ANT has more lands in general, though. You shouldn't read too much into the fact that ANT might have as many as 2 non-blue producing lands when their builds have as many blue-producers as we have total lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
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ANT has more lands in general, though. You shouldn't read too much into the fact that ANT might have as many as 2 non-blue producing lands when their builds have as many blue-producers as we have total lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
I've used 8 Fetch, 2 Sea, 1 Volc, 1 Bad, 1 Island with a SB Tropical Island for a long while now and have been fairly happy with it, ideally going Island, cantrip. Badlands, discard and then going off towards T3, but the problem is that it can be a bit slow in a meta where you have to race hate bears pretty regularly. I kind of self justifed that by having Thoughtseize instead of Duress and a single land to fetch and enable Massacre via Burning Wish tho', think you can kind of leave it up to play style as to whether or not you prefer lands that let you dig over disrupt and go off because you fetch strictly for blue except for Badlands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
Even in a Wasteland meta, I'm not sure how much 8 fetch, 2 sea, 1 volc, 1 island, 1 swamp and 1 sb bayou matters that much as far as having only 1 wastable red source, naturally drawing Volc doesn't happen that often and a lot of the time I find Rite of Flame goes right on Chrome Mox any way.
ANT only runs Badlands if their board is heavy on red and a Bayou if it is heavy on green. Badlands in TES is a recurring topic, but it's a card which creates awkwards land configurations for TES with only 13 lands as Island+Badlands or Swamp+Badlands or Tropical+Badlands never provide the following two core requirements at the same time:Quote:
Originally Posted by Izor
1) produce red, blue and black mana off two lands
2) provide red and black mana during the combo turn off two lands
The Island is also a card which does not fulfills the said requirements and that was the reason I was on the fence about that, in case you wonder at this point.
Hi boys!,
the other day I played a brief torunament with TES, well I took it easy, and was able to handle a long game vs miracles which made me very happy!
I've looked at the last pages and was impressed the direction the deck is taking... well I feel lucky that I'm taking my own direction... of course sometimes I ask for opinion as vs miracles - solved! now I think my 75 are just perfect, maybe I put in a Bribery, but I'm very happy!
What I don't understand is the following:
the exact meta that now exists is the exact meta that existed before T.Cruise, therefore why the deck is changing so much (2 basics 2 C.Mox)? to handle Tempo? the 'old' deck with gemstones was already prepared for these archetypes...
the list is now more and more similar to the Timo Schuneman list..., playing so many fetches why you do not include any number of C.Ritual?
@Final Fortune:
long time I don't hear from you! nice to have your opinion again!
which list are you currently running?
which is your opinion from the last changes - better say - last Bryant changes?
A note:
my next testing card will be Autumn's Veil! I will just replace the xantids for this and see how much the RUG and Miracles match ups are improved as I really never been scared of Sneak variants... for those inteerested I'll let you know, I see the card as a silence that can be played by green.
You ask why the deck doesn't jump back to it's Summer 2013 configuration after Treasure Cruise is gone? Because Gemstone was a logic conclusion of running Silences and Silences were bad since Fall/Winter 2013 and this resulted into a more or less fast cutting of Rainbow lands and their replacement of a Dual/Fetch manabase. The fall of Gemstone has nothing to do with Cruise or the metagame shifts this year, but with the rise of hate-angle-duality in Fall 2013, the Position of the EtW Route currently and the rise of Miracles. We also added a land, changed/cutted SB Engines etc. on top of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Claiming the meta just reverted back to the date we played Silences and Rainbows is frustratingly false. The fact that tempo and Wasteland is returning to the metagame and the fact that we cutted down colors to UBrg let Bryant Ponder about the option to include Basics and play the ANT-way against those decks just with the option for EtW in exchange of running weaker Rituals. Which brings me to Timo's TNT. We would run Cabal Rituals if we a) would want to rely on the graveyard and b) would not run fundamental playlines which require several red mana. It makes me kinda sad having to point that out time and time again. Would WotC print useful Black/Blue SB engines for us, we could run Cabal Rituals and call it a day, but that's not the case. Fetches replaced Gemstones for improved card- & manaselection and not to durdle with Cabal Rituals. Making TC and Cabals considerable was nothing more than a sideeffect.
