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I'm going to test a greenless build over the next week as Miracles has died out according to some results. There also hasn't been any need for Massacre if you look at the results, if you really want to run Massacre you could run it over Pyroclasm in the sideboard below:
3 Pyroblast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
Other event with tes.
4-1
2-0 white stax
G1 y miss play with bs and cost almost the game but my opp is at 14 with a tabernacle and a chalice on 2. The turn before i die i just go. Ponder. Petals. Infernal he counters with chalice. Rituals duress wish. He says ok and forgets his chalice LOL and tendrills him.
G2 he mulls t5 gg
2-0 gwb zenith
G1 turn 2 naseam
G2 turn t3 pyroclasm a tegg, thalia, and canonist. T4 nauseam gg.
2-1 infect.
G1 I have t1 nauseam but could not get rid of his fow. Make 14 goblins. And he just has agent. He has berserk and topdecks invigirate
G2 i combo t2.
G3 long came i need a discard fir fluster. End up drawing it and win playing around piracy charm when im dead on board next turn.
1-2 goldigger(same guy as yesterday)
G1 my hand is nuts but in 9 turn i dont draw a 2nd ims and loose.
G2 14 goblins make the job.
G3 he draws his only white leyline and my 3 discards and so never get there.
2-0 elfs
G1 t2 combo
G2 t2 pyriclasm his 4 elfs. He only has ruric a d bayou in hand. Next turn i go of.
I played a weird sb.
2 surgical
2 decay
2 pyroclasm
1 bayou
1 infernal
1 pif
1 empty
1 void snare
1 tendrills
1 massacre
Put massacre back in because at the event where some taxes players.
Put in surgical because there where some usual stormers/reanimators.
Cutted one decay because there where 0 miracles players
Cutted on xantid because i have + 2 reanimatir cards and lately no one plays sneak and show.
@Bryant
Like new sb but i dont like the 2 pithing. Would play + clasm +1 massacre or even a 3rd clasm to sb 2 in let one sb.
Also, you changed your mana base to afford more red cards?
Without Needle or Swarm, Sensei's Divining Top becomes very good against you. Without Decay, shutting down Sensei's Diving Top becomes even more important.Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
I play more or less the same list as every one else, I switch between 8 blue fetchlands, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island and SB tropical and 8 fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 island, 1 swamp, SB bayou and I'm not certain which manabase is better, the first is more stable but the second is faster fwiw so I think it depends on how aggressively you're trying to win on T2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelikanudo
Other than that, I still run Thoughtseize over Duress because of Clique/Mage and keep the 4th Infernal Tutor in the SB and the 3rd Chrome Mox in the MD, mainly because I cut Diminishing Returns and Bribery awhile ago and don't like to be dead to Goblins in the middle game or have to wait for Past in Flames in the late game.
Other than that, still have a SB Thoughtseize and 1 Pyroblast to be able to wish for disruption or draw removal for Mage off Nauseam, also messing around with running a 3 Underground, 2 Volcanic manabase and SBing both of the basics and bayou in order to have a more flexible manabase pre and then solid, or biggger manabase post as I don't really go for stuff like graveyard hate and just accept Reanimator is a bad match up.
Don't really think Gemstone Mine is the way to go unless you're playing Silence or Autumn's Veil, I really prefer being able to build a manabase while not losing that much speed overall. I mean, it's more important that our opponent feels threatened by a T2 win than it is to actually have a T2 win because we want him to have to mulligan into counters/disruption and have the ability to last into the middle game regardless. I kind of feel like the deck is becoming a little slower than old TES and a lot faster than TPS if that makes any sense at all. And also card quality aside, Gemstone is such an obvious tell that you're playing combo - where if you Misty for an Underground they'll put you on BUG etc.
I always liked Autumn's Veil btw, I think like 4 Duress, 3 Veil and a MD Bayou with the Gemstone manabase would be pretty interesting if RUG ever retakes the meta.
As far as Island goes, even tho' it doesn't set up for the T2 win by having two lands that produce both B and R in and of itself, I think the logic is that you wouldn't fetch Island if you didn't have a cantrip in hand, and if you do dig 3 to 4 cards deeper the likelyhood is you'll hit the Petal/Mox for the missing B or R mana. I mean I played 8 blue fetchlands and Island for a really long time, and I never seemed to have serious problems going off on T2 so I'm kind of suspicious of Swamp to be honest because naturally drawing into T1 disruption, T2 win is kind of "pie in the sky" where Island is pragmatically saying we don't always start with perfect hands and need to start digging for the missing pieces.
Also at Lemnear, people didn't move to the fetchland manabase as soon as they moved to discard, that happened after they moved to discard and I think after I moved to all fetchlands because I remember being on 8 U fetch, 2 underground, 1 volcanic, 1 badland, 1 island while other people were still using gemstones, after which I took a break from the game and missed the Treasure Cruise meta where it seems every body is playing a fetchland manabase now (altho' slightly different).
