[Deck] The Rock

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

I don't really feel that White gives this deck anything it needs.

How do you feel about foregoing white entirely to ramp up the decks consistency and resiliency against Blood Moon and other nonbasic hate, something like this?

//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tombstalker or Dark Confidant

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize or Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Umezawa's Jitte

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I've thought the same thing before but splashing a color is almost free with DRS and a pile of fetchlands anyway. Adding 2 Bx duals to the list you posted leaves you with 4 basics, still a decent amount. White if nothing else provides valuable sideboard options in the form of permanent-based hate to complement your discard, which is quite valuable in my opinion. Not to mention good 1 mana removal in Plow (Disfigure is a card, but kinda meh) and threats like SFM, Souls, Knight, etc.

Also I don't think the "payoffs" of playing straight BG Rock (i.e. Phyrexian Obliterator) are good enough to justify it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphix

I've thought the same thing before but splashing a color is almost free with DRS and a pile of fetchlands anyway. Adding 2 Bx duals to the list you posted leaves you with 4 basics, still a decent amount. White if nothing else provides valuable sideboard options in the form of permanent-based hate to complement your discard, which is quite valuable in my opinion. Not to mention good 1 mana removal in Plow (Disfigure is a card, but kinda meh) and threats like SFM, Souls, Knight, etc.

Also I don't think the "payoffs" of playing straight BG Rock (i.e. Phyrexian Obliterator) are good enough to justify it.

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The main payoff of playing BG Rock is the ability to play lots of basics and thus resiliance to cards like Blood Moon, Price of Progress, Back to Basics, Wastelands and other nonbasic hate. Even with playing 3-4 basics, in a three color build, you will far more often want to grab a dual rather than a basic turn one leaving yourself more open to a blood moon, In addition, by playing more basics, you get more utility from your opponent's Veteran's Explorers, Path of Exiles and such.

It may not sound like much but an unexpected Blood Moon is DEVASTATING to Rock and sees play in main deck and sideboard in lots of matchups. Being able to ignore that more easily by playing a list like this is a significant bonus.

Deck Name: Su Black
// Lands (22)
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest

// Creatures (17)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Vampire Nighthawk

// Spells (21)
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Sensei's Divining Top

I updated the above list based on people's suggestions so far. Any additional suggestions would be much appreciated as well. I'm still debating Sylvan Library vs. Sensei's Divining Top so if you think one is better than the other for this deck, I would love to hear your input.

Another nice bonus of sticking with two colors is the ability to play a few Wasteland as well which is clutch in certain games.

And lastly, no matter how easy splashing a third color is, the two color version will always be more consistent. There will be games where you will screwed out of the third color that won't happen as often with a two color deck.

The resilience is worth more than what you're sacrificing by going this route because you're not actually losing out on anything. StP is simply redundent and unneeded in a deck that plays Decay, Liliana, Nighthawk and Deed, all of which offer a lot more flexibility than StP.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
0 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
0 Umezawa's Jitte
.

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I'm sorry, but I don't like your list. Your curve is way to high and without T1 deathrite will be slow as hell. Full playset of legendary Tasigurs, really? Why? Imagine you opponent have Karakas in play.
Did you already test it? I would cut some Tasigurs and Obliterators for Mox Diamonds and Loam maybe.

I play a the same list as that one, only difference is that I'm using Tombstalker instead of Tasguri until I get my play set of Tesguri.

The curve is perfect as is, this is rock, not suicide, it's fine if you don't dump our your whole hand by turn 3. You're fine playing what you need to without overextending then blowing everything up with Deed.

Obliterater is amazing and quite underestimated IMO.

I was also playing around with Dark Ritual for a while earlier and had a great experience with the card so I was considering putting a few back in to add some speed but it seems unnecessary at the moment.

