I feel strongly on 23 lands, 22 is too greedy :P
And I love SoFaI, it's the best thing to get when you have man lands, I definitely prefer it over a bob. It's very important as insurance agains true name, JTMS and punishing fire.
What does your sideboard look like? Apologies if you have recently posted it, I'll go look for it.
Siege Rhino does some excellent work in Nic Fit, but perhaps, you might be correct in saying he might not do enough here. However, Liliana is not TNN-removal guaranteed, and the 4/5 trample will get through even if they have another creature online.
I'm still bouncing around on the last 6-8 slots, but everyone's core is the same. I noticed a few Japanese lists for Junk were doing well, turns out, it was you, maybe. Congrats!
-Matt
Haha, I doubt those lists were mine, but thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
With 4 StP decay and discard it's likely you can engineer the situation so it's their only creature or they top deck it in empty board etc.
It's not just about TNN though, the constant ticking up against combo is worth it.
I keep swining back and forth, next week he'll be main deck again no doubt.
Played the following list at a local tournament. Ended 2-2
Lost to Grixis Delver and to UWR Patriot. Got a free win and won against MUD.
I won the first match every time but lost the second and the third match. I often had problems with the mana base. Didnt draw enough mana to go off or couldnt draw into a removal. Game 2 against UWR Patriot i get really hard screwed with wasteland.
All in all i was really happy with this deck. It was a last minute creation.^^ Had no time to test it.
4x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
1x Marsh Flats
2x Forest
2x Bayou
1x Plains
2x Swamp
1x Scrubland
1x Savanah
1x Godless Shrine
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tasigur, the golden Fang
4x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Abrupt Decay
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa’s Jitte
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sylvan Library
Currently:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
1x surgical extraction
1x scavenging ooze
2x tidehollow sculler
1x thalia, guardian of thraben
1x gaddock teeg
2x kor firewalker
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
1x sword of fire and ice
1x zealous persecution
2x choke
1x pithing needle
Edit: I play an urborg to help accommodate the double black spells (hymn, liliana).
SDEMATT, you played with meddling Mage in the side before, how was your experience with him? Is one dual land, 8 fetches and 4 shamans plenty to cast him right? Did you run 2, 3 or 4? Alongside or instead of teeg?
Why did you drop him?
I've been looking for more catch all answers to combo in my sideboard, the only card that always comes in is extraction for me, but running 4 of them seems dumb, so I have 2 slots left (or 4 if I replace the teegs, fetching an underground sea means you can't cast both off of 2 land, and tropical island seems like the wrong choice)
I've got some tech that I'll post after class, and I'll answer your question. All you have to do is wait 5 hours :P
-Matt
So my Meddling build was:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
1 Underground Sea
1 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 3 Meddling Mage
SB: 3 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
but I think I'm going to try the following:
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
3 Siege Rhino
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Taiga
SB: 2 Extirpate
The list plays a Taiga in the side for Slaughter Games. I've also cut EE to put in Extirpate in the side since Lands is seeing a ton of play.
Why Slaughter Games? Games is exceptionally good at killing combo decks and control decks, which is where this deck does have problems. Meddling Mage can be bounced or removed very easily, even if not expected. Games does a good job at killing Miracles by neutering Jace or the likely call might be Entreat. Explosives wasn't doing a ton of work since it was generally used against Delver, but with Carpet now, the Delver matchup is actually quite okay.
Extirpate is a bit better than Surgical because I want it for Loam. We're not bad against Lands, so if you didn't want to run this, this is easily more Elves/midrange hate or even more discard, Teegs, etc.
I've still cut Liliana since I still want to see how far Rhino can go.
-Matt
Haha, we're both exploring that sideboard spot
I don't like games at all :P you have to waste a sideboard slot for it, it's tempo negative and costs 4 mana. If I've made it to 4 mana alive against combo, I feel like I'm already winning!
This is my next iteration I'll be trying tomorrow night. I maybe playing a gpt this weekend as well.
4 Verd Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh flats
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Bayou
1 Savanah
2 Scrubland
2 Treetop
4 Wasteland
22
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
4 Thoughtsieze
3 IoK
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
38
60
2 Surgical
2 containment priest
2 canonist
2 teeg
3 Thalia
2 pithing needle
2 deed
Lowered the curve, shaved a land and minimized colour requirements to get as much early game as possible, since once we are are in the mid or late game, we tend to dominate.
Think treetop village is the rhino you're looking for ;)
Thalia is my new catch all card I'm trying, idea being she slows down combo enough to make sure I hitore discard and hate bears. She's also very relevant against delver.
-4 thoughtsieze, -1 library +3 Thalia +2 deed is pretty sweet.
Of note, I tried tasigur over the weekend and did not like him at all :/
I saw him multiple times and he was just a more difficult to cast Tarmogoyf.
Games are for different matchups. It has side benefit to Storm combo, but does more duty against Miracles (your primary contender), 43 lands, and if fast enough, damage against OmniTell, Storm, and others. Thalia is doing different work, mainly moreso against Combo. Thalia is bad against Miracles and 43 lands, for example.
I also wouldn't cut Sylvan against Delver. I'd rather go to 61 with your list.
I think in the metagame, Miracles and Lands are more prevalent than ANT, making Slaughter Games at least worth trying. TES is too fast with (generally) to interact with, since they can easily go off turn 1 before discard or Thalia.
-Matt
Good to see you're on the Taiga/Slaughter Games train :cool:
I might give your latest build a spin. I miss Sylvan Library way too much, and these 3 FBB Libraries I have deserve to be played, not sitting in a box.
2 Bobs, 4 SFM looks weird to me...but I suppose you have your reasons. Sylvan is better in a lot of cases.
There's still enough Bolts in the format. Plus, when running 3 Rhino, it can get awkward on life totals. Sure, draining cancels them out if he resolves, but you're in an awkward spot if he doesn't. Could also go 2 Rhino 3 Bob.
-Matt
You're right on lands taking an upswing, it's a pretty annoying deck to play against, and why I moved to 4 wastelands.
What do you name against them? Life from the loam? I prefer surgical or extirpate since u can take out maze of ith or stage etcetc
I find that our miracles match up is fine. And the 2 needles, teegs and deeds is more than enough to deal with them.
Usually taking out 4 StP and 2 IoK.
Some miracles have been siding in mentor against me recently, but with jitte decay and deed, I dnt think that's as effective as they would think. Though of note, it is threat that can sneak under slaughter games, so watch out for that.
I guess I'd cut a bob then if you think library is better. He can't block well and life loss is annoying.
But yea, try them, who knows, might catapult the deck to tier 1 :P
Could you elaborate which combo decks Slaughter Games is particularly effective against/what you would name?Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
I feel like most good combo decks like Elves and Storm are pretty resilient to the effect. I also fear its too slow against these types of decks.
I meant moreso like OmniTell or Food Chain. I think it's a bit slow against ANT unless you're starting into disruption.
Decks I wouldn't bring it in against:
Elves
Midrange decks
Delver
Dredge
Might bring it in against (if I have a lot to bring out):
Storm - Infernal Tutor
Sneak and Show - Show and Tell
Bring it in against:
Miracles - Jace/Entreat
43 Lands - Life from the Loam
OmniTell - Cunning Wish/Enter the Infinite
Food Chain - Misthollow or Food Chain
It is obviously at its best against Miracles. EE was the slot beforehand, and that was basically coming in against Miracles to stop Entreat, and I haven't killed a Jace in a while. I guess I lose some Dredge points since I can't kill zombies, but whatever.
I'm not saying this slot is the best, but I want to try it and see how it goes :)
I think the core of these sideboard cards, for me, will stay as long as the other decks are popular:
2 Krosan Grip - Stoneblade, Miracles, Counter-Top, Enchantress, Blood Moon/Painter
2 Zealous Persecution - True Name Nemesis, Elves, tokens
2 Carpet of Flowers - Blue Decks
2 Pithing Needle - Sneak Attack, Top, Painter, etc. etc.
2 Gaddock Teeg - Combo, Miracles
Who knows about the other 5 slots? Each of these selections covers a lot of ground, but we're missing out a bit on graveyard hate/SnT hate/Combo hate since those decks don't seem too popular at the moment.
-Matt