I think there's room to disagree on how to do things regarding the manabase, disruption and SB, I mean 8 fetch, island, badlands is incredibly good vs RUG, but maybe not as good vs some kind of UW deck with Wasteland and SB Meddling Mages etc. where you want to Thoughtseize to get rid of the hate bear and protect your mana vs a Wasteland. That's probably more relevant for like Death and Taxes or whatever, but the changes on a whole are kind of marginal and mostly suited to the meta or play style preference.
Any way that's my 10 cents, I flip flop between different mana bases and disruption suites so I don't think anything is really objectively better right now, altho I think SBing land is really underrated and too many people are just playing SB cards strictly for really bad match ups like Reanimator when they could be experimenting with more out of the box stuff like that.
Edit: Also with the basics I think Time Spiral is worth taking a look at as you can actually get like 3 land into play for a "3 mana" D7 and it's a win condition between Empty the Warrens being too slow, Past in Flames not having a large enough graveyard to win and Wish -> Infernal -> Ad Nauseam costing 1 more mana - it's my current pet card.
Maybe there's something I am missing, but what's the correct play when your hand is:
Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Burning Wish, Dark Ritual
And you have 1 Underground Sea in Play (using Bryant's 02/12/15 list).
It seems like you ought to be able to win (and you definitely could with an Ad Nauseam in the wishboard), you can go for a sublethal EtW, but that seems suboptimal.
Whenever I try to draw out of it, I frequently end up hitting non-relevant stuff (discard/additional burning wishes).
Drawing into a 2nd LED/Dark Ritual makes a PiF loop possible (Play Petal, LED x2; Crack petal for red; play Dark Rit(BBBR); play burning wish(BB) crack LEDs for RRRBBBBB, get PiF; cast Pif (RRBB); Flash back Dark Rit (RRBBBB) Flashback Burning Wish (RBBB); Get Tendrils and Tendrils for 18.) Dark Ritual = Tendrils for 20; Which is fine, but if you don't draw either of those or Infernal it can be quite awkward. 1 s/b Ad Nauseam gets around this though.
Not sure if you're looking at this correctly, but Ad Nauseum is an instant, so it can't be tutored with Burning Wish. If you had a maindeck Ad Nauseum and an Infernal Tutor, that line would be possible but it's still up to chance whether you can draw into a kill or not (land drop made and zero floating seems loose, you could always just sculpt a hand with Ad Nauseum and look to go off another turn.)Quote:
Originally Posted by atosecond
Play USea and cast Petal, Ritual, LED, Wish (crack LED for red), Empty the Warrens is 10 goblins. You're right, it's suboptimal in that it's worse than storming out and killing with a lethal tendrils on turn 1. But a lot of fair decks have trouble with 10 goblins on turn 1. Outside of various board sweeps (Zealous Persecution, Golgari Charm, Echoing Truth,) or hate permanents (Tabernacle, Glacial Chasm,) you're in a pretty good position to win within the next 2-3 turns.
...except that it's a 3 turn clock once your opponent Drops a DRS/SFM/Nettle sentinel and your plan goes down the drain by turn 3.
Trust me: 10 Goblins is not enough against Elves for example.
Yes, you're right of course. I don't know why I keep thinking Ad Nauseam is a sorcery.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesture
I've played a couple of matches where the EtW just doesn't quite get there (usually due to lifegain on a batterskull or a lucky miracle'd terminus ,etc.)
It just seems like there ought to be a way to surefire win from that situation, but I can't seem to find it.
There is no guaranteed way to win from that situation (unless you have Bribery in the SB and play against something running Blightsteel Colossus/Emrakul/Griselbrand)Quote:
Originally Posted by atosecond
You can't draw into a PiF loop with this hand. Burning Wish exiles itself on use so you can't flashback it.Quote:
Originally Posted by atosecond
As Lemnear already said...10 Goblins are not enough in most cases and this seems not to be turn 1 or did we already take a mulligan twice?
Regards Chris
Yeah, you are right, obviously. I should stop posting at 1 am. I was gold fishing hands and had 2 BW when I had this hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mindlash
Ok...I would take a mulligan probably. There is nothing reliable you can do with this hand i guess. It is the Anna Kournikova of T.E.S. hands...looks sweet...but doesn't win often ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by atosecond
Would you mind posting your full list? I'm experimenting with different land configurations right now and would love to see what your deck looks like because I'm currently weighing up whether or not to buy a Badlands. With the second manabase, is casting Rite ever difficult?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
1) don't buy a Badlands. We covered the topic like a million times already. It does not fix any existing problems with colors.Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnza
2) No, casting RoF is not an issue if you play smart with the red spells and only fetch for your red Dual in the turn you plan to combo. If you need RB turn two off two IMS, don't fetch for Island. Pretty obvious.