If the legendary status of Tasuri is a problem, I would probably cut one for a Jitte or the fourth wasteland.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

...
//Lands
4 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Forest

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Phyrexian Obliterator
4 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
0 Gray Merchant of Asphodel

// Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Pernicious Deed
0 Umezawa's Jitte

Another nice bonus of sticking with two colors is the ability to play a few Wasteland as well which is clutch in certain games.

And lastly, no matter how easy splashing a third color is, the two color version will always be more consistent. There will be games where you will screwed out of the third color that won't happen as often with a two color deck.

The resilience is worth more than what you're sacrificing by going this route because you're not actually losing out on anything. StP is simply redundent and unneeded in a deck that plays Decay, Liliana, Nighthawk and Deed, all of which offer a lot more flexibility than StP.

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How has Nighthawk performed? Also, no love for Top or Library? If you're not going to play Bob I think some sort of card selection is necessary.

Have you considered playing straight BG in a Nic-Fit shell with Explorers, Therapy, etc.? That might be better suited to what you're trying to accomplish.

I used to play Nighthawk back in 2011 in Deadguy Ale leading up to GP Providence. The card wasn't bad at all, but mind you, Mental Misstep was legal in the format. He frequently traded with big dudes or stopped them from attacking. However, is he good enough now? Even in Deadguy, there are so many other cards I'd want to be playing.

I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong in playing a straight either GB Rock list or Eva Green, I just think many times, white gives you some much more flexibility. However, if your meta is full of Blood Moon, then play it, but generally, people aren't dealing with that. There's also the option of Nic Fit if you want to have the option of lots of basics, and it gives you lots of raw power in your threats.

I think if I were running Eva Green (a more sligh build), I'd run:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tasigur

4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Unearth
1 Display of Dominance

21 lands

Board would look something like Deed, Grip, Display of Dominance, Needle, Golgari Charm, Extirpate/Surgical, etc.

If you were wanting straight BG Rock, you would just switch stuff like Dark Confidants to harder to deal with threats and more removal/walkers. Maybe something like:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Phyrexian Obliterator
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Ulvenwald Tracker

4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Garruk Relentless
2 Top
3 Sylvan Library
2 GSZ
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Display of Dominance

Obliterator and Tracker seems pretty lols, and Relentless can be a beating with Tracker as well.

I think white gives you more long game, in a sense. You get a bit more flexible removal with STP, and your long game and TNN game is better with Equipment. Up to you, though :)

-Matt

Trying this lately:

3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Savannah
3 Windswept Heath
1 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Siege Rhino

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Display of Dominance

1 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I cut down on a Swamp to fit in the Display of Dominance. Maybe it's not good enough, but we'll see. I cut Rhinos for some sessions on Cockatrice, but that guy is pretty fat and I liked having him. Time will tell with testing.

-Matt

Probably not the exact right thread, but I brainstormed this junk deck at lunch, gonna test it later this evening, looks hilarious at the least.

4 Mom
4 Shaman
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 KotR

2 Thoughtsieze
4 StP
4 Decay
4 Collected Company

Couldn't fit in SFM :( thoughts on this monstrosity?

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Probably not the exact right thread, but I brainstormed this junk deck at lunch, gonna test it later this evening, looks hilarious at the least.

4 Mom
4 Shaman
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Bob
4 Goyf
4 KotR

2 Thoughtsieze
4 StP
4 Decay
4 Collected Company

Couldn't fit in SFM :( thoughts on this monstrosity?

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I actually like this kind of build. My quick take: I think Collected Company needs to be played with "come into play" triggers. Or just a ton of value stuff. CC --> Dude + SFM is the christmas land you want. Part of me believes Bant is the better shell because you can out-value everyone with Shardless Agent + CC in the same 60. However, much like Bant.dec, you gotta pick 4 or 5 key creatures to build around. Do you want it green-focused? Do you want it white-focused? Do you want it multi/gold-focused? A sampling of all 3 colors means you're relatively unfocused. Similarly, I can see Discard #1 + Liliana/Discard #2 + Decay being the only protection you need. You'll just out-value the opponent by dumping a bunch of stuff on the table and removing their answers.