not that false - see these 4 examples:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14608&iddeck=107984
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14684&iddeck=108605
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14351&iddeck=105869
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14185&iddeck=104454
from july 2014 until september 2014
these 4 archetypes do not play silences and still run gemstones.
I meant playing gemstones and duress - therapys disruption package, not silence.
there was a timeframe in which gemstones and duress - therapies were played - I claim to revert to this period
Is one of the examples your own here? Just curious because of Bribery + DimRet. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Get me right: even at the time of those tournaments I was already convinced Gemstones (and argued here for that) are not required but lackluster in longer games which are inevitable postboard against control and Aggro-control, this however does not imply that the deck is unable to take down a tournament running Gold-Lands (and possibly Silence). I just want to Highlight that we found ways to increase the mana-/cardselection without hurting the decks ability to go off T1/2 while also increasing the long-term stability and I see no reason to revert the lists back to a earlier Stadium of development.
P.S. The following two weeks I want to make another test-gauntlet with Basics to control if my first was correct or if I drew a wrong conclusion due to matchups and playstyle. Always question yourself is the Motto.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
well apart,
Intro:
I shared with you and others some time ago my feeling about the Timo list, an incredible feeling invaded my heart when played the deck after little tunning in a tournament it was really getting very close to a chess game - it just was amazing and also was demonstrated in a second tournament piloted by a friend which recognized he could have won the GP Paris with it finally made day 2 and 1nn position (he recognized also several misplays) - the tournament I played I made a 6-1 winning all flavours of blue decks and loosing uniquely with the boy that won in the finals - yes I won that tournament 10-1 was the core- just was incredible - the feeling that if you play properly the deck nobody can win you - this same feeling happened to me when playing DD and now after switching to EtW main and full discard package with TES.
the problem you argue agains TNT are 2 I believe:
a) the slow behaviour it takes agains hatebears as is just as slower as ANT and I need to agree
b) the inability to generate 2 red mana for b.w > EtW route and possible for PiF chaining , I can agree with the b.w. > EtW route as you even do not play EtW main, but the build plays 8 fetch 1 volcanic 1 badlands 4 petal 4 LED total 18 red sources therefore the for at least PiF chains are ok - note didn't include the I.t. > EtW route.
so finishing my analysis I don't think I will take out gemstones from TES never and neither Chrome moxen and likely D.R neither. I really think the deck is more compressed that way and also think the deck needs to be that way as this is its personality.
On the other hand I understand we need to adapt the deck to just win tournaments and this is what I've been tinkering about... just to build a good storm deck...
well, what I love from TNT is the puzzle box that the 3 B.Wishes offer and the stable mana base it has -enough stuff to start to win torunaments with it so a theoric build can be:
4 Cabal Ritual - could be RoF but this is just more powerfull and makes possible also the I.T. > EtW routes
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam
1 EtW
4 Scalding Tarn EDIT : depeding if playing bayou I'd play Bloodstined mire instead
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 tropical island - this could be bayou . initially was the C.Mox which for that tournament was the 2nd island still A.Decay didn't exist
//Sideboard
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 void snare
SB: 1 Grim Tutor
SB: 1 Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 3 A. Decay - I would play 4
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Ill-gotten Gains - this was used for speed for 2nd and 3rd game not sure if still has sense
SB: 1 PiF - in TNT I played this in base so the move to the side should be ok but I'm skeptical if we comply with the mana requirements...
SB: 3 Xantid
1 massacre
I remember I played 1 timespiral - I understand its non inclusion...