I tested today the non green list.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Flooded Strand
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
2 Pithing needle
2 Chain of vapore
3 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Void Snare
1 Infernal Tutor
1 Massacre
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
2-0 esper omnitell with rector
G1 he mulls to 5 gg
G2 he keeps a bad hand and end loosing fast
I disnt saw any white g1 so i disint sided the surgicals
-1 empty
-2 ponder
-1 island
-1 mox
+2 chain
+3 pyro
2-1 gw zenith
My opp usualy plays elves. And he starts fetch savanah deathrite. So I think he plays elves spashing white and tries to confuse me. I go fetch usea petal. Infernal copy ritual because I have nauseam in hand so i can go off turn 2. He was on gw zenith. Wasteland my land and plays a tegg. I dont draw land in 5 turns. So im dead. In hinsight fetching the underground was a mistake. But putting him on another deck and his elvish start made me think weird.
G2 10 goblins t1
G3 therapy thalia, massacre canonist. Play around the mindcesor he obv telegraphed after passing turn 2 times after seeing my masacre with 3 lands and a sylvan library in hand.
-3 duress
+2 chain
+1 infernal
0-2 sneak and show
G1 he has a hand that does nothing. And im missing a discard to get rid of his force after therapying 2 ponder t1 when he didnt have the fow. My turn 2 end he brainstorms and on his turn 3 he plays land, petal, sneak petal and his last card is emrakul.
G2 his hand is. Flooded, petal, pierce, fow, show and tell, 2 griselbrands when i gutaxian him. I have no discard. But mana and combo. I brainstorm agresively to may be find discard of a petal or pyroblast. But its not good enought and no discard. He plays land go. I play infernal to get a led and shuffle. He plays land show and tell griselbrand. Do its over. Obv next card drew was pithing. Wich he forces. I try to go off but another fow ended the game.
-1 empty
-2 ponder
-1 mox
-1 island
+3 pyroblast
+2 pithing
2-1 reset hight tide
G1 Im on the play giraxian him see no fow and land 10 goblins
G2 he has a full grip of counters and beatmedown with one vendilion and a second after i retry to go off.
G3 its a lond long gane because his hand are 2 flusters 2 fows. So we play a long game. On one turn he has a venidlion and im at 5. I draw pyroblast and had infernal, nauseam, 2 dark rituals. 4 lands in play. And on field 3 leds 1 petal. I pyroblast his vendi and he lets resolve. Next turn i draw land and pass. As i know he only has 2 fluster because He already used one fow and i discarted the other. I draw land and pass. So at 5 i go eot nauseam he lets resolve. And i reveal led, burning, burning going to 1. On my turn burning on pif. Ritual he flusters, ritual he flusters again and now he has 5 lands and 2 cards in hand. Now i play another burning and crack red black off 2 leds he lets resolve and i grab tendrills and win. Having mana and infernal in grave for the pif.
-1 mox
-1 empty
-1 ponder
+3 pyro
1-2 jund
G1 I duress one of his thouseize, my hand has 2 tutors and he discards a ritual, i draw another and im one mana short of going off. He plays a goyf. And i draw burning, burning empty. And end up being able to cast nauseam at 5 lives and die.
G2 he keeps a loose hand of 5 lands ooze seize. And I have 2 tutors ritual led. So he discards led. I draw a mana source and win.
G3 plays a t2 goyf after a t1 inquisition on infernal. I rip nauseam. And on 20 lives without revealing empty and with a rof, a mox and a led used. And landrop made and no mana. I reveal a bunch of tutors, cantrips, and discard. And the only mana source is a lone petal of 25~ cards. So bad beats and loose.
So end result:
Missed xantid a lot. Would have used 3/5 rounds them.
Pyroblast was fine but 2 would be ok because sidding the card for the 3rd out was not always making me happy.
Pithing came late as always. But I think is just bad luck.
Chain of vapor was fine.
Missed may be play pyroclasm side have liked them lately a lot.
Basics where good. This time the island never came bad.
Decay would have never really good. Also because I didnt faced miracles. But there were 3 miracles decks. 2 of them just uw.
I do think the basics are the way to go. Liked them and just because if that i have lately liked tes more than ant because it lets u play better lobg games vs wasteland decks.
That's an over simplification, Badlands after Island sets up for a T3 win following cantrip and discard, the doesn't have to, nor does it often, kill on T2 vs aggro control. I think its a matter of play style more than anything else about whether you want to design your manabase to basically aim to goldfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
My local gaming store (Comic Connection in Oakville) is working very hard to build up a legacy scene. Now that you can play sanctioned Legacy (meaning getting planeswalker points for your performance) at Friday Night Magic, a small group of us are coming out every Friday night to play Legacy. We are usually getting at least 8 people, and hopefully word spreads that you can jam some Legacy with a bunch of non-judgemental players.