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Originally Posted by Warden

I actually like this kind of build.

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And so do I. In Modern where any piece of shit is possible and you can run flawlessly with thirty-five creatures. But, much to my dismay, it just doesn't work in Legacy. Not because Knight+friend or CIPT triggers are bad (hellooo Fleshbag Marauder), but because you still can't get the creature count that you need. How many non-creatures does that have? 14? Not exactly my choices for the fourteen, but I was never able to trim it much lower either without gimping myself either. Anyway, add in lands to that mix, and you're looking at about twenty-three qualified creatures tops.

That's not enough to prevent wiffing. Yes, it's absolutely earth shattering magnificence when Collected Company hits two, regardless of the two, but you cannot wiff on even one creature or you go broke.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

And so do I. In Modern where any piece of shit is possible and you can run flawlessly with thirty-five creatures. But, much to my dismay, it just doesn't work in Legacy. Not because Knight+friend or CIPT triggers are bad (hellooo Fleshbag Marauder), but because you still can't get the creature count that you need. How many non-creatures does that have? 14? Not exactly my choices for the fourteen, but I was never able to trim it much lower either without gimping myself either. Anyway, add in lands to that mix, and you're looking at about twenty-three qualified creatures tops.

That's not enough to prevent wiffing. Yes, it's absolutely earth shattering magnificence when Collected Company hits two, regardless of the two, but you cannot wiff on even one creature or you go broke.

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Haven't been following this site too closely lately...has anyone done the math on Company to see what the percentages for hitting two in the top 6 are?

I'm not sure that even if you ran enough to make it really consistent that it's that much better than good old GSZ. I can't really think of a matchup other than maybe Pox where two random creatures > one specific creature. I suppose it puts more pressure on Miracles and screws with Jace, but so does GSZ for Thrun, and it's easier to push through Counterbalance.

Hell, I might even rather have Mastery of the Unseen. At least for 4 mana that guarantees you at least a 2/2 EOT, it's a repeatable effect, and it gets stupid good with Library in the late game.

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Originally Posted by Richard Cheese

Haven't been following this site too closely lately...has anyone done the math on Company to see what the percentages for hitting two in the top 6 are?

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It's pretty simple math. The easiest way to think of it is that each creature is effectively one tenth of a creature when you're revealing for Collected Company.

Also, in something closer to a Maverick list, you do need to cut some number of GSZ when running Collected Company for reasons of "it's not a creature" and because its late game effectiveness becomes somewhat usurped. But the real cards you're looking to very literally replace with Collected Company are the equipment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

It's pretty simple math. The easiest way to think of it is that each creature is effectively one tenth of a creature when you're revealing for Collected Company.

Also, in something closer to a Maverick list, you do need to cut some number of GSZ when running Collected Company for reasons of "it's not a creature" and because its late game effectiveness becomes somewhat usurped. But the real cards you're looking to very literally replace with Collected Company are the equipment.

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Is it as simple as you need 2 cards out of every 6 in your deck to be creatures, so you need at least 20 to have a decent chance? Or do you need to creep up to 24-25?

The thing about CC to remember is, even if you only hit one creature, if it's CMC3, you just got an instant speed GSZ.

I think you are right about Modern though, in modern cards like Blade Splicer are nice to grab whereas in legacy it's kind of meh. (Thanks Terminus). Obviously you live the dream of casting it and getting like Kitchen Finks - Fleshbag Marauder but again, sort of meh in Legacy.

One thing to watch is the Origins planeswalkers... the Lili is a CMC 3 creature, and is an intriguing card.

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Originally Posted by maharis

Is it as simple as you need 2 cards out of every 6 in your deck to be creatures, so you need at least 20 to have a decent chance? Or do you need to creep up to 24-25?

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I haven't done the exact math in terms of where the extremes lie, but 23-24 is clearly terrible. Based on that, I would say 26-28 is manageable, and 28+ is optimal. It's tough to judge not only because I haven't done anything other than find an average, but also because there's nothing gained on the "amazing" side of the odds. Really you're just looking to net any two creatures at all, so seeing six isn't that much better than seeing exactly two.

Like, if you roll two d6s, seven is average. Less than seven sucks, and higher than seven should be great. But with Collected Company, higher than seven is basically just seven.

I do still love Collected Company. I've got a few Modern lists chugging along nicely in terms of development, mostly hindered by the fact that I despise Modern and rarely set aside time to deal with anything regarding it. But Legacy I feel like development is stalled until they eventually print more creatures that generate consistency. As it stands now, we have a poor choice between wiffing with the card the deck is built around, or trading out our Sylvan Libraries and our Green Suns and our STPs for more mana dorks and other filler.


*sent from phone

Article on Collected Company math, minimum 22 creatures:

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ons-of-tarkir/

3rd Place at GPT report.

Played a 50 man GPT for Kyoto in Japan on the weekend and after 6 rounds of swiss I lost in the semifinals (7-2), my friend won with URw delver paying myth realized. Which was annoying because if I won my semi, I’m sure I would have crushed him in the final! Anyways here’s my deck, not much has changed from a post I made a few months ago (skip to the end for some thoughts on the deck):

4 TS
3 IoK
4 StP
4 Decay

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
38

4 Verd Catac
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Treetop Village
22

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed

Round 1, Dredge 0-2:
G1: Great. Made a mistake, forgot that if I blocked with my SFM against an early zombie token I would exile his bridges… Whoops.
Side: -4 TS, -3 IoK, -2 Souls, -4 StP (a mistake I rectify later) -1 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgEx, +2 Needle (Cephalid Colleseum), +2 Canonist (a mistake I rectify later), +2 ContPriest, +3 Thalia, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed. So yea, everything.
G2: Mulligan to 5, haven’t seen a DRS in both games, don’t find hate and just die. A great start! But I redeem myself later.
Thoughts: Wish I kept in some STP to remove blockers because I have to beat down.

Round 2, Esper Miracles 2-1:
G1: I see a top and get excited! However, as the game drags on I draw a clump of 4-5 lands and I just don’t get there.
Side: -2 Iok, -4 StP // +2 Needle, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed.
G2: Grind him down, souls and equipment slowly get there.
G3: He plays Monastery swiftspear, which I’m fine with, staring at a deed in my hand. Again, we slowly grind out, but tree top village and bob gets there.
Thoughts: Having so many threats (lingering souls and treetop soo good) and removal for their tops, balances and misguided sideboard plans, plus teeg and needle make it a pretty fun matchup in my opinion.

Round 3, Goblins 2-0:
Usually a fine match up, but he had such a fast start I was sure I had no chance, but two top decked StP later and I stabilised and it was easy from there. Same in game 2 really.
Side: -3 Iok, -1 TS // +2 Needle, 2 ContPriest, 2 Deed
Thoughts: The removal suite, the blocking machines (goyf and souls) plus SFM inevitability make this pretty favourable.

Round 4, Dredge 2-1:
G1: Great, I’m the one that gets to play dredge twice. I have a turn 1 DRS though, and am doing ok.. but he slowly overwhelms me as I don’t draw a decay to answer his bridges.
Side: -4 TS, -3 Iok, -2 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgExt, +2 Needle, +2 ContPriest, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed
G2&3: I never really draw sideboard cards except needle, but DRS, Goyf beats, Decay on a spare shaman and STP get there both games.
Thoughts: Needle on the land is really useful, and some variants play griselbrand. DRS is so important, mulligan hard.

Round 5, OmniTell 2-1:
G1: Finally! I get to test against a blue based combo deck! After a TS and a library, I’m beating him down with goyf, shaman and bob, he cantrips billions, plays show n tell, for omni, casts dig and casts emrakul, he takes extra turn but has to pass because I have him so low and I survive the swing, I attack in next turn, get him to 3, but losing my goyf, it wasn’t good enough, he annihilates my stuff and I can only get him to 1 with my shaman. As I’m sideboarding, I realise I could have won if I used my library differently and it feels bad.
Side: -1 SFM, -1 Jitte, -4 StP, -4 Decay // +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia
G2: Discard and hate bears! :D
G3: Discard and hate bears! :D
Thoughts: It wasn’t easy, but my deck essentially won 3 games.

Round 6, Dark Maverick 2-0:
G1: He has two mums, but I have discard for his other threats and 2 SFM, I engineer an attack where he is tempted to use both his moms to block and I StP one. Eventually we both have Jittes and have a staring match, but I just have the overwhelming advantage from my creature count and he concedes
Side: -4 TS // +2 Needle, +2 Deed
G2: I have the edge again, but he claws back with a knight and a SoLaS to my Bob with a SoFaI. Fearing wasteland, and I say fuck it, and blow up the world with deed, knowing I have a SFM in hand and a tree top in play.
Thoughts: I honestly don’t know why dark maverick is a deck. They don’t interact enough to be midrange or control or a D&T variant, and they aren’t quick enough to be aggro. So what are they? I guess he was trying to go bigger than me, but I have more card advantage because of Bob, and more removal.

Top 8, as number 1 seed.

Quarters, Pox Reanimater 2-1:
G1: Turn 1 DRS goes all the way. Yay! I think he is on straight reanimator.
Side: -4 SFM, -3 Equipment, -2 Souls, -2 Decay (saw Animate Dead)
+2 Ext, +2 Needle (griselbrand), +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +3 Thalia
G2: We grind down into top deck more, he then casts small pox, followed by liliana (whaa?!), reanimates my bob and shaman and then proceded to draw more removal spells. I kill the shaman, hoping I can get him to bob triggers off of a griselbrand. Several turns later I’m down to 4 and he is still hitting me with it, I make a call and flash in my priest to block it. He animates dead his ashen rider, and next turn he draws the griselbrand! This would have killed him off the bob trigger if I had waited! I’m sure I made the right call though.
Side: Move 2 souls back in, and take out 2 canonists.
G3: We grind to a standstill again, and he gets a liliana, noo! It’s slipping away! I draw nothing, he plays deed, I draw needle, play it and name deed. He draws nothing, I draw souls! JUSTICE!
Thoughts: Weird games.

Semis, Grixis Delver with Shaman, 1-2:
G1: He has TNN, 2 pyros and 8 tokens. I have a BSK with a SoFaI ;)
Side: -4 TS, -1 Library // +3 Thalia, +2 Deed
G2: I mulligan to 5 and get stifled and stuck off white mana for my removal spells, feels bad
G3: Mullgian again and get stifled again, he gets an early delver down, I manage to answer it after some hits. I Iok him and he gets me with the spellpierce-redierect card, he’s got me with it before (he is a local and a good player), I choose to discard my gofy to play my SFM because I need to gain life. He drains me with shaman next turn, and double bolts me, so didn’t have a chance either way.
Thoughts: Stifle is so annoying. And not much I can do it about it, except play around it where I can. It just makes me wish I was playing less fetchlands, but 8 is right, right?

Overall Thoughts: It’s hard playing a fair deck without brainstorm and force of will, but I think this deck gets there with its ridiculous amount of redundancy and white hatebears in the side.

I keep thinking that I should play another land, because when I mulligan it gets difficult to rely on having 2 decent ones between 4 wasteland and 2 treetops (which I would never cut, card is horribly underrated, especially with equipment). However, I always found 23 a bit too many.

Liliana was cut a while ago because she is expensive, costs double black, too slow against combo, and everyone is running tokens. Definitely no regrets there. SFM is a bit lackluster for me right now, she requires so much mana to be effective.. but she is the only “oops I win card” in the deck, and I can’t think of anything else that could replace her. I think I will go down to 3 though, which would allow me to add a 23rd land. Of the Equipment, SoFaI and BSK over perform, and Jitte is amazing.. But I can’t help but think that SoFaI kills tribal decks almost as well as Jitte does, and BSK is just as good as gaining life. If I were to cut Jitte, I think I would add the 3rd lingering souls, that card always overperforms, is useful in more matchups and another answer to delver.

Out of the side, I like the hatebear idea a lot. The only cards I’m really thinking about are the 3rd thalia, and 2 surgical extractions. I want another effective card against delver decks, all I can think of is disfigure or another sweeper (EE, Deluge, Eng Plague or Golgari charm).. Any help here?

This will definitely be the deck I’m playing at GP Kyoto though, any thoughts, critiques and questions are welcome and encouraged. Cheers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I haven't done the exact math in terms of where the extremes lie, but 23-24 is clearly terrible. Based on that, I would say 26-28 is manageable, and 28+ is optimal. It's tough to judge not only because I haven't done anything other than find an average, but also because there's nothing gained on the "amazing" side of the odds. Really you're just looking to net any two creatures at all, so seeing six isn't that much better than seeing exactly two.

Like, if you roll two d6s, seven is average. Less than seven sucks, and higher than seven should be great. But with Collected Company, higher than seven is basically just seven.

I do still love Collected Company. I've got a few Modern lists chugging along nicely in terms of development, mostly hindered by the fact that I despise Modern and rarely set aside time to deal with anything regarding it. But Legacy I feel like development is stalled until they eventually print more creatures that generate consistency. As it stands now, we have a poor choice between wiffing with the card the deck is built around, or trading out our Sylvan Libraries and our Green Suns and our STPs for more mana dorks and other filler.


*sent from phone

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I don't even know how to do the math for Collected Company. I feel it's a matter of deck manipulation (think Miracles using SDT and cantrips to find their removal). I think SDT, which pairs nicely with Bob, help considerably with Collected Company.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

Round 1, Dredge 0-2:
G1: Great. Made a mistake, forgot that if I blocked with my SFM against an early zombie token I would exile his bridges… Whoops.
Side: -4 TS, -3 IoK, -2 Souls, -4 StP (a mistake I rectify later) -1 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgEx, +2 Needle (Cephalid Colleseum), +2 Canonist (a mistake I rectify later), +2 ContPriest, +3 Thalia, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed. So yea, everything.
G2: Mulligan to 5, haven’t seen a DRS in both games, don’t find hate and just die. A great start! But I redeem myself later.
Thoughts: Wish I kept in some STP to remove blockers because I have to beat down.

Round 2, Esper Miracles 2-1:
G1: I see a top and get excited! However, as the game drags on I draw a clump of 4-5 lands and I just don’t get there.
Side: -2 Iok, -4 StP // +2 Needle, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed.
G2: Grind him down, souls and equipment slowly get there.
G3: He plays Monastery swiftspear, which I’m fine with, staring at a deed in my hand. Again, we slowly grind out, but tree top village and bob gets there.
Thoughts: Having so many threats (lingering souls and treetop soo good) and removal for their tops, balances and misguided sideboard plans, plus teeg and needle make it a pretty fun matchup in my opinion.

Round 3, Goblins 2-0:
Usually a fine match up, but he had such a fast start I was sure I had no chance, but two top decked StP later and I stabilised and it was easy from there. Same in game 2 really.
Side: -3 Iok, -1 TS // +2 Needle, 2 ContPriest, 2 Deed
Thoughts: The removal suite, the blocking machines (goyf and souls) plus SFM inevitability make this pretty favourable.

Round 4, Dredge 2-1:
G1: Great, I’m the one that gets to play dredge twice. I have a turn 1 DRS though, and am doing ok.. but he slowly overwhelms me as I don’t draw a decay to answer his bridges.
Side: -4 TS, -3 Iok, -2 SFM, -1 SoFaI
+2 SurgExt, +2 Needle, +2 ContPriest, +2 Teeg, +2 Deed
G2&3: I never really draw sideboard cards except needle, but DRS, Goyf beats, Decay on a spare shaman and STP get there both games.
Thoughts: Needle on the land is really useful, and some variants play griselbrand. DRS is so important, mulligan hard.

Round 5, OmniTell 2-1:
G1: Finally! I get to test against a blue based combo deck! After a TS and a library, I’m beating him down with goyf, shaman and bob, he cantrips billions, plays show n tell, for omni, casts dig and casts emrakul, he takes extra turn but has to pass because I have him so low and I survive the swing, I attack in next turn, get him to 3, but losing my goyf, it wasn’t good enough, he annihilates my stuff and I can only get him to 1 with my shaman. As I’m sideboarding, I realise I could have won if I used my library differently and it feels bad.
Side: -1 SFM, -1 Jitte, -4 StP, -4 Decay // +2 Surgical, +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +2 Teeg, +3 Thalia
G2: Discard and hate bears! :D
G3: Discard and hate bears! :D
Thoughts: It wasn’t easy, but my deck essentially won 3 games.

Round 6, Dark Maverick 2-0:
G1: He has two mums, but I have discard for his other threats and 2 SFM, I engineer an attack where he is tempted to use both his moms to block and I StP one. Eventually we both have Jittes and have a staring match, but I just have the overwhelming advantage from my creature count and he concedes
Side: -4 TS // +2 Needle, +2 Deed
G2: I have the edge again, but he claws back with a knight and a SoLaS to my Bob with a SoFaI. Fearing wasteland, and I say fuck it, and blow up the world with deed, knowing I have a SFM in hand and a tree top in play.
Thoughts: I honestly don’t know why dark maverick is a deck. They don’t interact enough to be midrange or control or a D&T variant, and they aren’t quick enough to be aggro. So what are they? I guess he was trying to go bigger than me, but I have more card advantage because of Bob, and more removal.

Top 8, as number 1 seed.

Quarters, Pox Reanimater 2-1:
G1: Turn 1 DRS goes all the way. Yay! I think he is on straight reanimator.
Side: -4 SFM, -3 Equipment, -2 Souls, -2 Decay (saw Animate Dead)
+2 Ext, +2 Needle (griselbrand), +2 Canonist, +2 Priest, +3 Thalia
G2: We grind down into top deck more, he then casts small pox, followed by liliana (whaa?!), reanimates my bob and shaman and then proceded to draw more removal spells. I kill the shaman, hoping I can get him to bob triggers off of a griselbrand. Several turns later I’m down to 4 and he is still hitting me with it, I make a call and flash in my priest to block it. He animates dead his ashen rider, and next turn he draws the griselbrand! This would have killed him off the bob trigger if I had waited! I’m sure I made the right call though.
Side: Move 2 souls back in, and take out 2 canonists.
G3: We grind to a standstill again, and he gets a liliana, noo! It’s slipping away! I draw nothing, he plays deed, I draw needle, play it and name deed. He draws nothing, I draw souls! JUSTICE!
Thoughts: Weird games.

Semis, Grixis Delver with Shaman, 1-2:
G1: He has TNN, 2 pyros and 8 tokens. I have a BSK with a SoFaI ;)
Side: -4 TS, -1 Library // +3 Thalia, +2 Deed
G2: I mulligan to 5 and get stifled and stuck off white mana for my removal spells, feels bad
G3: Mullgian again and get stifled again, he gets an early delver down, I manage to answer it after some hits. I Iok him and he gets me with the spellpierce-redierect card, he’s got me with it before (he is a local and a good player), I choose to discard my gofy to play my SFM because I need to gain life. He drains me with shaman next turn, and double bolts me, so didn’t have a chance either way.
Thoughts: Stifle is so annoying. And not much I can do it about it, except play around it where I can. It just makes me wish I was playing less fetchlands, but 8 is right, right?

Overall Thoughts: It’s hard playing a fair deck without brainstorm and force of will, but I think this deck gets there with its ridiculous amount of redundancy and white hatebears in the side.

I keep thinking that I should play another land, because when I mulligan it gets difficult to rely on having 2 decent ones between 4 wasteland and 2 treetops (which I would never cut, card is horribly underrated, especially with equipment). However, I always found 23 a bit too many.

Liliana was cut a while ago because she is expensive, costs double black, too slow against combo, and everyone is running tokens. Definitely no regrets there. SFM is a bit lackluster for me right now, she requires so much mana to be effective.. but she is the only “oops I win card” in the deck, and I can’t think of anything else that could replace her. I think I will go down to 3 though, which would allow me to add a 23rd land. Of the Equipment, SoFaI and BSK over perform, and Jitte is amazing.. But I can’t help but think that SoFaI kills tribal decks almost as well as Jitte does, and BSK is just as good as gaining life. If I were to cut Jitte, I think I would add the 3rd lingering souls, that card always overperforms, is useful in more matchups and another answer to delver.

Out of the side, I like the hatebear idea a lot. The only cards I’m really thinking about are the 3rd thalia, and 2 surgical extractions. I want another effective card against delver decks, all I can think of is disfigure or another sweeper (EE, Deluge, Eng Plague or Golgari charm).. Any help here?

This will definitely be the deck I’m playing at GP Kyoto though, any thoughts, critiques and questions are welcome and encouraged. Cheers.

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Did deed work well for you? Seems a bit slowly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

4 TS
3 IoK
4 StP
4 Decay

4 DRS
4 Goyf
4 Bob
4 SFM
2 Sylvan Library
2 Lingering Souls
1 Jitte
1 SoFaI
1 BSK
38

4 Verd Catac
2 Marshflats
2 Windswept
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Treetop Village
22

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
3 Thalia
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Pernicious Deed

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Very cool build.

The Thalias out of the board are interesting but make sense.
Also like that you went with Treetop Villages and not Dryad Arbor, which can carry equipment well.
I think 3x Libraries are better than 2x. Maybe cut a Bob?

Double post here as I wanted to share testing results.

I'm running sdematt's latest Junk Blade list, and played a couple practice games vs. Miracles, Delver, and Shardless Bug.

Observations -- maindeck:
- Lingering Souls: the nuts. Easily the best card in Miracles and BUG matchups. I didn't know before, and now I do.
- Not running Batterskull is a decent choice in these matchups, especially with Dryad Arbor as a possibility for equipping Swords + no real way to protect Stoneforge Mystic via Mom. If they strand Batterskull in your hand, it really sucks.
- Siege Rhino feels underwhelming. In almost all matchups, I wish it were a Lilliana. There aren't enough ways to find it (1x GSZ), and it's not always easy getting to 4 colored mana. Moreover, the only ramp is DRS. I would prefer running Rhino in Junk Nic Fit instead.
- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

Observations -- sideboard:
- Carpet of Flowers underperformed. I almost always wished it were Choke instead. There's not much I really want to ramp into.
- Display of Dominance wasn't so hot. It stopped Decay here and there, but whenever I drew it, I wish it were more proactive disruption like Maelstrom Pulse instead.

At the risk of offending everybody on the thread, I think it's better to go hard Maverick or Junk Nic Fit as alternative options. Of course it's dependent on playstyle. Maybe I just appreciate Rhino and Stoneforge in other shells more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Plague Sliver

- There's a case to be made for going down from 3 to 2 Sylvan Libraries.

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Aaand there it is.