TNT build for reference:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=10493&iddeck=76528
well
- finally we play 4th b.w. and no PiF Tendrils in base - the problem I see is that you can not do B.W. > Grim tutor > PiF and win with that route but you can do still B.W. > Grim tutor to A.N.
- with this base you assume that A.N will not win in the same turn most of the times, but you equally win once A.N is resolved.
- you still have the same numbers of burning wishes than in TES not sure if they can be redundant in this build - but for sure you have now a complete toolbox. to handle maverick and taxes as example
- not sure how good the EtW will be but seems that we still have that fast path to victory as with Infernal you won't have mana problem
- combinations of engines for 2nd and 3rd games are genial as you can go back the PiF - Tendrils route and are all open.
Sacred spare time...
I have always regarded TNT as a variant of ANT which eschews Preordain and the main Grim Tutor (which I never really liked in ANT anyway) for 3 Burning Wishes in order to gain access to the toolbox pre- and postboard as well as a quick way to win with EtW out of the sideboard when you don't find an Infernal early.
Now, by taking out the Past-Tendrils package and adding the md EtW and the 4th Wish, doesn't TNT just become a worse version of TES? I probably shouldn't say worse, because its late game is probably improved due to Cabal Rits and the extra Lands over Moxen... But your win conditions/routes to victory are now identical to those in TES, but with:
- less speed due to Cabal Rit > Rite of Flame
- worse mana due to the absence of Rite of Flame (with EtW being a primary win con, which very often requires RR during yur combo turn)
- and most importantly, with a significantly weakened Ad Nauseam (which I assume to be your primary gameplan, like in TES) due to the absence of Moxen and CC2 Rituals over more CC1 Rituals.
The way I look at it, you're not adding Wish to an ANT deck any more (the advantages of which are obvious), but instead you're adding Lands and Cabal Ritual to a TES deck, and I honestly don't think that I'd weaken pretty much all of my primary game plans only to improve my late game a little. Your EtW route gets worse because you're slower (and EtW gets worse every turn you have to wait) and because you may not hit two Red mana (Turn 1 Rite->Rite->LED->Wish for EtW is a thing in TES, but impossible with your TNT list); and your Ad Nauseam gets worse for reasons stated above. So what am I missing? What makes that deck good?
The difference is twofold. First you gain increased cardselection for your early cantrips, especially if you find a Fetch in your Ponder/Brainstorm instead of a Gemstone. That is one hell of a difference. Second, if you infernal for additional cooies of Decays or the like (which I do too) you don't want to do this off Gemstones, because by turn three you have to decide how to spend your third mining counter. The serious problem occurs if your Second land gets wasted and your opponent simply can wait for you also losing your Gemstone Mine. This is not a position to be in during longer games and especially against tempo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
There is NO aggro matchup left in Legacy top decks afaik and this is the primary reason for all the decks changes over the last years, going away from the pure Belcher approach aggro decks fall victim, planning for longer games against blue and various angles of hate. TNTs Wishes had a pure toolbox use to handle hatebears and problematic permanents as well as delivering additional flips for Ad Nauseam which grant access to Tendrils for ONE red mana. This is different to TES which needs AT LEAST TWO red mana for PIF loops and EtW bursts off Wish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
You are not "ok with 1 or 2 lands" against Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/Thalia/etc. This isn't 2011/2012 where we blew out Zoo with City of Brass + Chrome Mox as our manabase. Thats what all the fus is about.
With "playstyle" I mean that I have to question my own aggressive playstyle causing issues with the Basics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Hi to all, I've been following this thread for a very long time, but never wrote anything do to a lack of legacy tournaments in my local area and my poor english. Since something have finally started to move around here (in terms of legacy) and language can be improved only by practice, I decided to post something.
Fun fact, I've originally planned to make a report about a tournament where I reached top 8 with T.E.S. but it was so boring, do to the lack knowledge I have with the deck, that I didn't bother to finish it. I can say that most of the losts were do to my mistakes, mainly because I miss played cards like Duress or Burning Wish, but this doesn't mean I can't share the good parts and thoughts!
So:
-Wining at 6 life with Ad Nauseam is awesome and not that hard.
-Throwing goblins at people is always my solution to any problem.
-I was arguing with someone about T.E.S. and ANT. He said something about more consistency or some stuff like that, I throwed goblins at him.
- I've never wished for an Infernal tutor, ever. But having 7 of them is better (on paper) that only 4, I guess.
-At first I was sceptical about basic lands, but I faced so many Wastelands that I was so glad to have them in my core.
-I do have the tendency of drawing every single crome mox in my deck all the time, so maybe two are better for me... I'll try with the 4 Infernal build next; However, they make Ad Nauseam so good.
-Past in flames is very odd for me; I find myself never wanting to wish for it, usually there are better targets all the times, but this is certainly do to my lack of experience.
In the end I would say that this deck is extremely strong and fun to play, and I hope to bring some interesting thoughts in the future. sorry for this lame presentation, but I had to introduce myself somehow
http://40.media.tumblr.com/8ed7a8666...j45no1_500.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Spam
The key to success with Basics:
http://i1166.photobucket.com/albums/...psjs8yy4jn.jpg
Hey guys, I need your help with some matchhups, especially against black / sth discard decks. Do I just have to aggressive mulligan to beat those decks? Or do I use pif? Regarding pif I never used it since I played the deck and am unsure when to side it in or if I should just wish for it or what I do with it in general. Can u enlighten me? :-D
I'm playing bryants md - empty + infernal. My sb is pretty open, I haven't settled on all cards, so if u can give me general advice or specific good cards against the bug decks, that would be great :-)
"aggressive mulligan" is a synonym for being greedy and hoping to find a nutty 6. Don't do that. Against discard, you drop your mana asap and play off the top of your decks with cantrips into Ad Nauseam. I personal have cornercases in which I indeed board PIF, but this one is none. You Wish for it if the situation favors it and you don't need to sideboard for Team America or whatever you are talking about here at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkreuz
I'm not going to write a manual for PIF once more. All you need to know is in the OP, articles or burried in the last year of posts.
Current list is updated in the OP.
Thx for the fast reply, sadly that doesn't help me much, but I think it just comes down to practice then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It's not that I dont know how to use PiF, just that I never felt like I had the cards to win with it. Therefore the sample cards in the OP dont help much. But thx anyway
guess what he meant was: instead of playing the normal game, relying on casting artifact mana sources on "combo turn", you drop them ASAP, so you can just cantrip (bs, ponder, gitaxian probe) into ad nauseam, and just win from there. also, you could draw burning wish, and just wish for past in flames, w/ enough ritual effects on the graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkreuz
hope i could clarify your doubts
The first part was clear, that isn't hard to understand, but still thanks for trying to explain it :) The second part with PiF wasnt that clear for me, so double thx for explaining it :DQuote:
Originally Posted by seilaquem
Today I made a 3-1 at locals with more or less stock list with basics.
2-1 bug delver
0-2 goldigger
2-0 patriot
2-1 rgbw jund+gw
Sided this:
2 tendrills
1 empty
1 pif
1 void snare
1 infernal
1 bayou
3 xantid
3 decay
2 pyroclasm
Played the extra tendrills because lately in my zone people tend to play cards like slaughter games. And so I can change empty for tendrills and still win. Also is good vs miracles and golddigger.
Was a metacall but not the worst. Because I played vs so a 4 color deck and duressed him and hit it the turn before It came to play.
Also letely I dont play vs miracles. Have played one time last weeks. Surgicals and may be chain of vapour could have done better job.
Pyroclasm where nice. Not having a wishable 0 mana removal in side worries me. But have still never wish for it. Also wished 2 times for pif, 0 for void snare, 1 for empty, 1 for infernal.