This week I was playing The Epic Storm and trying out the latest deck list from the creator of the deck, along with a sideboard that doesn't use any green cards in it.
In the first round I was matched against a Jund Loam deck. It's not a great match-up and I won in 2 pretty quick matches by creating 14 goblins on turn 3 in both games.
Round 2 I was up against Dave and his G/W Enchantress deck. I had never played against it before, but usually I feel pretty confident that I can beat any deck not playing blue, which means no countermagic. I lost game 1 when he managed to play Solitary Confinemente followed by Sterling Grove.
In games 2 and 3 I used Ad Nauseam to combo-kill him on turn 2 of both remaining games.
Then I played Edward and his Sneak and Show deck. He took game 1 on a turn 4 Emrakuhl, I won game 2 when I Jedi-mind tricked him into going under 10 life where a mini-Tendrils of Agony could kill him. In ganme 3 I couldn't draw enough discard spells to fight through all his permission spells.
It's a rough match-up, and if I don't assemble a wining hand by turn 4 I tend to lose to this deck.
I was 2-1 and thinking that I could win one more match and then actually get some store credit. For my last round I was up against a deck that I have had all sorts of trouble trying to figure out how to beat -- Miracles.
I stole game 1 when he didn't draw any permission spells (Tendrils kill on turn 3)...and then I spent the next two games miserably playing draw-go in the face of an active Counterbalance that made it impossible to manipulate my library or give me a way to force through a discard spell to get rid of the inevitable multiple permission spells he was holding. At least 3 times he used Brainstorm to set up the top of his deck so a counterbalance would stop what I was trying to do.
I was quite salty at the end of the match.
So. Frustrating.
As much as I like the power of storm decks, I am starting to get really frustrated playing them. It seems like there are two extremes -- either I kill the person on turn 2 or 3 or I lose. I am having an extremely hard time figuring out how to grind through all the permission and taxing effects I face every Friday. My friend tells me "just think how good you will be at playing against those decks at bigger tournaments" but all it does is make me understand how few turns I have to live in almost every single match.
I'd love to get some advice on how to deal with the sea of blue decks and Death-and-Taxes I have to face and some suggestions on how to edge out enough of an advantage to steal some wins. My meta currently looks like this:
* home brewed red-black deck, player is working towards legacy burn
* 3 Death-and-Taxes
* 2 Miracles
* Jund
* Cloudpost
* Punishing Loam
* Storm (me)
* Sneak and Show
* Enchantress
* LED Dredge
I have been extremely patient lately and not trying to combo off if the coast isn't clear, but I end so many games with 5+ cards in hand and nothing to do because I can't fight multiple hard counters.
How should Badlands survive till your turn three or provide you with BR in any case if your Rituals and Business spells are not color-matched?Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
It's totally pointless to start with an Island because you want to play around Wasteland, but expose your combo-color IMS for a whole turn. If you plan to use a third IMS for your turn 3 kill, Swamp is a million times better than Badlands to drop turn two, but my Main problem with some of you guys perception of an average game is that the T1/2 Discard followed by T2/3 combo (aka 6+ mana available plus a business Spell) through potential mana-disruption is just a fringe case to happen and nothing you should take guaranteed building the Rest of your deck and especially your manabase.
Wouldn't call this a sea of blue deck, but lets start from the beginning. Overwhelming your opponent early is the decks fundamental strength but we know that going for the long run isn't easy and against an active Counterbalance you have absolutely no realistic chance, so if your hand is kinda slow, digging for Decays or discarding it has absolute priority (even over your own combo attempt if you had to work towards it for a turn or two). If you can keep Counterbalance off the table, the High density of "Air" in Miracles will help you Grinding them out and once you stick Xantid (even if only used to flashback Cabal Ritual) you can pick apart the remaining defense. The method of delaying your opponents gameplan and sticking a Xantid to Trump their additional counters coming from the Sideboard is recommended also for 12-Post and SneakShow. For whatever reason your metagame lacks the really tricky blue matchups like Deathblade which confronted you with several attack angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by grmpytopdecker
For D&T I'm always a bit surprised why the matchup is considered a real Nightmare. It's either going for the Belcher-Mode before Thalia/Canonist/SFM can harm you, or slowrollen the matchup with uncracked Fetchlands until you can sweep the board and win (Vial'd in hatebears in your turn aside). The biggest mistake I constantly see in this matchup is people exposing Duals just to dig for stuff that might help them winning by turn 3 ... Just to see thei plans foiled by hatebears+Wasteland
P.S.: My offer to tune-in during a stream is still up
Wait, you stream live? On Twitch or so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I want to check that out. My time zone, good combo player, yes please! :wink: